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Still good to vote for the single best candidate

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Why Elizabeth Warren is one of the best candidates actually -- unlike her main competition of Biden, Sanders, and Trump, she does 2 good things instead of just 0 or 1. She both:

A) thinks clearly

and

B) doesn't try to use some ideology by which to fool voters.

More or less you could say Warrens positions are that classic good things government does like education and support for health care and other basic "public goods" are beneficial and that the rich which have benefited so much from America should pay their fair share.

But she recognizes also that freedom of enterprise is the best basic system -- e.g. she says, "I'm capitalist to the bone." (Warren has said this several times to make it clear she's likes free enterprise and knows it is what has been shown to work best)

So, you have here the best of all positions:

Free Enterprise along the Rule of Law (and less corruption)

More fair sharing of the burden for a good level of public goods (education, the environment, healthcare)

And an absence of ideological trickery and the inevitable bad outcomes of any ideology.

----------
In practical terms, voting for Warren won't give the election to Sanders, and also won't give it to Biden unless Biden can win her endorsement in the convention... See how that's good: if Biden wins he should take her as his running mate or a prominent member of the cabinet.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
Bernie and Biden make some excellent points too, I hope democrats vote for who their conscience allows.
BTW Chris Matthews of MSNBC recently likened the rise of Bernie Sanders to the rise of the Nazis. :)
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
BTW Chris Matthews of MSNBC recently likened the rise of Bernie Sanders to the rise of the Nazis. :)

I wasn't aware that Bernie Sanders was supported by an armed militia to scare off voters, attempted a putch, surfed on nationalism and racist sentiment. Do people actually remember how the nazi came unto power or what they did or have they just turned into cartoon villains?

PS: I find it ironic that a socialist, democrat jew is compared to a nazi.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
I predict that we'll end up with "safe" status quo Joe, then Trump for another 4 years.

Were you ever in doubt that Trump was going to get re-elected? He will probably lose the popular vote again, but he will almost certainly win no matter who is his opponent. Joe Biden or Bloomberg could actually lose the popular vote.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
I wasn't aware that Bernie Sanders was supported by an armed militia to scare off voters, attempted a putch, surfed on nationalism and racist sentiment. Do people actually remember how the nazi came unto power or what they did or have they just turned into cartoon villains?

PS: I find it ironic that a socialist, democrat jew is compared to a nazi.

Also interesting is that MSNBC is a left bias news organization and Chris Matthew's was one of it's main cheerleaders for years. It's basically a propaganda outlet for the DNC.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Were you ever in doubt that Trump was going to get re-elected? He will probably lose the popular vote again, but he will almost certainly win no matter who is his opponent. Joe Biden or Bloomberg could actually lose the popular vote.
Trump is the symptom, not the cause, of a serious cultural malady. The left certainly has its own problems, and will have deserved its loss if that's how it ends.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Also interesting is that MSNBC is a left bias news organization and Chris Matthew's was one of it's main cheerleaders for years. It's basically a propaganda outlet for the DNC.
Is Chris Matthews at another network now? I've not seen the cable news networks except via YouTube on election nights.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Were you ever in doubt that Trump was going to get re-elected? He will probably lose the popular vote again, but he will almost certainly win no matter who is his opponent. Joe Biden or Bloomberg could actually lose the popular vote.

Maybe but...I'm thinking can go other way.

Some of the close states from 2016, like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, can we expect they'll go for Trump again? I wonder, now that more independent women voters have had time to see his true colors.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Trump is the symptom, not the cause, of a serious cultural malady. The left certainly has its own problems, and will have deserved its loss if that's how it ends.
It's a interesting theory I've heard. I think it's partly that, and partly the....leader cult thing also. Both. One without the other wouldn't necessarily work enough. Trump is a great salesman, that could sell you your own shoes so to speak, for a portion of people.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Bernie and Biden make some excellent points too, I hope democrats vote for who their conscience allows.
BTW Chris Matthews of MSNBC recently likened the rise of Bernie Sanders to the rise of the Nazis. :)
There's no nazis like right wing stormtroopers.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Why Elizabeth Warren is one of the best candidates actually -- unlike her main competition of Biden, Sanders, and Trump

Sorry, I don't like her demeanor. I think she gets to argumentative and excited about issues. I like Sander's policies but I don't think he's electable. I hear Biden speak the other day at a South Carolina town hall. I thought he did a pretty good job. He's a little creepy though but now that he's older I like his demeanor and experience better.
 
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dfnj

Well-Known Member
Bernie and Biden make some excellent points too, I hope democrats vote for who their conscience allows.
BTW Chris Matthews of MSNBC recently likened the rise of Bernie Sanders to the rise of the Nazis.

