State of the Dead

[Clear]

Regarding FaithofChristian’s new, modern interpretation of John 5:28-29 to support his new theory.

When other posters point out that the words you are assigning new and strange meanings to are not what the words meant to early Christianity, you responded “i do not go by worldviews. Nor what Christianity thinks.” (FaithofChristian, post #116)


The problem with this attitude is that you are claiming a historical text (John 5:28-19) means something to you that it did not mean to the ancients who wrote it and the ancients who heard the speech and read the text. IF, you make a historical claim, then you must pay attention to historical meaning and historical context else the theory lacks sufficient historical claim to validity and is easily dismissed.

Changing original historical meanings to historical religious words and historical religion disassociates your theory from authentic historical meaning and from authentic historical Christianity. It is the creation of new and different religion or a contamination of the old and original, yet may confuse individuals who think your new interpretations are related to authentic, original “Christianity”. If you named your new religion “spiritual deadism” then this confusion would not occur.

Another problem your attempt to assign different, new meanings to religious words is that the scriptures you use, often do not support your case, but instead support those who are critical of your new theory.

You attempted to use 1 Corinthians 15:55 which in greek is “Που σου, θανατε το νικος που σου, θανατε το κεντρον.” Which means, of course “Death where is your victory, death where is your sting?” This sentence 55 comes on the heels of sentences 53 and 54 where they speak of a “perishable nature must put on the imperishable” and this “mortal nature” which must put on “immortality”. Neither of these references refer to specific lack of belief, but speak to a “perishable nature” and a “lack of immortality”, that is, they are speaking of death and mortality and this context are placed in juxtaposition to resurrection.

Both of the references to θανατε / physical indicate this specific Death is overcome by resurrection (and no reference is made to spiritual death overcome by belief) in this specific example. If the phrast in vs 52 where “the dead will be raised imperishable” means being saved from “lack of belief”, you need to make the case for the linguistic shift in this case.

Your new theory runs into the same problem by your reference to Psalms 49:15 (48:15 in LXX). You example undermines your theory rather than supporting it.

Psalms says “Except God shall ransom my soul from out of [the] hand of hades whenever he should receive [literally : take] me.” The word you are using for “grave” is αδου (“hadou” = hades). As other posters have pointed out, this is a place, not a condition of “lack of belief”.

In relation to your new interpretation of John 2:28-29, none of these examples support your theory and all of these examples undermine it. You cannot expect this theory to float with so many historical and logical holes in it. Please, remain at peace regarding the many posters pointing out the problems with your new religious theory. While it is perfectly fine to theorize anything you want, the problem is that your new theory cannot survive in the world of historical Christianity.

Good journey in life to you FaithofChristian.

Clear
σιτωτζω

 

[Faithofchristian]

Regarding FaithofChristian’s new, modern interpretation of John 5:28-29 to support his new theory.

When other posters point out that the words you are assigning new and strange meanings to are not what the words meant to early Christianity, you responded “i do not go by worldviews. Nor what Christianity thinks.” (FaithofChristian, post #116)


The problem with this attitude is that you are claiming a historical text (John 5:28-19) means something to you that it did not mean to the ancients who wrote it and the ancients who heard the speech and read the text. IF, you make a historical claim, then you must pay attention to historical meaning and historical context else the theory lacks sufficient historical claim to validity and is easily dismissed.

Changing original historical meanings to historical religious words and historical religion disassociates your theory from authentic historical meaning and from authentic historical Christianity. It is the creation of new and different religion or a contamination of the old and original, yet may confuse individuals who think your new interpretations are related to authentic, original “Christianity”. If you named your new religion “spiritual deadism” then this confusion would not occur.

Another problem your attempt to assign different, new meanings to religious words is that the scriptures you use, often do not support your case, but instead support those who are critical of your new theory.

You attempted to use 1 Corinthians 15:55 which in greek is “Που σου, θανατε το νικος που σου, θανατε το κεντρον.” Which means, of course “Death where is your victory, death where is your sting?” This sentence 55 comes on the heels of sentences 53 and 54 where they speak of a “perishable nature must put on the imperishable” and this “mortal nature” which must put on “immortality”. Neither of these references refer to specific lack of belief, but speak to a “perishable nature” and a “lack of immortality”, that is, they are speaking of death and mortality and this context are placed in juxtaposition to resurrection.

Both of the references to θανατε / physical indicate this specific Death is overcome by resurrection (and no reference is made to spiritual death overcome by belief) in this specific example. If the phrast in vs 52 where “the dead will be raised imperishable” means being saved from “lack of belief”, you need to make the case for the linguistic shift in this case.

Your new theory runs into the same problem by your reference to Psalms 49:15 (48:15 in LXX). You example undermines your theory rather than supporting it.

Psalms says “Except God shall ransom my soul from out of [the] hand of hades whenever he should receive [literally : take] me.” The word you are using for “grave” is αδου (“hadou” = hades). As other posters have pointed out, this is a place, not a condition of “lack of belief”.

In relation to your new interpretation of John 2:28-29, none of these examples support your theory and all of these examples undermine it. You cannot expect this theory to float with so many historical and logical holes in it. Please, remain at peace regarding the many posters pointing out the problems with your new religious theory. While it is perfectly fine to theorize anything you want, the problem is that your new theory cannot survive in the world of historical Christianity.

Good journey in life to you FaithofChristian.

Clear
σιτωτζω

Your the only that's calling it a Theory.

