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Stockholm and Lima Syndromes and the popularity of religious beliefs

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Stockholm Syndrome, according to Wikipedia,

"is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity.[1] These feelings, resulting from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time spent together, are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims. Generally speaking, Stockholm syndrome consists of "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."[2]

Further ahead, under the heading of "As a coping mechanism", the current version of that article adds:

"From a psychoanalytic lens, it can be argued that Stockholm syndrome arises strictly as a result of survival instincts. Strentz states, “the victim’s need to survive is stronger than his impulse to hate the person who has created the dilemma.” A positive emotional bond between captor and captive is a “defense mechanism of the ego under stress”.[4] These sentimental feelings are not strictly for show however. Since captives often fear that their affection will be perceived as fake, they eventually begin to believe that their positive sentiments are genuine."

The article also describes a complementary affliction, Lima Syndrome:

A similar form of Stockholm syndrome called Lima syndrome has been proposed, in which abductors develop sympathy for their hostages. There are many reasons why Lima syndrome can develop in abductors.[citation needed] Sometimes when there are multiple abductors, one or more of them will start to disagree with what they are doing and influence one another.[citation needed]An abductor may also have second thoughts or experience empathy towards their victims.

Lima syndrome was named after an abduction at the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru, in 1996, when members of a militant movement took hostage hundreds of people attending a party at the official residence of Japan's ambassador. Within a few hours, the abductors had set free most of the hostages, including the most valuable ones, because of sympathy towards them.[14][15]


The telltale signs are so clear as to make a direct statement seem unnecessary, but there seem to be many people who have not fully made the connection, so here it is:

Much of the supposed demographic "success" of Christianity and Islaam (and to a lesser degree other doctrines as well) comes from what is in reality a deliberate triggering of Stockhold Syndrome in large scale, made all the more effective due to numbers and the routine application of undue expectations from a very tender age, far too often literally from the cradle or even before birth, or even conception.

Many, many millions (perhaps well over a billion even) of people do not "believe" in their nominal doctrines nearly so much as they have duly accepted that their only choices are to decide whether their conflicts will be internal or external. It is all too common for infants to learn that there will not be peace in the family unless they go through the motions and fulfill some measure of the expectations of parents, family and friends who seem to sincerely believe that we all owe them some measure of agreement on those matters, despite them being utterly personal in nature.

Even the apologism of such doctrines is all too often rooted on fairly direct appeals to Stockholm Syndrome, while attempts to defend their legitimacy often rely on emphasizing examples of the complementary Lima Syndrome, among other reasons because this is a generational pattern where the oppressors are all too often utterly sincere and largely unconscious of the very possibility of doing better than repeating the pattern.

When whole societies engage in shameless proselitism as a matter of course, the damage is deep and lasting.

Perhaps ironically, a significant if arguably minor aspect of that damage is done to the very reputation of religion itself, as well as to its reputation.

These days there are many hundreds of millions of people who actually perceive religion as something to actively avoid, perhaps because what they have learned to understand by that name is the intense application of Stockholm and Lima Syndromes as opposed to any constructive activity.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
You seem to make a lot of claims here, without any particular backing. You see things in this way, OK, but many people don't. That's about as far as we can go based on what you've provided.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You seem to make a lot of claims here, without any particular backing.

I do not see any particular need for more backing at this point, that much is true.

It is not like there is any shortage of evidence. Quite frankly, I don't think there is even a lot of room for controversy either.

The direct witnesses number literally in the tens of millions, and that is a very low estimate.

Then again, anyone who sees some flaw in that description in the OP is of course free to point it out. It would be exciting to learn of any, truth be told.

You see things in this way, OK, but many people don't. That's about as far as we can go based on what you've provided.

Is it really? I wonder.

From past exchanges I understand that you have a personal history that exposed you to an unusually varied set of beliefs from early on. It is entirely conceivable that you do not have the life experience of being surrounded by true believers eager to have your confirmation of support to their cause.

It takes considerable guts to tell one's mom outright that no, I do not want to be mistaken for a Catholic. Or a Kardecist Spiritist. Or a Muslim.

And it can be quite miserable to actually do it and have to choose every day between engaging in deception or instead being the target of irrational hostility. It takes a lot out of one's faith in humanity, let me assure you.

This is not at all a hypothetical. It is a widespread, everyday, all-too-real and largely unremarked occurrence in whole communities.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I do not see any particular need for more backing at this point, that much is true.

It is not like there is any shortage of evidence. Quite frankly, I don't think there is even a lot of room for controversy either.

