Still seeking......

[Kevin Armstrong]

Having been away from faith for over 50 years, I set out to discover what, if any, relationship I could find with God.
Having been christened and confirmed into Anglicanism, that was my first point of call. No luck, too many divisions. I was then drawn to Roman Catholicism and that seemed to fit for me. I wanted to start an RCIA course but found that there were too many obstacles surrounding my divorce and remarriage. I was very despondent about that and looked at all manner of other ways to find a faith. Alas, nothing would satisfy my all too enquiring mind! Catholicism still intrigues me but I cannot go through the hoops regarding my former marriage.
I suppose I can sum my position up like this. I believe that much of Genesis is a variation on ancient stories of earlier civilizations and that looking at literal interpretations in the Bible is not for me. Similarly, much of the supernatural stuff re miracles of Jesus leaves me aghast with incredulity. Far better, for me, to see the meanings in them and the parables and see Jesus as a sort of mystical preacher rather than a divine figure although I really don't know. Similarly, the central part of the Christian story, the resurrection, seems to make more sense as a metaphor rather than an historic event. Likewise, the 4th century construct of original sin and the Trinitarian controversies also cause me a deep state of confusion.
As I'm writing this I'm beginning to think that maybe such a thing as an agnostic Christian really does exist.
Please comment but do be gentle, I'm not slagging anyone off, I remain open minded notwithstanding some of the above.
I hope this is posted in the correct category too.
Kevin

 

[Rival]

Is there any reason you need to be a Christian specifically?

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

Familiarity I suppose. I was going along quite happily as an atheist for about 50 years. Then I met my wife, a Baptist convert from RC. I just got into thinking I was lacking something, I called it inner peace. I've never looked at other religions seriously, skirting with Hinduism and Judaism just about sums it up. I'm surprised that I've found things so interesting in spite of the confusion.

 

[Rival]

Familiarity I suppose. I was going along quite happily as an atheist for about 50 years. Then I met my wife, a Baptist convert from RC. I just got into thinking I was lacking something, I called it inner peace. I've never looked at other religions seriously, skirting with Hinduism and Judaism just about sums it up. I'm surprised that I've found things so interesting in spite of the confusion.

I'm just thinking maybe you should broaden your search, if this is the case.

 

[Deeje]

Having been away from faith for over 50 years, I set out to discover what, if any, relationship I could find with God.
Having been christened and confirmed into Anglicanism, that was my first point of call. No luck, too many divisions. I was then drawn to Roman Catholicism and that seemed to fit for me. I wanted to start an RCIA course but found that there were too many obstacles surrounding my divorce and remarriage. I was very despondent about that and looked at all manner of other ways to find a faith. Alas, nothing would satisfy my all too enquiring mind! Catholicism still intrigues me but I cannot go through the hoops regarding my former marriage.
I suppose I can sum my position up like this. I believe that much of Genesis is a variation on ancient stories of earlier civilizations and that looking at literal interpretations in the Bible is not for me. Similarly, much of the supernatural stuff re miracles of Jesus leaves me aghast with incredulity. Far better, for me, to see the meanings in them and the parables and see Jesus as a sort of mystical preacher rather than a divine figure although I really don't know. Similarly, the central part of the Christian story, the resurrection, seems to make more sense as a metaphor rather than an historic event. Likewise, the 4th century construct of original sin and the Trinitarian controversies also cause me a deep state of confusion.
As I'm writing this I'm beginning to think that maybe such a thing as an agnostic Christian really does exist.
Please comment but do be gentle, I'm not slagging anyone off, I remain open minded notwithstanding some of the above.
I hope this is posted in the correct category too.
Kevin

As a former Anglican I can identify with your dilemma. But the one thing I found to be helpful was to clean my slate and start again at the beginning. Let go of pre-conceived ideas and let the Bible fill in the blanks for itself.

It is obvious to me that Christendom has strayed completely off the path that Jesus started. Learn what original Christianity taught and practiced and you will see that the "church" system that claims to be "Christian" doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus at all.

Can I ask what questions are of importance to you?

 

[sun rise]

I'm just thinking maybe you should broaden your search, if this is the case.

That struck me as well. And I was struck by this:

what, if any, relationship I could find with God.

That to me is a central question.

agnostic Christian

As in "doubting Thomas", perhaps?