Just because you have no knowledge or understanding of Spiritual things, that are given by the Spirit of God.

You know it is written --- "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned" 1 Cor 2:14.

Seeing how you fit the above, What is given by the Spirit of God, you call foolishness.

Isn't it amazing how you fulfill Prophecy.

 

[Clear]

Regarding FaithofChristian’s theory and new interpretation of Christian text at John 5:28-29

…I believe that many, if not all, scriptural references to the "grave" refer to the physical grave. Both "hell" and "prison" have been used to describe the place or state-of-being of the spiritually dead who are also physical dead (i.e. before the physical Resurrection). Christ's teaching about those in their graves hearing His voice and rising is in reference to the literal physical Resurrection of the dead that will occur at His Second Coming, during His Millennial Reign and before the Final Judgment.

I don't know where you got your interpretation, but the very next verse in John 5 disagrees with what you shared by recording what was to happen to "all that are in the graves" after they were to "hear his voice", "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29) Christ told His disciples not to marvel, not because He was referring to the literal grave, but because He was claiming that those dead people who are lying in their literal graves shall one day arise in a physical Resurrection.

I'm sorry, but your explanation of John 5:28-29, is too convoluted. It clearly speaks of "those in the Memorial tombs [that] will come out". It's a literal resurrection, from literal graves, at a future time. In the next chapter (John 6:40), Jesus said it will occur "in the last day".....apparently Martha heard this, and in John 11, when Lazarus dies, Martha tells Jesus she knows her brother will be resurrected "in the last day." But then Jesus resurrects him right there, right from a literal grave. And it was a literal resurrection. As is the one described in Daniel 12:2. It's the only kind of resurrection the ancient Jews understood.

Please tell me where Christ says I am talking about a grave, but I am totally changing the definition of the word. I don't mean a place where dead people go, I am really talking about where living people go" I have looked diligently and just can't find it..

Interesting, but Biblical support for your comments would help your argument, immensely

FaithofChristian, IF you are going to develop a new theory and offer it to a public venue, you must expect that it will be looked at to see if it has any validity. Your responses where you claim others simply "do not have 'the spirit' do not help to support your theory. Individuals in the forums want data and logic and rational thought and coherence. You cannot blame them for pointing out that your theory lacks these important elements.

I am NOT trying to hurt your feelings or simply give you grief. I am simply pointing out (with the other posters), the historical problems that cause errors in your new theory and in your interpretation. If this new theory of new interpretation is valid, it should be consistent with biblical verses. However, in this case, the historical text itself, repudiates the theory and interpretation.

The early Judeo-Christians spoke of the happenings described in John 5:28-29 in their early writings and it’s meaning in the early Christian context in their own words. For example, The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts and they are very clear that Christ went to the world of spirits.

For example, in The Gospel of Bartholomew, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying :"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)


Multiple early Christian texts witness to the earliest beliefs. As part of the "decensus genre" of texts, the early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection : “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

The “dead” in this entire genre of early Christian textual witnesses ARE actually individuals who have died. They are not merely the “spiritually dead” but the spirits here include those who believe in Jesus, including ancient prophets. I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching these individuals, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of mankind, and many other spirits are also “called to testify”. Though the Story of Dymas, the thief on the cross with Jesus is incomplete, it is clear that Jesus’ Promise that he would be in this “paradise” with other spirits was fulfilled as the early Christian literature describes.

Speaking of these spirits in the middle, it is recorded that Dymas was given a cross and sent to “paradise” with the other spirits who were awaiting resurrection : While they were saying this there came another, a humble man, carrying a cross on his shoulder. The holy fathers asked him: “who are you, who have the appearance of a robber, and what is the cross you carry on your shoulder?” He answered: “I was, as you say, a robber and a thief in the world, and therefore the jews took me and delivered me to the death of the cross together with our Lord Jesus Christ. When, therefore, he hung on the cross, I saw the wonders which happened and believed in him. And I appealed to him and said: ‘Lord, when you reign as king, do nor forget me.’ And immediately he said to me: ‘Truly, truly, today, I say to you, you shall be with me in Paradise’ [Lk 23:43]. So I came into Paradise carrying my cross, and found Michael the archangel, and said to him: ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified, has sent me here. Lead me, therefore, to the gate of Eden.’...Then the archangel said to me: ‘Wait a short while. For Adam also, the forefather of the race of men, comes with the righteous, that they also may enter in....(Ch XI> The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell)

The point of all this reference to early Judao-Christian texts is to confirm that the earliest Christians themselves believed that there was indeed a place of cognizant spirits between death and resurrection and Jesus promise to Dymas was fulfilled in this early Judao-Christian Context. Those who are “in the graves” and those who are in their “memorial tombs” are actually, physically, dead, and not living individuals "in a state of unbelief".

Please be at peace. I am NOT faulting the attempt to create meaning or the creation of a new theory of what an ancient text meant. The problem is that your theory disobeys so many historical rules that it cannot survive in the world of religious history.


Good luck and good journey FaithofChristian.


Clear
σιφιτζω

 

[Faithofchristian]

Regarding FaithofChristian’s theory and new interpretation of Christian text at John 5:28-29












FaithofChristian, IF you are going to develop a new theory and offer it to a public venue, you must expect that it will be looked at to see if it has any validity. Your responses where you claim others simply "do not have 'the spirit' do not help to support your theory. Individuals in the forums want data and logic and rational thought and coherence. You cannot blame them for pointing out that your theory lacks these important elements.