The direct witnesses number literally in the tens of millions, and that is a very low estimate.

Then again, anyone who sees some flaw in that description in the OP is of course free to point it out. It would be exciting to learn of any, truth be told.

Is it really? I wonder.

From past exchanges I understand that you have a personal history that exposed you to an unusually varied set of beliefs from early on. It is entirely conceivable that you do not have the life experience of being surrounded by true believers eager to have your confirmation of support to their cause.

It takes considerable guts to tell one's mom outright that no, I do not want to be mistaken for a Catholic. Or a Kardecist Spiritist. Or a Muslim.

And it can be quite miserable to actually do it and have to choose every day between engaging in deception or instead being the target of irrational hostility. It takes a lot out of one's faith in humanity, let me assure you.

This is not at all a hypothetical. It is a widespread, everyday, all-too-real and largely unremarked occurrence in whole communities.

Well I suppose I see your point. But I don't think it's quite so homogenous and simplistic as you portray. Inculcation =/= Stockholm Syndrome
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well I suppose I see your point. But I don't think it's quite so homogenous and simplistic as you portray. Inculcation =/= Stockholm Syndrome
No, not always. But very often people are raised for generation after generation sincerely believing that their duty is to accomodate for the fear of questioning of their forefathers and to pass that fear along.

That reality does no favors to anyone, least of all religion itself. Most of the Brazilian-born atheists end up mistaking religion for this quagmire of fear and false guilts. And I have seen considerable hints that it is not too different in Muslim communities either.
 
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meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Stockholm Syndrome, according to Wikipedia,

"is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity.[1] These feelings, resulting from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time spent together, are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims. Generally speaking, Stockholm syndrome consists of "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."[2]

Further ahead, under the heading of "As a coping mechanism", the current version of that article adds:

"From a psychoanalytic lens, it can be argued that Stockholm syndrome arises strictly as a result of survival instincts. Strentz states, “the victim’s need to survive is stronger than his impulse to hate the person who has created the dilemma.” A positive emotional bond between captor and captive is a “defense mechanism of the ego under stress”.[4] These sentimental feelings are not strictly for show however. Since captives often fear that their affection will be perceived as fake, they eventually begin to believe that their positive sentiments are genuine."

The article also describes a complementary affliction, Lima Syndrome:




The telltale signs are so clear as to make a direct statement seem unnecessary, but there seem to be many people who have not fully made the connection, so here it is:

Much of the supposed demographic "success" of Christianity and Islaam (and to a lesser degree other doctrines as well) comes from what is in reality a deliberate triggering of Stockhold Syndrome in large scale, made all the more effective due to numbers and the routine application of undue expectations from a very tender age, far too often literally from the cradle or even before birth, or even conception.

Many, many millions (perhaps well over a billion even) of people do not "believe" in their nominal doctrines nearly so much as they have duly accepted that their only choices are to decide whether their conflicts will be internal or external. It is all too common for infants to learn that there will not be peace in the family unless they go through the motions and fulfill some measure of the expectations of parents, family and friends who seem to sincerely believe that we all owe them some measure of agreement on those matters, despite them being utterly personal in nature.

Even the apologism of such doctrines is all too often rooted on fairly direct appeals to Stockholm Syndrome, while attempts to defend their legitimacy often rely on emphasizing examples of the complementary Lima Syndrome, among other reasons because this is a generational pattern where the oppressors are all too often utterly sincere and largely unconscious of the very possibility of doing better than repeating the pattern.

When whole societies engage in shameless proselitism as a matter of course, the damage is deep and lasting.

Perhaps ironically, a significant if arguably minor aspect of that damage is done to the very reputation of religion itself, as well as to its reputation.

These days there are many hundreds of millions of people who actually perceive religion as something to actively avoid, perhaps because what they have learned to understand by that name is the intense application of Stockholm and Lima Syndromes as opposed to any constructive activity.
well glad I don't have those feelings, the only person to give my those feeling in my case was a foreign catholic.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@Luis I think you're right about this.

I wonder how many folks here who consider themselves "actively religious" or "strongly religious", would be happy if their kids were taught unbiased comparative religion at an early age?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I wonder how many folks here who consider themselves "actively religious" or "strongly religious", would be happy if their kids were taught unbiased comparative religion at an early age?
I would hope mine are. I recieved a good, rich education about all sorts of faiths and it only served me well.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I would hope mine are. I recieved a good, rich education about all sorts of faiths and it only served me well.

