Still don’t think white privilege exist?

[Twilight Hue]

So do you think if say, Oprah Winfrey had had the same charges she would have gotten a longer sentence because she is black? No, I seriously doubt it.

Even if she was sentenced and jailed, do you think the prison/social club she would be sent to would still have an ample supply of crumpets and tea on hand since Martha Stewart's stay? ;0)

Martha Stewart passed time in prison in the most Martha Stewart way possible – Women in the World

Even wealthy black men did pretty well....

Bill Cosby thinks prison is an 'amazing experience,' compares himself to MLK

 

[Augustus]

Aside from the Felicity Huffman’s situation where her class as well as her race benefitted her only allowing her to only serve 14 days behind bars (as opposed to the black woman who served 5 years for almost the exact same crime), check this out

Reasoning from single incidences is not evidence in favour of 'white privilege' or any form of discrimination in any situation where there is natural variance in outcomes. I'm sure you can find many instances of individual black offenders being given lighter sentences than individual white offenders. If someone used one such example to 'prove' racial bias didn't exist I'm pretty sure you wouldn't accept it as persuasive.

This is the problem with concepts like 'white privilege' or 'systemic racism': they cause people to consider every case as being racially driven and thus vastly overstate the degree of discrimination even if such discrimination exists on average. They are also ubiquitous, so any differences in outcomes automatically get put down to privilege/racism without the need to actually prove anything.

Individual cases are memorable, easy to share, discuss and promote, but ultimately they are generally not evidence for what is claimed as there are too many unknowns.

Without clear and decisive evidence of racial favouritism or discrimination you can't tell in any individual case even if such discrimination exists on average.

Black offender gets a harsher than average sentence = racism. White offender gets harsher than average sentence = not racism. White person calls the cops on black people minding their own business = obviously racist. White person calls cops on white people minding their own business = interfering busybody.

Racial, Ethnic, and Gender Disparities in Sentencing: Evidence from the U.S. Federal Courts*

From the article you linked to:

One important result from Table 6 is that females receive even shorter sentences
relative to men than whites relative to blacks. The discrimination literature gen-
erally argues that females are objects of discrimination and receive worse out-
comes. In sentencing, however, women receive better outcomes, consistent with
women’s being treated paternalistically in court. Although some contend that the
sentencing guidelines harm women, studies have usually concluded that females
are sentenced more leniently than males.

Why then assume 'white privilege' over 'female privilege', and If black women receive lighter sentences than white men, how does this fit into the narrative?

Also, while I agree that there are certainly good reasons to believe black people, on average, are more harshly treated, there are too many variables to be certain that such discrimination exists, or to what extent it exists.

Limitations of studies are discussed in this paper in both the literature review and the conclusion despite it not arguing against the idea that discrimination exists:

https://www.povertyactionlab.org/sites/default/files/publications/210 Do Judges Vary Sept 2010.pdf

The main idea being that there might be unobservable variables having significant effects and that differences seem to vary by crime type

For example (from your paper):

The racial and gender disparities are largest for bank robbery and
drug trafficking. Most of the difference between Hispanics and whites is from
two crimes—drug trafficking and firearm possession and trafficking. The edu-
cational differences are generated primarily by drug trafficking and are not
statistically significant for other offenses.

It's not as self-evident as is often made out.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

That's not true at all.

Alcohol-impaired drivers are much more likely to kill someone than a non-impaired driver, so they make up a ridiculous percentage of the drivers in fatal collisions (~25% here, apparently around 33% in the US), but when you look at the driver condition for property damage only crashes - which is a better indication of what drivers on the road are doing on average - the number of drivers with alcohol-related driver conditions is very small (~1% here, can't quickly find stats for the US).

The drunk driving issue is really a matter of a small number of people punching seriously above their weight in terms of how many people they kill with their behaviour.

Well I'm going by my own experiences and the many parties I've been to where nurses and doctors with slurred speech drove drunk and haven't been caught. It's tempting fate but sometimes people are very good at it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

This is the problem with concepts like 'white privilege' or 'systemic racism': they cause people to consider every case as being racially driven and thus vastly overstate the degree of discrimination even if such discrimination exists on average.

False. People use white privilege based on the research as well as the historical evidence of a system that has historically favored one ethnic group over others. The very fact that this white woman in my link told the officer she is a thoroughbred, white, clean woman identifies this fact that she is aware of her own privilege as a white woman.

Without clear and decisive evidence of racial favouritism or discrimination you can't tell in any individual case even if such discrimination exists on average.