I am NOT trying to hurt your feelings or simply give you grief. I am simply pointing out (with them), the historical problems that cause errors in your new theory and in your interpretation. If this new theory of new interpretation is valid, it should be consistent with biblical verses. However, in this case, the historical text itself, repudiates the theory and interpretation.

The early Judeo-Christians spoke of the happenings described in John 5:28-29 in their early writings and it’s meaning in the early Christian context in their own words. For example, The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts and they are very clear that Christ went to the world of spirits.

For example, in The Gospel of Bartholomew, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying :"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)


Multiple early Christian texts witness to the earliest beliefs. As part of the "decensus genre" of texts, the early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection : “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

The “dead” in this entire genre of early Christian textual witnesses ARE actually individuals who have died. They are not merely the “spiritually dead” but the spirits here include those who believe in Jesus, including ancient prophets. I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching these individuals, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of mankind, and many other spirits are also “called to testify”. Though the Story of Dymas, the thief on the cross with Jesus is incomplete, it is clear that Jesus’ Promise that he would be in this “paradise” with other spirits was fulfilled as the early Christian literature describes.

Speaking of these spirits in the middle, it is recorded that Dymas was given a cross and sent to “paradise” with the other spirits who were awaiting resurrection : While they were saying this there came another, a humble man, carrying a cross on his shoulder. The holy fathers asked him: “who are you, who have the appearance of a robber, and what is the cross you carry on your shoulder?” He answered: “I was, as you say, a robber and a thief in the world, and therefore the jews took me and delivered me to the death of the cross together with our Lord Jesus Christ. When, therefore, he hung on the cross, I saw the wonders which happened and believed in him. And I appealed to him and said: ‘Lord, when you reign as king, do nor forget me.’ And immediately he said to me: ‘Truly, truly, today, I say to you, you shall be with me in Paradise’ [Lk 23:43]. So I came into Paradise carrying my cross, and found Michael the archangel, and said to him: ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified, has sent me here. Lead me, therefore, to the gate of Eden.’...Then the archangel said to me: ‘Wait a short while. For Adam also, the forefather of the race of men, comes with the righteous, that they also may enter in....(Ch XI> The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell)

The point of all this reference to early Judao-Christian texts is to confirm that the earliest Christians themselves believed that there was indeed a place of cognizant spirits between death and resurrection and Jesus promise to Dymas was fulfilled in this early Judao-Christian Context. Those who are “in the graves” and those who are in their “memorial tombs” are actually, physically, dead, and not living individuals "in a state of unbelief".

Please be at peace. I am NOT faulting the attempt to create meaning or the creation of a new theory of what an ancient text meant. The problem is that your theory disobeys so many historical rules that it cannot survive in the world of religious history.


Good luck and good journey FaithofChristian.


Clear
σιφιτζω

Your not hurting my feeling not at all.

You claim the world view, You go to the world and I'll go to God's word for my answers.
You think for some reason that God and his word are to line up, to the world view.

What your trying to do is limit God's word, But still you have no spiritual understanding, When it come to Spiritual understanding of things in God's word.

You know in the book of Mark 13,Christ Jesus fortold what the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, and when it will happen and who can commit it.
Have you any spiritual understanding of these things ?

 

[shmogie]

Thank you for benediction at the end of your post. Of course, you know my response. There is significant, some say conclusive evidence that the Canonical gospels were in circulation by 100 AD. It is reasonable to conclude that they were in verbal circulation much earlier than that. The Written Gospels were in circulation within the lifetimes of many who knew Jesus. If these Gospels were in error, there would be record of them being so. They are essentially consistent with one another. The non Canonical Gospels in comparison are not consistent with the originals, nor can they be proven to have been written nearly as early. Therefore they cannot be true, therefore they cannot be used to establish true Christian doctrine.

Peace to you

 

[Faithofchristian]

Thank you for benediction at the end of your post. Of course, you know my response. There is significant, some say conclusive evidence that the Canonical gospels were in circulation by 100 AD. It is reasonable to conclude that they were in verbal circulation much earlier than that. The Written Gospels were in circulation within the lifetimes of many who knew Jesus. If these Gospels were in error, there would be record of them being so. They are essentially consistent with one another. The non Canonical Gospels in comparison are not consistent with the originals, nor can they be proven to have been written nearly as early. Therefore they cannot be true, therefore they cannot be used to establish true Christian doctrine.

Peace to you

What makes you think the Gospels are not true ?

All you have is what a non-Christian will say and you expect a Christian to take the word of a non- Christian.

Let's see, would you take the word of a Christian over scientist. Of course you wouldn't, but yet you expect a Christian to take the word of a non-Christian over the word of a Christian, You got to be kidding.

There have been many Christians Scholars that have found the Gospels to be true. So are you willing to take their word on it.

Guess not, but you expect a Christian to take the word of a non- Christian.
What's that all about. Go Figure

 

[Trailblazer]

There are many people who do not understand the grave in which they see is literal. But the grave in which Jesus speaks about is Spiritual.

Let's look back before Christ Jesus came into this world, Ok

Now back before Christ came into this world, when people died their spirit was held captive in the grave.

Now that Christ Jesus came into the world and in his death and Resurrection from the tomb, (grave) Christ Jesus got victory over the grave, that we are no longer held captive in the grave, but our spirit is set free to return back to God.

Otherwise how can the bible (scriptures)
say--- "O death, where is your sting ?
O grave where is your victory"
1 Corinthians 15:55.