 

[danieldemol]

Having been away from faith for over 50 years, I set out to discover what, if any, relationship I could find with God.
Having been christened and confirmed into Anglicanism, that was my first point of call. No luck, too many divisions. I was then drawn to Roman Catholicism and that seemed to fit for me. I wanted to start an RCIA course but found that there were too many obstacles surrounding my divorce and remarriage. I was very despondent about that and looked at all manner of other ways to find a faith. Alas, nothing would satisfy my all too enquiring mind! Catholicism still intrigues me but I cannot go through the hoops regarding my former marriage.
I suppose I can sum my position up like this. I believe that much of Genesis is a variation on ancient stories of earlier civilizations and that looking at literal interpretations in the Bible is not for me. Similarly, much of the supernatural stuff re miracles of Jesus leaves me aghast with incredulity. Far better, for me, to see the meanings in them and the parables and see Jesus as a sort of mystical preacher rather than a divine figure although I really don't know. Similarly, the central part of the Christian story, the resurrection, seems to make more sense as a metaphor rather than an historic event. Likewise, the 4th century construct of original sin and the Trinitarian controversies also cause me a deep state of confusion.
As I'm writing this I'm beginning to think that maybe such a thing as an agnostic Christian really does exist.
Please comment but do be gentle, I'm not slagging anyone off, I remain open minded notwithstanding some of the above.
I hope this is posted in the correct category too.
Kevin

Welcome to RF Kevin

In Australia we have “liberal Catholic” churches.

I haven’t been to one so I can’t say whether they are strict on re-marriage rules but if I was into Christianity (which i’m not but that’s another story) that is probably one of the first churches I would be looking into.

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

As a former Anglican I can identify with your dilemma. But the one thing I found to be helpful was to clean my slate and start again at the beginning. Let go of pre-conceived ideas and let the Bible fill in the blanks for itself.

It is obvious to me that Christendom has strayed completely off the path that Jesus started. Learn what original Christianity taught and practiced and you will see that the "church" system that claims to be "Christian" doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus at all.

Can I ask what questions are of importance to you?

The questions of paramount importance to me at this stage are as I outlined in the OP. I see that some suggestions are that I broaden my search but that's not what I want to do. As I said, I was ready to try the RCIA before the marriage problem came up. As far as Anglicanism goes, I'm looking more into Anglo-Catholicism but what I'm finding is leaving an uncomfortable feeling.It's just my take on the services I've seen, overly ritualistic and lacking in real feeling. Contrast that with my experience of RC and that's why I keep being pulled back.
I've had conversations with my local Anglican vicar about my questions and his responses were somewhat lacking imo.So, the search goes on, perhaps towards liberal Catholicism as another respondent has suggested but I think that then brings in some of the stuff re social constructs that I'm not wholly at ease with. I may be misunderstanding the churchmanship there but if it's like the low church, progressive C of E stuff then I can't go with that.
If I had to state one specific question then it's why original sin is given such prominence and how it seems inextricably linked to allegory yet the messages from so many clergy suggest that there is a real contradiction there.

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

Welcome to RF Kevin

In Australia we have “liberal Catholic” churches.

I haven’t been to one so I can’t say whether they are strict on re-marriage rules but if I was into Christianity (which i’m not but that’s another story) that is probably one of the first churches I would be looking into.

Hello Daniel, Yes, we have liberal catholic churches here and to me they are going to cause the same sort of split in the RC church as we are seeing in the C of E. I won't go into my own opinions on the present day culture wars except to say that I'm more of a traditionalist in my advancing years than I would ever have thought possible even just a few years ago!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Having been away from faith for over 50 years, I set out to discover what, if any, relationship I could find with God.
Having been christened and confirmed into Anglicanism, that was my first point of call. No luck, too many divisions. I was then drawn to Roman Catholicism and that seemed to fit for me. I wanted to start an RCIA course but found that there were too many obstacles surrounding my divorce and remarriage. I was very despondent about that and looked at all manner of other ways to find a faith. Alas, nothing would satisfy my all too enquiring mind! Catholicism still intrigues me but I cannot go through the hoops regarding my former marriage.
I suppose I can sum my position up like this. I believe that much of Genesis is a variation on ancient stories of earlier civilizations and that looking at literal interpretations in the Bible is not for me. Similarly, much of the supernatural stuff re miracles of Jesus leaves me aghast with incredulity. Far better, for me, to see the meanings in them and the parables and see Jesus as a sort of mystical preacher rather than a divine figure although I really don't know. Similarly, the central part of the Christian story, the resurrection, seems to make more sense as a metaphor rather than an historic event. Likewise, the 4th century construct of original sin and the Trinitarian controversies also cause me a deep state of confusion.
As I'm writing this I'm beginning to think that maybe such a thing as an agnostic Christian really does exist.
Please comment but do be gentle, I'm not slagging anyone off, I remain open minded notwithstanding some of the above.
I hope this is posted in the correct category too.
Kevin

The best way will always be to see things for yourself. Do it until you can't do it anymore.