Research has indicated implicit racial biases looking at scenarios one study looked at "black sounding names" verses "white sounding ones." Sociologists have determined that these implicit racial biases exist in our psyche. So although there are circumstances where there are unknown factors which may not always indicate racial bias or racism, historically we still live in a system that has favored Caucasians.

Why then assume 'white privilege' over 'female privilege', and If black women receive lighter sentences than white men, how does this fit into the narrative?

Since you decided to but in, that response was for someone else who stated that there aren't any evidence for racial biases in giving out sentencing.

 

[Cooky]

Sounds like you weren't under the legal limit, then.

I did some quick Googling: seems that the minimum license suspension for a first-time DUI in Arizona is 90 days. Why did they suspend your license for a full year? Was this not your first offense?

Yep first and only offense. But I had a CDL license, and for CDL holders, the rules are more stict -even if your driving your own personal car.

Commercial DUI Regulations - FindLaw
Most states have adopted the FMCSA regulations forcommercial drivers and alcohol, which set a 0.04 percent blood-alcohol concentration limit. This is half the BAC limit for non-commercial drivers in most states.

 

[Curious George]

Reasoning from single incidences is not evidence in favour of 'white privilege' or any form of discrimination in any situation where there is natural variance in outcomes. I'm sure you can find many instances of individual black offenders being given lighter sentences than individual white offenders. If someone used one such example to 'prove' racial bias didn't exist I'm pretty sure you wouldn't accept it as persuasive.

This is the problem with concepts like 'white privilege' or 'systemic racism': they cause people to consider every case as being racially driven and thus vastly overstate the degree of discrimination even if such discrimination exists on average. They are also ubiquitous, so any differences in outcomes automatically get put down to privilege/racism without the need to actually prove anything.

Individual cases are memorable, easy to share, discuss and promote, but ultimately they are generally not evidence for what is claimed as there are too many unknowns.

Without clear and decisive evidence of racial favouritism or discrimination you can't tell in any individual case even if such discrimination exists on average.

Black offender gets a harsher than average sentence = racism. White offender gets harsher than average sentence = not racism. White person calls the cops on black people minding their own business = obviously racist. White person calls cops on white people minding their own business = interfering busybody.



From the article you linked to:

One important result from Table 6 is that females receive even shorter sentences
relative to men than whites relative to blacks. The discrimination literature gen-
erally argues that females are objects of discrimination and receive worse out-
comes. In sentencing, however, women receive better outcomes, consistent with
women’s being treated paternalistically in court. Although some contend that the
sentencing guidelines harm women, studies have usually concluded that females
are sentenced more leniently than males.

Why then assume 'white privilege' over 'female privilege', and If black women receive lighter sentences than white men, how does this fit into the narrative?

Also, while I agree that there are certainly good reasons to believe black people, on average, are more harshly treated, there are too many variables to be certain that such discrimination exists, or to what extent it exists.

Limitations of studies are discussed in this paper in both the literature review and the conclusion despite it not arguing against the idea that discrimination exists:

https://www.povertyactionlab.org/sites/default/files/publications/210 Do Judges Vary Sept 2010.pdf

The main idea being that there might be unobservable variables having significant effects and that differences seem to vary by crime type

For example (from your paper):

The racial and gender disparities are largest for bank robbery and
drug trafficking. Most of the difference between Hispanics and whites is from
two crimes—drug trafficking and firearm possession and trafficking. The edu-
cational differences are generated primarily by drug trafficking and are not
statistically significant for other offenses.

It's not as self-evident as is often made out.

This is probably my biggest gripe in discussing "privilege." Too many people fail to grasp that privilege is a statistical factor not an individual factor. While race may indeed play a role in individual interactions, privilege is the statistical disparity given by all interactions and historical precedents.

Privilege is a great mechanism for discussing trends where we see demographic disparity. Systematic racism is another great concept for discussing macro-events. Through macro analyses such as these we can better account and compensate for overall trends. I do not think the problem comes from these concepts but rather from people's interpretation of these concepts.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yep first and only offense. But I had a CDL license, and for CDL holders, the rules are more stict -even if your driving your own personal car.

Commercial DUI Regulations - FindLaw
Most states have adopted the FMCSA regulations forcommercial drivers and alcohol, which set a 0.04 percent blood-alcohol concentration limit. This is half the BAC limit for non-commercial drivers in most states.