"But thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"
1 Corinthians 15:57.

"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me"
Psalm 49:15

This is exactly what Christ Jesus did, got the victory over the grave, that we are not held captive by the grave either.

In the book of John Chapter 12, here we find Christ Jesus called Lazarus out of his grave, this further illustrates that Christ Jesus has the power and victory over the grave.
like Christ Jesus risen from his
tomb (grave) our Spirit will rise out of the grave also, for Christ Jesus has the power and victory over the grave.
The grave has no power over us also, for by Christ Jesus the grave has no power over us either. To hold us captive.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" 2 Corinthians 5:8.

In the Bible…

Fallen asleep and dead refer to a spiritual state, asleep in Christ, dead in Christ.

Alive and rising do not refer to physically alive or rising from graves; they refer to being spiritually alive and rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ’s teachings.

If you read these verses in context you will see how similar what Jesus said is to what Baha’u’llah wrote.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That verse refers to the hour when Baha’u’llah will come to resurrect the religion of God.

“Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy,others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them.His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

How can anyone possibly believe this refers to the death of a physical body?

Where did Jesus ever talk about rising from the grave? Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. “The dead” refers to those who are spiritually dead. Being born of the spirit has nothing to do with the physical body. It means spiritual rebirth; Jesus only ever talked about spiritual rebirth, never about the rising of bodies from physical graves.

Resurrection: resurrection› the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or existence.
resurrection Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

“It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170

“The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62-63

 

[Trailblazer]

My friend, not at all obvious from the Christian scriptures. In fact, human immortality is not a pure Christian concept. It is a fusion of Christian beliefs and pagan ( non Christian ) beliefs for the Christian. It is the hallmark of virtually all pagan belief systems

I cannot get into a discussion about this tonight because I am on the run. For now, the passage below explains what I believe about the terms life and death and resurrection...

The Great Resurrection

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222

 

[Faithofchristian]

In the Bible…

Fallen asleep and dead refer to a spiritual state, asleep in Christ, dead in Christ.

Alive and rising do not refer to physically alive or rising from graves; they refer to being spiritually alive and rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ’s teachings.

If you read these verses in context you will see how similar what Jesus said is to what Baha’u’llah wrote.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That verse refers to the hour when Baha’u’llah will come to resurrect the religion of God.

“Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy,others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them.His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

How can anyone possibly believe this refers to the death of a physical body?

Where did Jesus ever talk about rising from the grave? Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. “The dead” refers to those who are spiritually dead. Being born of the spirit has nothing to do with the physical body. It means spiritual rebirth; Jesus only ever talked about spiritual rebirth, never about the rising of bodies from physical graves.

Resurrection: resurrection› the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or existence.
resurrection Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

“It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170

“The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62-63

Jesus said in John 5:28--"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"

Why do you suppose Jesus said
( Marvel not at this ?)
Because his elect people will know exactly what Jesus ment by the grave.
Jesus is not speaking about a literal grave as in a hole in the ground.

The grave in which Jesus is speaking about
is Spiritual and not a literal grave as in a hole in the ground.

Notice also, Jesus said ( for the hour is coming )
So what is that hour that Jesus spoke of,
In reference to ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said in John 5:28--"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"

Why do you suppose Jesus said
( Marvel not at this ?)
Because his elect people will know exactly what Jesus meant by the grave.
Jesus is not speaking about a literal grave as in a hole in the ground.

Yes, that could be the reason Jesus said this. The elect will know what is meant by graves so don’t be astonished. I think Jesus also meant not to be astonished when those who are spiritually dead come to life and hear his voice.

The grave in which Jesus is speaking about
is Spiritual and not a literal grave as in a hole in the ground.

Notice also, Jesus said ( for the hour is coming )
So what is that hour that Jesus spoke of,
In reference to ?

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe that verse refers to the hour when Baha’u’llah, a Manifestation of God, will come to resurrect the religion of God.

“It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170

“The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62-63

 

[Faithofchristian]

Yes, that could be the reason Jesus said this. The elect will know what is meant by graves so don’t be astonished. I think Jesus also meant not to be astonished when those who are spiritually dead come to life and hear his voice.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe that verse refers to the hour when Baha’u’llah, a Manifestation of God, will come to resurrect the religion of God.

“It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170

“The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62-63

Ok, so who would you consider to be the Spiritual dead ?

The hour in which Jesus spoke of,
has nothing to do with religions.

The hour that Jesus is speaking of, takes place at his coming

But there is a Prophecy to be fulfilled just before Jesus returns. That when this Prophecy happens, then Jesus returns. But not until this Prophecy happens first.

That when this Prophecy happens, then by the voice of Jesus then the Spiritual dead shall rise.

But who are the Spiritual dead ?
I know who the Spiritual dead are, But do you know who the Spiritual dead are ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, so who would you consider to be the Spiritual dead ?

I do not feel it is my place to say who is spiritually dead, only God can know who is spiritually dead. However, according to my religion, anyone who has not recognized Baha’u’llah is spiritually dead.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169

The hour in which Jesus spoke of, has nothing to do with religions.

The hour that Jesus is speaking of, takes place at his coming.

Baha’is believe that Jesus has returned in the Person of Baha’u’llah. We do not believe that the same man Jesus ever planned to return. Jesus said His work was finished and He was going to the Father.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

But there is a Prophecy to be fulfilled just before Jesus returns. That when this Prophecy happens, then Jesus returns. But not until this Prophecy happens first.