Here's a really good book on American style fascism:

https://www.amazon.com/American-Nightmare-Facing-Challenge-Fascism/dp/0872867536

My wife hated the cover so she kept hiding it on me. Here's really good interview on it:


According to these guys, Sanders is not the Nazi nightmare we Americans are facing.

"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Benito Mussolini

I think Giroux is probably a better authority on fascism than Chris Matthews who simply reads a teleprompter all day. Here are some recent articles on the subjecti:

Fascism Archives | Truthout
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Trump is the symptom, not the cause, of a serious cultural malady. The left certainly has its own problems, and will have deserved its loss if that's how it ends.

The left has been destroyed by moderate Democrats who are essentially Nixon Republicans. Hillary admitted in her book she worked on Barry Goldwater's presidential campaign. Can you imagine what the Republican outrage would be if one of the Republican nominated candidates admitted to working on George McGovern's campaign while in college. It's outrageous Democrats have to nominate Republicans!!

Here's what the Democratic Party used to be under FDR. This is what I hope it returns to in the future. FDR's words from 1936 are MORE true today than ever before!

"An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government."

Speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
The left has been destroyed by moderate Democrats who are essentially Nixon Republicans. Hillary admitted in her book she worked on Barry Goldwater's presidential campaign. Can you imagine what the Republican outrage would be if one of the Republican nominated candidates admitted to working on George McGovern's campaign while in college. It's outrageous Democrats have to nominate Republicans!!

Here's what the Democratic Party used to be under FDR. This is what I hope it returns to in the future. FDR's words from 1936 are MORE true today than ever before!

"An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government."

Speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention
Yes, in the long run capitalism doesn't work once AI and machines are advanced enough that no labor of any kind is really able to command wages. Even if we are the art finally, there has to be a way for the non artists to live in that future time. Perhaps all production will become public production. But something else, a different transistion, is likely before that kind of future i think.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Why Elizabeth Warren is one of the best candidates actually -- unlike her main competition of Biden, Sanders, and Trump, she does 2 good things instead of just 0 or 1. She both:

A) thinks clearly

and

B) doesn't try to use some ideology by which to fool voters.

More or less you could say Warrens positions are that classic good things government does like education and support for health care and other basic "public goods" are beneficial and that the rich which have benefited so much from America should pay their fair share.

But she recognizes also that freedom of enterprise is the best basic system -- e.g. she says, "I'm capitalist to the bone." (Warren has said this several times to make it clear she's likes free enterprise and knows it is what has been shown to work best)

So, you have here the best of all positions:

Free Enterprise along the Rule of Law (and less corruption)

More fair sharing of the burden for a good level of public goods (education, the environment, healthcare)

And an absence of ideological trickery and the inevitable bad outcomes of any ideology.

----------
In practical terms, voting for Warren won't give the election to Sanders, and also won't give it to Biden unless Biden can win her endorsement in the convention... See how that's good: if Biden wins he should take her as his running mate or a prominent member of the cabinet.
Warren has lied and flip-flopped herself out of the race. Shes done.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Yes, in the long run capitalism doesn't work once AI and machines are advanced enough that no labor of any kind is really able to command wages. Even if we are the art finally, there has to be a way for the non artists to live in that future time. Perhaps all production will become public production. But something else, a different transistion, is likely before that kind of future i think.

I am a strong supporter of UBI only because it makes the economy very strong and all the money comes right back to the people who pay the taxes. You can't redistribute wealth. Wealth is a system of leverage.

I'm not big believer true AI ever becoming a reality anytime soon. I've spent a lot of time studying John Searle who makes some very strong arguments on the nature of consciousness. As a result of studying John Searle I am convinced AI is not going to happen anytime soon:


But if Strong AI does happen, then I think Strong AI systems would be no different than humans in causing issues with working:


We've always had automation eliminate jobs. The problem is not job creation but too much gouging of the worker. The problems with our country are not rocket science. The billionaires pay the lobbyists to pass legislation creating cartels and monopolies in exchange for campaign financing. With the price fixing of products and services along with the price fixing of wages based on government published data the result is extreme levels of wealthy inequality not seen since the age of Robber Barons.

I think Marx is right. What the CEOs and billionaires are doing is theft from the worker. For me, what difference does it make if we raise taxes on the billionaires. Why would one type of theft be better than the other type? Theft is theft. This is why I like Sanders so much because he's determined to make the top 1% pay their fair share, that is, change one type of theft for the other type. If we just return to Bill Clinton era tax rates we would probably have a budget surplus again.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
The ones comparing Sanders to nazis are themselves the real nazis.
 
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