That makes sense coming from you @Rival ;)

But how about for the billions who hold that their god is the one true god?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
That makes sense coming from you @Rival ;)

But how about for the billions who hold that their god is the one true god?
If they really, truly believed it, their kids having a mutli-religious education should only serve to reinforce and prove that belief. As it stands...
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
WOW. Someone who wants to let go of religion trying to explain why people have religious beliefs. Why not have someone who does not drive explain how to drive a car.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Stockholm Syndrome, according to Wikipedia,

You mean this historically right. As in one nation taking over another nation with the religion of the conquering nation becoming the predominate religion via the Stockholm Syndrome?

Rome spreading it's religion. same for the Ottoman empire.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If they really, truly believed it, their kids having a mutli-religious education should only serve to reinforce and prove that belief. As it stands...

Well in "Christendom" there used to be blasphemy laws. In Islam there still are. If your theory is correct (which I'd guess it rarely is), then such laws would never have been in place. I suspect that the very idea of "blasphemy" is a reaction by those who fear their religion is vulnerable. I'd bet you large sums o' cash that the number of Madrasas teaching unbiased comparative religion is vanishingly small.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Stockholm Syndrome, according to Wikipedia,

"is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity.[1] These feelings, resulting from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time spent together, are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims. Generally speaking, Stockholm syndrome consists of "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."[2]

Further ahead, under the heading of "As a coping mechanism", the current version of that article adds:

"From a psychoanalytic lens, it can be argued that Stockholm syndrome arises strictly as a result of survival instincts. Strentz states, “the victim’s need to survive is stronger than his impulse to hate the person who has created the dilemma.” A positive emotional bond between captor and captive is a “defense mechanism of the ego under stress”.[4] These sentimental feelings are not strictly for show however. Since captives often fear that their affection will be perceived as fake, they eventually begin to believe that their positive sentiments are genuine."

The article also describes a complementary affliction, Lima Syndrome:




The telltale signs are so clear as to make a direct statement seem unnecessary, but there seem to be many people who have not fully made the connection, so here it is:

Much of the supposed demographic "success" of Christianity and Islaam (and to a lesser degree other doctrines as well) comes from what is in reality a deliberate triggering of Stockhold Syndrome in large scale, made all the more effective due to numbers and the routine application of undue expectations from a very tender age, far too often literally from the cradle or even before birth, or even conception.

Many, many millions (perhaps well over a billion even) of people do not "believe" in their nominal doctrines nearly so much as they have duly accepted that their only choices are to decide whether their conflicts will be internal or external. It is all too common for infants to learn that there will not be peace in the family unless they go through the motions and fulfill some measure of the expectations of parents, family and friends who seem to sincerely believe that we all owe them some measure of agreement on those matters, despite them being utterly personal in nature.

Even the apologism of such doctrines is all too often rooted on fairly direct appeals to Stockholm Syndrome, while attempts to defend their legitimacy often rely on emphasizing examples of the complementary Lima Syndrome, among other reasons because this is a generational pattern where the oppressors are all too often utterly sincere and largely unconscious of the very possibility of doing better than repeating the pattern.

When whole societies engage in shameless proselitism as a matter of course, the damage is deep and lasting.

Perhaps ironically, a significant if arguably minor aspect of that damage is done to the very reputation of religion itself, as well as to its reputation.

These days there are many hundreds of millions of people who actually perceive religion as something to actively avoid, perhaps because what they have learned to understand by that name is the intense application of Stockholm and Lima Syndromes as opposed to any constructive activity.

I would liken fundamental christianity more to a pyramid scheme
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We like fitting behavior patterns into neat boxes but I'm not even sure Stockholms syndrome is a real thing (it's not on the DSM and has always been a bit ambiguously definrd.) Kind of reminded me of the Beauty and the Beast Stockholm syndrome claim. To which I highly recommend this video:
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I think Stockholm Syndrome is an analogy at best. I just think that most religious "belief" is attributable to most people's drive and desire for social compliance and acceptance. Aspects of this could appear similar to Stockholm Syndrome on the surface, but I think the context, dynamics, and mechanisms are somewhat different.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
WOW. Someone who wants to let go of religion trying to explain why people have religious beliefs. Why not have someone who does not drive explain how to drive a car.
That someone would not be me. It is belief in deities that I discourage, not religion.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
WOW. Someone who wants to let go of religion trying to explain why people have religious beliefs. Why not have someone who does not drive explain how to drive a car.
Oh, even if that shoe did fit me, your request would still be odd.

Do you think pedestrians are not entitled to talk about the reasons why people drive cars?
 
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