That when this Prophecy happens, then by the voice of Jesus then the Spiritual dead shall rise.

What prophecy is this?

But who are the Spiritual dead ?
I know who the Spiritual dead are, But do you know who the Spiritual dead are ?

They are everyone who has not heard the Voice of Baha’u’llah:
https://www.religiousforums.com/bible/john/5:28-29/
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those verses refer to the hour when Baha’u’llah will come and fulfill the promises of Jesus.

“Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy,others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them.His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42

 

[Prestor John]

Regarding FaithofChristian’s theory and new interpretation of Christian text at John 5:28-29












FaithofChristian, IF you are going to develop a new theory and offer it to a public venue, you must expect that it will be looked at to see if it has any validity. Your responses where you claim others simply "do not have 'the spirit' do not help to support your theory. Individuals in the forums want data and logic and rational thought and coherence. You cannot blame them for pointing out that your theory lacks these important elements.

I am NOT trying to hurt your feelings or simply give you grief. I am simply pointing out (with the other posters), the historical problems that cause errors in your new theory and in your interpretation. If this new theory of new interpretation is valid, it should be consistent with biblical verses. However, in this case, the historical text itself, repudiates the theory and interpretation.

The early Judeo-Christians spoke of the happenings described in John 5:28-29 in their early writings and it’s meaning in the early Christian context in their own words. For example, The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts and they are very clear that Christ went to the world of spirits.

For example, in The Gospel of Bartholomew, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying :"I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)


Multiple early Christian texts witness to the earliest beliefs. As part of the "decensus genre" of texts, the early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection : “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians and were NOT baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

The “dead” in this entire genre of early Christian textual witnesses ARE actually individuals who have died. They are not merely the “spiritually dead” but the spirits here include those who believe in Jesus, including ancient prophets. I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching these individuals, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of mankind, and many other spirits are also “called to testify”. Though the Story of Dymas, the thief on the cross with Jesus is incomplete, it is clear that Jesus’ Promise that he would be in this “paradise” with other spirits was fulfilled as the early Christian literature describes.

Speaking of these spirits in the middle, it is recorded that Dymas was given a cross and sent to “paradise” with the other spirits who were awaiting resurrection : While they were saying this there came another, a humble man, carrying a cross on his shoulder. The holy fathers asked him: “who are you, who have the appearance of a robber, and what is the cross you carry on your shoulder?” He answered: “I was, as you say, a robber and a thief in the world, and therefore the jews took me and delivered me to the death of the cross together with our Lord Jesus Christ. When, therefore, he hung on the cross, I saw the wonders which happened and believed in him. And I appealed to him and said: ‘Lord, when you reign as king, do nor forget me.’ And immediately he said to me: ‘Truly, truly, today, I say to you, you shall be with me in Paradise’ [Lk 23:43]. So I came into Paradise carrying my cross, and found Michael the archangel, and said to him: ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified, has sent me here. Lead me, therefore, to the gate of Eden.’...Then the archangel said to me: ‘Wait a short while. For Adam also, the forefather of the race of men, comes with the righteous, that they also may enter in....(Ch XI> The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell)

The point of all this reference to early Judao-Christian texts is to confirm that the earliest Christians themselves believed that there was indeed a place of cognizant spirits between death and resurrection and Jesus promise to Dymas was fulfilled in this early Judao-Christian Context. Those who are “in the graves” and those who are in their “memorial tombs” are actually, physically, dead, and not living individuals "in a state of unbelief".

Please be at peace. I am NOT faulting the attempt to create meaning or the creation of a new theory of what an ancient text meant. The problem is that your theory disobeys so many historical rules that it cannot survive in the world of religious history.


Good luck and good journey FaithofChristian.


Clear
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Thank you for the references.

These things align very well with Latter-Day Saint beliefs and teachings.

 

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Thank you for the references.

These things align very well with Latter-Day Saint beliefs and teachings.

Hi Prestor John :

Yes, they do align with LDS theology and with historical restoration or return to the earliest Christian theology. This was one of the reasons I first became interested in the restorational movement (i.e. A Christian movement that is attempting to determine and return to the earliest base Christian beliefs). Your restorational LDS beliefs allow you to use early Judeo-Christian texts with their base worldviews and interpretations because your beliefs parallel early Christian textual beliefs on this subject. The later modern theories and more modern Christian movements cannot use the early texts with the same comfortable ease since the later theologian derived theories are different than early Christianity. This ability you have to recognize parallels to your beliefs inside early Christian texts means something very important.

For example, the early JudeoChristian texts describe the orthodox belief that the spirits of all individuals who came into this life and lived and died would then go to Hades/Sheol/the Grave/Paradise/the world of spirits (whatever name one chooses to call this world of spirits) and that, as part of the Messiahs atonement, he would visit this world of spirits and release these “captives” as they progressed and processed into their resurrection and judgment.


1) ALL WHO DIE ENTER HADES/SHEOL/THE GRAVE/THE WORLD OF SPIRITS

"do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death." Testament of Abraham (recension A) 8:9;

Thus, the sons of Simeon described this universal occurrence : “We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world.” (Gosp of Nicodemus)

" And Death said, "Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades, kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades." Testament of Abraham (recension A) 19:72



a) The messiah himself was to enter hades as part of the atonement

The early Judeo-Christian literature not only describes the doctrine and the promise that the messiah will enter Hades and free its’ inhabitants, but the early literature describes the messiahs descent itself.