Wait - so you got the minimum sentence that the law allowed? Why on Earth did you make this out to be something that contradicted @Epic Beard Man 's point about white privilege?

Edit: sounds like your situation was more like the situation of the "too pretty for jail" woman in the video, only in a state with much harsher DUI laws overall.

 

[Cooky]

Wait - so you got the minimum sentence that the law allowed? Why on Earth did you make this out to be something that contradicted @Epic Beard Man 's point about white privilege?

Edit: sounds like your situation was more like the situation of the "too pretty for jail" woman in the video, only in a state with much harsher DUI laws overall.

No... I had my drivers license revoked (could not operate any motor vehicle), had to install a breathalyzer device in my car which was monitored by the State for one full year (after my license was reinstated), I had to attend substance abuse classes, had to go to jail in Sheriff Joe's "tent city", lost my job for 9 months, lived in a tent, and had to take food donations from churches for survival, while being separated from my children.

...All because I had a very slight BAC level.

Does that sound like "getting off easy" to you? Because it basically ruined my life for one year.

If systematic white privilege existed, then why did that happen to me?

 

[David1967]

No... I had my drivers license revoked (could not operate any motor vehicle), had to install a breathalyzer device in my car which was monitored by the State for one full year, I had to attend substance abuse classes, had to go to jail in Sheriff Joe's "tent city", lost my job for 9 months, lived in a tent, and had to take food donations from churches for survival, while being separated from my children.

...All because I had a very slight BAC level.

Does that sound like "getting off easy" to you? Because it basically ruined my life for one year.

Well Landon, you should have evoked your "white privilege".

 

[Cooky]

Well Landon, you should have evoked your "white privilege".

Right..!?

 

[Revoltingest]

Well Landon, you should have evoked invoked your "white privilege".

Improved.

Anyway, I've run across this dysfunctional attitude before...
Black folk who think we whities just have it made....everything is
handed to us...we have all the advantages, yet they have none.
The "system" is often pretty abusive to us too.

How often do you see 'victims' blind to their own privilege?
- Women being exempt from the draft.
- Blacks & women who benefit from affirmative action.
- Protected class people who don't take advantage of the opportunities
they have, & instead wallow in their cocoon of victimhood.

It all makes me want to say....
"Stop whining. Work to better your lot in life. It's all doable."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No... I had my drivers license revoked (could not operate any motor vehicle), had to install a breathalyzer device in my car which was monitored by the State for one full year (after my license was reinstated), I had to attend substance abuse classes, had to go to jail in Sheriff Joe's "tent city", lost my job for 9 months, lived in a tent, and had to take food donations from churches for survival, while being separated from my children.

...All because I had a very slight BAC level.

Does that sound like "getting off easy" to you? Because it basically ruined my life for one year.

If systematic white privilege existed, then why did that happen to me?

Because, from what you've said, that was the most lenient sentence that could be handed out to a CDL holder for a DUI infraction in Arizona. If they gave you a more lenient sentence, they would have been breaking the law... right?

In the OP, @Epic Beard Man pointed out someone - the white woman in the video - who got a significantly more lenient sentence than he did. The other factors were the same: same offense, same California legal framework.

To see the role of white privilege in your case, we'd need to ask what would happen to a black CDL-holder in Arizona who blew over like you did. Making comparisons between different states with different laws is a matter of apples and oranges. It has nothing to do with white privilege.

The fact that your experience was unpleasant tells us nothing about how bad it could have been if you were black, all else being equal.

 

[Shad]

Reasoning from single incidences is not evidence in favour of 'white privilege' or any form of discrimination in any situation where there is natural variance in outcomes. I'm sure you can find many instances of individual black offenders being given lighter sentences than individual white offenders. If someone used one such example to 'prove' racial bias didn't exist I'm pretty sure you wouldn't accept it as persuasive.

This is the problem with concepts like 'white privilege' or 'systemic racism': they cause people to consider every case as being racially driven and thus vastly overstate the degree of discrimination even if such discrimination exists on average. They are also ubiquitous, so any differences in outcomes automatically get put down to privilege/racism without the need to actually prove anything.

Individual cases are memorable, easy to share, discuss and promote, but ultimately they are generally not evidence for what is claimed as there are too many unknowns.

Without clear and decisive evidence of racial favouritism or discrimination you can't tell in any individual case even if such discrimination exists on average.

Black offender gets a harsher than average sentence = racism. White offender gets harsher than average sentence = not racism. White person calls the cops on black people minding their own business = obviously racist. White person calls cops on white people minding their own business = interfering busybody.