 

[Deeje]

The questions of paramount importance to me at this stage are as I outlined in the OP. I see that some suggestions are that I broaden my search but that's not what I want to do. As I said, I was ready to try the RCIA before the marriage problem came up. As far as Anglicanism goes, I'm looking more into Anglo-Catholicism but what I'm finding is leaving an uncomfortable feeling.It's just my take on the services I've seen, overly ritualistic and lacking in real feeling. Contrast that with my experience of RC and that's why I keep being pulled back.
I've had conversations with my local Anglican vicar about my questions and his responses were somewhat lacking imo.So, the search goes on, perhaps towards liberal Catholicism as another respondent has suggested but I think that then brings in some of the stuff re social constructs that I'm not wholly at ease with. I may be misunderstanding the churchmanship there but if it's like the low church, progressive C of E stuff then I can't go with that.

As a former Anglican, would you like a Q and A on your most pressing questions and I will provide the answers from the Bible that I got to my many questions. You'll be surprised at how many beliefs have crept into the church over the centuries that are not found in the Bible....particularly in Roman Catholicism. The Church of England (now called Anglican) was an offshoot so that King Henry could divorce his wife.

If I had to state one specific question then it's why original sin is given such prominence and how it seems inextricably linked to allegory yet the messages from so many clergy suggest that there is a real contradiction there.

This is one of the questions I wondered about.....

Original sin has different connotations in different Christian denominations.
The Catholic Church used to believe it was sex and so generations grew up believing sex was somehow sinful.

But when you read the Genesis account, you will see that original sin was actually disobedience to the only negative command that the first humans were given. It was the repercussions of that act that led to the coming of Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:12) If humankind had not introduced "sin" into the world, he would never have been needed to rescue Adam's children by offering his life for them. Like someone stepping in front of an innocent victim to take the bullet for them.

Romans 5:18-19...
"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous."

The meaning of the word "sin" in the Bible is an archery term, meaning to "miss the mark". We all miss the mark of Adam's original perfection. God will give it back to us.

God's law was.... "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life" so the law demanded equivalency. Adam paid for his sin with his own life, but there was no one to offer a perfect life for the perfect life that his children lost through no fault on their part. That is why Jesus came from heaven as the son of God, because every other human was a sinful son of Adam.

God's word does not lie, so there can be no contradiction. Genesis tells us how we got into this mess and Revelation tells how God gets us back to Eden. (Paradise) Everything in between is how he accomplishes it.

Genesis also gives us the role of God's adversary. But that's for another post.

I hope that helps.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Having been away from faith for over 50 years, I set out to discover what, if any, relationship I could find with God.
Having been christened and confirmed into Anglicanism, that was my first point of call. No luck, too many divisions. I was then drawn to Roman Catholicism and that seemed to fit for me. I wanted to start an RCIA course but found that there were too many obstacles surrounding my divorce and remarriage. I was very despondent about that and looked at all manner of other ways to find a faith. Alas, nothing would satisfy my all too enquiring mind! Catholicism still intrigues me but I cannot go through the hoops regarding my former marriage.
I suppose I can sum my position up like this. I believe that much of Genesis is a variation on ancient stories of earlier civilizations and that looking at literal interpretations in the Bible is not for me. Similarly, much of the supernatural stuff re miracles of Jesus leaves me aghast with incredulity. Far better, for me, to see the meanings in them and the parables and see Jesus as a sort of mystical preacher rather than a divine figure although I really don't know. Similarly, the central part of the Christian story, the resurrection, seems to make more sense as a metaphor rather than an historic event. Likewise, the 4th century construct of original sin and the Trinitarian controversies also cause me a deep state of confusion.
As I'm writing this I'm beginning to think that maybe such a thing as an agnostic Christian really does exist.
Please comment but do be gentle, I'm not slagging anyone off, I remain open minded notwithstanding some of the above.
I hope this is posted in the correct category too.
Kevin

Hi Kevin

Hope you are enjoying your time here at the forum.