The chapter entitled “Christ's descent into hell” from The Gospel of Nicodemus is a good example. The text describes that "While Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: "Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in."

The two sons of Simeon described events of the decensus of Jesus into hades. Their description even describes the discussions between the dead Prophets who were in Hades / Sheol / spirit world at this time (that is, they are quoting the dead prophets speaking from inside the world of spirits)

"The prophet David said: "Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: 'Lift up your gates, O rulers" (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: "I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: "The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice" (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.?" (1 cor 15:55, taken as referring to Isa 25:8)......the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined." "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord…” The Gospel of Nicodemus - Christs' descent into hell

In the Gospel of Bartholomew Bartholomew receives a description of Jesus’ descent into the underworld from the savior himself. Jesus said “And the angels cried to the mighty ones: 'Open your gates, you princes, for the King of glory has come down to the underworld ...And thereupon they dashed in pieces the gates of brass and I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross." (The patriarchs are there)

This association of a promise of release from Hades associated with the Messianic Atonement is reflected in multiple texts. Thus, not only is Christ, the messiah able to claim “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” Rev 1:12-17 but the Messiah is also able to say "I opened closed doors, shattered bars of iron. My own shackles melted. Nothing appeared closed because I was the door to everything. I freed slaves, left no man in bonds, I spread my knowledge and love and sowed my fruits in hearts and transformed them. I blessed them. They lived. I gathered them and saved them. They became the limbs of my body and I was their head. " THE ODES OF SOLOMON ODE17 ;

This triumphant entry of the messiah into Hades and the promise to free spirits from its’ clutches was woven into early texts : “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption…” Psalms 16:10

Psalms 153, similarly, describes this same promise : “For he delivered the physical life of his elect one from the hands of death; and he redeemed his holy one from destruction. 3 And he saved me from the snares of Sheol; and brought me forth from the abyss that is inscrutable " Psalms of David (more of them) psalm 153:2-3;

Ode 29 is another example of the ancient promise to be freed from hades/sheol/the spirit world by the messiah. "…according to his mercies he raised me, and according to his great honor he lifted me up. 4 And he caused me to ascend from the depths of Sheol, and from the mouth of Death he drew me". Odes of Solomon #29, 1-4

Ode #42 Offers more detail as Christ speaks of his decensus and the subsequent gathering (congregating) of those spirits of the dead in Sheol/Hades/the grave/spirit world and their ultimate release. " ….I did not perish although they thought it of me. Sheol saw me and was shattered, and Death ejected me and many with me. I have been vinegar and bitterness to it, and I went down with it as far as its depth. Then the feet and the head it released, because it was not able to endure my face. And I made a congregation of living among his dead; and I spoke with them by living lips; in order that my word may not fail. And those who had died ran toward me; and they cried out and said, 'Son of God, have pity on us. 'And deal with us according to your kindness, and bring us out from the chains of darkness. 'And open for us the door by which we may go forth to you, for we perceive that our death does not approach you.' Odes of Solomon #42 vs 10-17

This promise of release from the “prison” of hades which is repeated so often in the scriptures is merely a repetition of the promise made to Adam.

In the Testament of Adam, Adam is told by this God that “I am consigning you to death, and the maggot and the worm will eat your body."...But after a short time there will be mercy on you …..For your sake I will taste death and enter the house of the dead....'And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity…" Testament of Adam 3:1-4. Other texts describing the release of Adam from hades/sheol/the grave/spirit world are simply a fulfillment of this specific promise.

The Gospel of Bartholomew demonstrates this doctrine when he asks Jesus "Lord, I saw you again hanging on the cross and all the dead arising and worshiping you. Tell me, Lord, who was he whom the angels carried in their arms, that exceedingly large man? And what did you say to him that he groaned so deeply?" Jesus replied "It was Adam, the first created, for whose sake I came down from heaven upon the earth. And I said to him: 'I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.'


Other texts witness to this early doctrine. The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra reads : "Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades." And God said to him, "Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades so that the race of men [...lacuna....] Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken." The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4;

The orthodoxy of this doctrine in early Christianity is signaled by multiple forms of this doctrine. It appears in the Gospel of Nicodemus thusly : “....the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: "Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross." With that he put them all out. Ch IX> Thus he [the messiah] went into Paradise holding our forefather Adam by the hand, and he handed him over and all the righteous to Michael the archangel." Christs descent into hell (Gospel of Nicodemus)

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b) As part of the atonement, the Messiah himself entered hades; taught and freed those there, thus the messiah frees both the living and the dead

In Apoc of Abraham 10:5-17, the pre-mortal messiah said to Abraham : "...Stand up, Abraham, friend of god who has loved you….For lo! I am sent to you to strengthen you and to bless you in the name of God, creator of heavenly and earthly things, who has loved you.... I am ordered to loosen Hades and to destroy those who wondered at the dead.... I am assigned (to be) with you and with the generations which is predestined (to be born) from you." Apoc of Abraham 10:5, 11,14-17


Benjamin speaks to his son when he offers a similar testimony regarding the messiah : "[He] shall enter the first temple, and there the Lord will be abused and will be raised up on wood. And the temple curtain shall be torn, and the spirit of God will move on to all the nations as a fire is poured out. And he shall ascend from Hades and shall pass on from earth to heaven." Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Benjamin 9:1-3


2) THE MESSIAH WAS SENT TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL AMONG THE LIVING AND THE DEAD SO THAT ALL HAVE A CHANCE TO HEAR

There were millions who lived and died in various portions of the world that had no prior knowledge of the messiah, and thus did not have a chance to accept nor reject his message in this life. Thus, part of the purpose of his visit was to allow these individuals to hear his message. No one could be justly punished unless they had the chance to accept or reject his message.