From the article you linked to:

One important result from Table 6 is that females receive even shorter sentences
relative to men than whites relative to blacks. The discrimination literature gen-
erally argues that females are objects of discrimination and receive worse out-
comes. In sentencing, however, women receive better outcomes, consistent with
women’s being treated paternalistically in court. Although some contend that the
sentencing guidelines harm women, studies have usually concluded that females
are sentenced more leniently than males.

Why then assume 'white privilege' over 'female privilege', and If black women receive lighter sentences than white men, how does this fit into the narrative?

Also, while I agree that there are certainly good reasons to believe black people, on average, are more harshly treated, there are too many variables to be certain that such discrimination exists, or to what extent it exists.

Limitations of studies are discussed in this paper in both the literature review and the conclusion despite it not arguing against the idea that discrimination exists:

https://www.povertyactionlab.org/sites/default/files/publications/210 Do Judges Vary Sept 2010.pdf

The main idea being that there might be unobservable variables having significant effects and that differences seem to vary by crime type

For example (from your paper):

The racial and gender disparities are largest for bank robbery and
drug trafficking. Most of the difference between Hispanics and whites is from
two crimes—drug trafficking and firearm possession and trafficking. The edu-
cational differences are generated primarily by drug trafficking and are not
statistically significant for other offenses.

It's not as self-evident as is often made out.

This is just what happens when one embraces identity politics. There must always be an oppressor and oppressed/victim or the model fails apart.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well Landon, you should have evoked your "white privilege".

Right because you know, the white woman who was too pretty to go to jail and that she was a thoroughbred white, and clean woman didn't?

 

[Shad]

. The very fact that this white woman in my link told the officer she is a thoroughbred, white, clean woman identifies this fact that she is aware of her own privilege as a white woman.

You didn't watch the video. She never mentions race. She mentioned university, her looks and her record. You are projecting what you want to hear, nothing more. So female privilege at best. You are the one focusing on race not her. Your standard MO of seeing racism in anything.

You have no evidence beside assumptions from your ideology.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You didn't watch the video. She never mentions race. She mentioned university, her looks and her record. You are projecting what you want to hear, nothing more. You are the one focusing on race not her. Your standard MO of seeing racism in anything.

See post #32

Next time don't make yourself look stupid

Here, I'll do the work for you

Here is the in depth article and video per this link

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-too-pretty-for-jail-police-werent-impressed/

Edit: Not in the video but article the police officer wrote:

"Later, at the precinct, police officer Baker Odom wrote in his report, Cutshaw went further. She said she was also a “thoroughbred” and “white, clean girl,” Odom wrote."

Clearly the white woman recognizes her ethnicity as something of privilege.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@Landon Caeli one potential example of privilege pops out from your story:

- you say that you lost your license for a full year.
- you say that you were out of work for 9 months.

Am I right in thinking that this means that while you were getting back on your feet, you worked for 3 months in a job that didn't require you to have a driver's license, despite the fact that your previous experience was as a commercial driver?

How many black people do you think would be able to say the same?

Edit: another example: you say that you lived in a tent in a park campground for 9 months. What sort of park allows someone to camp for 9 months at a stretch? Every park I've ever checked out has rules about how long a person can stay... usually a couple of weeks at most. Did park rangers have to bend the rules for you to stay as long as you did? Did any black campers try to live in the campground without getting kicked out?

 

[Shad]

See post #32

Next time don't make yourself look stupid

No video, no report linked. Ergo no evidence.

Here, I'll do the work for you

Now link the report itself.

Clearly the white woman recognizes her ethnicity as something of privilege.....

All I see is you accepting a news report that does not link the report itself.

You still have not linked your comparison case. You have just asserted it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

No video, no report linked. Ergo no evidence.



Now link the report itself.





All I see is you accepting a news report that does not link the report itself.

There are several articles if you google it that says the woman told the police officer, who wrote in his report, that the woman said she was a clean white woman. It was stated at the precinct which was in the police officer's report.

 

[Shad]

There are several articles if you google it that says the woman told the police officer, who wrote in his report, that the woman said she was a clean white woman. It was stated at the precinct which was in the police officer's report.

I want to see the court or police report not second hand hearsay from a news outlet.

For argument's sake Have you consider she is merely parroting the rhetoric from your own ideology? I've seen a lot of "progressives" try to invoke their ideological based privilege in order to gain a platform or "speak" on behalf of others. The belief in their privilege does not mean it exists.