Never be afraid to ask your questions. There are no "easy" answers but that is exactly what we dream about - everyone respecting our wide variety of beliefs & opinions & ideas.

I have had an interesting journey spiritually - started out being raised as a Catholic but never could simply "accept" that God would feel any need to torture anyone for ever. If that is what he is like I would NOT fancy spending eternity with such a being.

Anyway, I was an absolute atheist for a decade or two - I figured only the feeblest and most frightened minds would need to clutch onto "faith" of any description.

I have definitely mellowed with age

I could recommend a ton of the books I have read - the first one to open my eyes was "Conversations with God" - may be worth a read - it asks ALL of the big questions and challenges the idea that God finished communicating his "message" 2 thousand years ago.

If you want SOME idea of what the books are like, try this site -

Neale Donald Walsch Quotes (Author of Conversations with God)

Not everyone agrees with Neale but that's no surprise - we humans can never agree on anything

Anyway, best of luck in your journey and if you have any questions. don't be afraid to ask away.

Cheers!

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Almost forgot!

I recommend meditation for anyone seeking "answers" - it has helped me in my journey from Violent rage to genuine compassion - but i still need near-constant reminders

All the best!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I suppose I can sum my position up like this. I believe that much of Genesis is a variation on ancient stories of earlier civilizations and that looking at literal interpretations in the Bible is not for me. Similarly, much of the supernatural stuff re miracles of Jesus leaves me aghast with incredulity. Far better, for me, to see the meanings in them and the parables and see Jesus as a sort of mystical preacher rather than a divine figure although I really don't know. Similarly, the central part of the Christian story, the resurrection, seems to make more sense as a metaphor rather than an historic event. Likewise, the 4th century construct of original sin and the Trinitarian controversies also cause me a deep state of confusion.

I see you have the choice to think Globally. You biblical preference of interpretation, being symbolic and metaphor, allows for global thought, outside the usual box, muck like the early Christians had to do.

Best of luck with your choices.

Regards Tony

 

[Bird123]

Having been away from faith for over 50 years, I set out to discover what, if any, relationship I could find with God.
Having been christened and confirmed into Anglicanism, that was my first point of call. No luck, too many divisions. I was then drawn to Roman Catholicism and that seemed to fit for me. I wanted to start an RCIA course but found that there were too many obstacles surrounding my divorce and remarriage. I was very despondent about that and looked at all manner of other ways to find a faith. Alas, nothing would satisfy my all too enquiring mind! Catholicism still intrigues me but I cannot go through the hoops regarding my former marriage.
I suppose I can sum my position up like this. I believe that much of Genesis is a variation on ancient stories of earlier civilizations and that looking at literal interpretations in the Bible is not for me. Similarly, much of the supernatural stuff re miracles of Jesus leaves me aghast with incredulity. Far better, for me, to see the meanings in them and the parables and see Jesus as a sort of mystical preacher rather than a divine figure although I really don't know. Similarly, the central part of the Christian story, the resurrection, seems to make more sense as a metaphor rather than an historic event. Likewise, the 4th century construct of original sin and the Trinitarian controversies also cause me a deep state of confusion.
As I'm writing this I'm beginning to think that maybe such a thing as an agnostic Christian really does exist.
Please comment but do be gentle, I'm not slagging anyone off, I remain open minded notwithstanding some of the above.
I hope this is posted in the correct category too.
Kevin

Why do you need a religion at all? God doesn't belong to one. Since you discovered so much of those holy books do not add up, isn't it clear they do not have the answers at all?

I do not understand why most people go to others to find God. Many just pick a religion that feels good to them. Is it just the social aspect of religion that they seek? It doesn't seem like they really search for the truth. Hmmm? maybe some just want the answers served up on a silver platter. As I see it, that has never been the way to Discover anything.

Well, That's what I am seeing. Further, simply because one is not part of a religion does not mean one is an Atheist. The true variables are not limited.

As I see it, your free choice is what God wants anyway. Relax, it will all be OK.

 

[Wandering Monk]

To me the only meaningful purpose of religion is to connect me with my ancestors in some way; to be part of the chain of history.

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

Why do you need a religion at all? God doesn't belong to one. Since you discovered so much of those holy books do not add up, isn't it clear they do not have the answers at all?

I do not understand why most people go to others to find God. Many just pick a religion that feels good to them. Is it just the social aspect of religion that they seek? It doesn't seem like they really search for the truth. Hmmm? maybe some just want the answers served up on a silver platter. As I see it, that has never been the way to Discover anything.

Well, That's what I am seeing. Further, simply because one is not part of a religion does not mean one is an Atheist. The true variables are not limited.

As I see it, your free choice is what God wants anyway. Relax, it will all be OK.

I think it's because I find the settings in the churches/cathedrals peaceful, I like the ceremonial/liturgical side of things if not over-cooked. It's great that you have found what you are looking for. I'm not entirely sure that I've interpreted the scriptures correctly and thus, I remain open to suggestion. I admit that some days it seems like an unnecessary struggle but I keep learning.

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

Hi Kevin

Hope you are enjoying your time here at the forum.

Never be afraid to ask your questions. There are no "easy" answers but that is exactly what we dream about - everyone respecting our wide variety of beliefs & opinions & ideas.

I have had an interesting journey spiritually - started out being raised as a Catholic but never could simply "accept" that God would feel any need to torture anyone for ever. If that is what he is like I would NOT fancy spending eternity with such a being.

Anyway, I was an absolute atheist for a decade or two - I figured only the feeblest and most frightened minds would need to clutch onto "faith" of any description.

I have definitely mellowed with age

I could recommend a ton of the books I have read - the first one to open my eyes was "Conversations with God" - may be worth a read - it asks ALL of the big questions and challenges the idea that God finished communicating his "message" 2 thousand years ago.Thanks G-A, I'll certainly have a look at the literature you mention. Sadly, I've never been able to get into meditation, not sure why not as I think it's peace of mind and a sense of fulfilment that I'm seeking, at least in part.
Recently, I was in Worcester Cathedral, just sitting and relaxing, just a few souls wandering around. I'd been having many problems at home for a long time and was feeling incredibly stressed ( having suffered from extreme stress in the past, I knew the warning signs that were developing). Anyway, a vicar walked to the pulpit, spoke a few words, said the Lord's prayer, wished everyone ( all 5 of us) well and walked from the pulpit....5 minutes max. On my way back to my daughter's home, I found the anxiety inexplicably had gone.Furthermore, my mind became clearer and for the rest of my stay, I slept well. I took it as a signal to continue my quest ( it was an Anglican cathedral).

If you want SOME idea of what the books are like, try this site -

Neale Donald Walsch Quotes (Author of Conversations with God)

Not everyone agrees with Neale but that's no surprise - we humans can never agree on anything

Anyway, best of luck in your journey and if you have any questions. don't be afraid to ask away.

Cheers!

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

As a former Anglican, would you like a Q and A on your most pressing questions and I will provide the answers from the Bible that I got to my many questions. You'll be surprised at how many beliefs have crept into the church over the centuries that are not found in the Bible....particularly in Roman Catholicism. The Church of England (now called Anglican) was an offshoot so that King Henry could divorce his wife.



This is one of the questions I wondered about.....

Original sin has different connotations in different Christian denominations.
The Catholic Church used to believe it was sex and so generations grew up believing sex was somehow sinful.

But when you read the Genesis account, you will see that original sin was actually disobedience to the only negative command that the first humans were given. It was the repercussions of that act that led to the coming of Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:12) If humankind had not introduced "sin" into the world, he would never have been needed to rescue Adam's children by offering his life for them. Like someone stepping in front of an innocent victim to take the bullet for them.

Romans 5:18-19...
"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous."

The meaning of the word "sin" in the Bible is an archery term, meaning to "miss the mark". We all miss the mark of Adam's original perfection. God will give it back to us.

God's law was.... "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life" so the law demanded equivalency. Adam paid for his sin with his own life, but there was no one to offer a perfect life for the perfect life that his children lost through no fault on their part. That is why Jesus came from heaven as the son of God, because every other human was a sinful son of Adam.

God's word does not lie, so there can be no contradiction. Genesis tells us how we got into this mess and Revelation tells how God gets us back to Eden. (Paradise) Everything in between is how he accomplishes it.

Genesis also gives us the role of God's adversary. But that's for another post.

I hope that helps.

 

[Kevin Armstrong]

Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately I am clear that your approach will not benefit me. I'm pleased for you that you've found what works for you. Briefly, using the Bible in the literal sense that you have, actually leads to more questions than answers hence my determination not to look at much of it as literal ( as explained in the OP). Thanks again.