Thus, New Testament John says : “…The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:25-29

The great 4th century Uncial Sinaiticus contains the Book Hermas in this early Christian New Testament canon. The 4th Century new testament also speaks of dead prophets and apostles and teachers who continue to preach among the dead.

"…when these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God fell asleep (died) in the power and faith of the Son of God, they preached also to those who had previously fallen asleep (died), and they themselves gave to them the seal of the preaching.”

The text compares those who received the covenant (the “seal”) of Christianity when alive to those who received it after death in the following words : “Therefore they [the living] went down with them into the water, and came up again. But these went down alive and came up alive, whereas those who had previously fallen asleep [the dead] went down dead and came up alive. So they were made alive through them, and came to full knowledge of the name of the Son of God. This is why they also came up with them and were fitted together with them into the structure of the tower [God’s great assembly], and were joined together without being hewn, for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, only they did not have this seal. You now have the explanation of these things as well." Hermas - The Shepherd 93: 1-7;


3) RESURRECTION FROM HADES / HELL / SHEOL / THE GRAVE / THE WORLD OF SPIRITS


Thus, in this early doctrine, the Gospel is not merely preached among the dead who have had no chance to here it in this life, but the decensus of the savior into the spirit world culminates in the exit of sheol of those who are resurrected in this first resurrection. “...In Those days, Sheol will return all the deposits which she had received and hell will give back all that which it owes. And he shall choose the righteous and the holy ones from among (the risen dead), for the day when they shall be selected and saved has arrived. ...And the faces of all the angels in heaven shall glow with joy, because on that day the Elect One has arisen." V 1 p 36 1st Enoch 51:1-5


The messiahs specific ministry of Release of individuals from hades/Sheol/the Grave/spirit world was also woven into early liturgical texts. For example, multiple Hellenistic Synagogal prayers reflect this early doctrine. “But when man was disobedient, You took away his deserved life. You did not make it disappear absolutely, but for a time, having put (him) to sleep for a little (while), by an oath you have called (him forth) to new birth. You have loosed the boundary of death, You who are the Maker of life for the dead, through Jesus Christ, our hope!” Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - #3:1, 18,24-27; (c.f. on 7.34.1-8) The other Hellenistic Synagogal prayers dealing with this specific incident sound very, very similar.

The early Apocalypse of Zephaniah speaks of this doctrine of entry into and ascend from hades thusly : “Prevail! O one who has prevailed. For you have triumphed over the accuser, and you have escaped from the abyss and Hades. You will now cross over the crossing place. For your name is written in the Book of the Living." Apocalypse of Zephaniah 9:1-2

the modern, western New Testament, the same concept of redemption from Sheol / Hades / death / grave / spirit world before judgment is also referenced, thus, “…the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Rev 20:11-13;

The doctrine is dealt with in early Odes as well "The Lord is my hope… He led me out of the depths of Sheol and led me out of the mouth of death. I laid my enemies low and he justified me through his grace. I believed in him, I believed in the Messiah, and he came to me and he showed me his sign and led me by way of his light." THE ODES OF SOLOMON ODE 29


4) THOSE WHO ENTER HADES, AND WHO EXIT TO RESURRECTION, ALSO COME TO A JUDGMENT

Apocalypse (i.e. Book of Revelations) appearing in the “modern, western, New Testament summarizes this early doctrine by the words :" And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Rev 20:11-13

Earlier it was noted that Jewish Enoch said : "In Those days, Sheol will return all the deposits which she had received and hell will give back all that which it owes." Not only did the writers of the New Testament use Enoch for source of quotes and doctrines such as this, but Pseudo-Philo quotes the doctrine in very similar description to Enoch saying ; “… I will bring the dead to life and raise up those who are sleeping from the earth. And hell will pay back its debt, and the place of perdition will return its deposit so that I may render to each according to his works and according to the fruits of his own devices, until I judge between soul and flesh." Pseudo-Philo 3:10


The Apocalypse of Zephania also reflects this doctrine of the messiah, who triumphs over Satan, (the accuser) and a messiah who, though arriving in Hades, escapes and then lives again. "Then a great angel came forth having a golden trumpet in his hand, and he blew it three times over my head, saying, 'Be courageous! O one who has triumphed. Prevail! O one who has prevailed. For you have triumphed over the accuser, and you have escaped from the abyss and Hades. 2 You will now cross over the crossing place. For your name is written in the Book of the Living." Apocalypse of Zephaniah 9:1-2;

Speaking of these spirits it was said that AGreat joy and eternal light have been prepared for the righteous and for the sinners there have been prepared the outer darkness and the eternal fire.@ The Questions of Ezra (Recension A) vs 3;

The dead sea scrolls refers to this Judeo-Christian doctrine of the Messiah, releasing souls from Sheol/Hades/the Grave/spirit world before judgment (Abbadon is another name for this place) "I give thanks to You, O Lord, for You have redeemed my soul from the pit. From Sheol and Abbadon You have raised me up to an eternal height, so that I might walk about on a limitless plain, and know that there is hope for him whom you created from the dust for the eternal council. The perverse spirit You have cleansed from great transgression, that he might take his stand with the host of the holy ones, and enter together with the congregation of the sons of heaven. And for man, you have allotted an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge..." THANKSGIVING PSALMS - (1QH + 4Q432 Frag. 3 Col. 11:19-23

POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST THREE OF THREE



5) THE PHYSICAL RESURRECTION FOLLOWS THE EXIT FROM HADES

The early apocalypse of Peter offers a detailed summary reference to the dead gathering in Hades / Sheol / spirit world and of Jesus freeing them from Hades as they move to the next stages of Judgment and Resurrection saying "On the day of the decision of the judgment of God, all the children of men from the east unto the west shall be gathered before my Father who ever lives, and he will command Hell to open its bars of steel and to give up all that is in it. And the beasts and the fowls shall he command to give back all flesh that they have devoured, since he desires that men should appear again; for nothing perishes for God, and nothing is impossible with him, since all things are his. For all things come to pass on the day of decision, on the day of judgment, and the word of God, and as all things came to pass when he created the world and commanded that all that is therein, and it was all done --so shall it be in the last days; for everything is possible with God and he says in the Scripture: 'Son of man, prophesy upon the several bones, and say to the bones 'bone unto bone in joints, sinews, nerves, flesh and skin and hair thereon.' And soul and spirit shall the great Uriel give at the command of God. For him God has appointed over the resurrection of the dead on the day of judgment. The apocalypse of Peter

And he answered and said to me: 'Listen Baruch, to this word and write down in the memory of your heart all that you shall learn. For the earth will surely give back the dead at that time; it receives them now in order to keep them, not changing anything in their form. But as it has received them so it will give them back. And as I have delivered them to it so it will raise them. For then it will be necessary to show those who live that the dead are living again, and that those who went away have come back.' The Apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 50:1-4A10

"Then the heavenly one will give souls and breath and voice to the dead and bones fastened with all kinds of joinings....flesh and sinews and veins and skin about the flesh, and the former hairs. Bodies of humans, made solid in heavenly manner, breathing and set in motion, will be raised on a single day. Then Uriel, the great angel, will break the gigantic bolts, of unyielding and unbreakable steel, of the gates of Hades, not forged of metal; he will throw them wide open and will lead all the mournful forms to judgment,.... Christ, imperishable himself, will come in glory on a cloud toward the imperishable one with the blameless angels. He will sit on the right of the Great One, judging at the tribunal the life of pious men and the way of impious men. Moses, the great friend of the Most High, also will come, having put on flesh. Great Abraham himself will come, Isaac and Jacob, Joshua, Daniel and Elijah, Habbakuk and Jonah, and those whom the Hebrews killed.' Sibylline Oracles book two vs 221-230 & 241-248

Alma, in the book of Mormon describes the resurrection similarly : Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, ..." Alma 11:44

In a wonderful summary of the Gospel Plan to tutor the spirits of mankind so as to prepare them learn and master principles of living in a joyful, harmonious heaven, the Dead Sea Scroll textual witness reads :

"For your glorys sake You have cleansed man from transgression, so that he can purify himself for You from all filthy abominations and the guilt of unfaithfulness, so as to be joined wi[th] the children of Your truth; in the lot with Your saints. That bodies, covered with worms of the dead, might rise up from the dust to an eternal council; from a perverse spirit to your understanding. That he might take his position before you with the eternal hosts and spirits of truth to be renewed with all that shall be and to rejoice together with those who know." THANKSGIVING PSALMS - Frags. 10, 34, 42+ 4Q427 Frag. 3 Col. 19:10-14 p 107

Prestor John, while most individuals are unfamiliar with texts of early Judeo-Christianity, the fact that their themes will be very familiar to you and that you could probably use these early textual witnesses in a Sunday school lesson without causing doctrinal ripples, means that your restorational beliefs parallel that of these early Judeo-Christians. It means something profoundly important that the early voices and early witnesses parallel your own views.


Good luck in your spiritual journey.

Clear
ακακτωω

 

[12jtartar]

The next verse 29 of John 5, supports verse 28, that those who are in spiritually in prison in the spiritual grave will be set free from their Spiritual darkness. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"

People are not laying out in some hole in the ground as you think they are.
All thats there is an empty body.
The spirit has returned back to God, that leaves the body with nothing in it, but an empty corps,body.

In Revelation 20:12 and John saw the dead, small and great, This being the spiritual dead, that are to be judge first standing before God, and the books were opened.
The books which are to be open, is the book of Life and the other book, which is the Bible. To be judge by the word of God.

Verse 13--"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it"

Note the sea is a big body of water, right.

So according to Revelation 17:15, water represents peoples, multitudes, and nations and tongues.
So here in Revelation 20:13 we have the sea, which is a big body of water, so that would mean, Nations, which are a big body of people.

So the spiritual dead came out of those Nations. to stand before God to be judge.

Those that are resurrected from the spiritual dead, because they heard the voice of the Son of God and came forth out of their spiritual darkness, into the Spirit of Light of God's truth.

Not all will come out of their spiritual darkness, there are those that will remain in their spiritual darkness.
John 3:19--"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil"

The men loved darkness, are the spiritual dead. In darkness, are these spoken about in Revelation 20:12,13. That came out of the nations of people's, to stand before God to be judge.
Remember that sea, Represents people,nations.
In Revelation 17:15. Seeing the sea is a big body of water, thereby being Nations and people.

Faithofchristian,
There is so much written in these posts, that I cannot a dress every point. Please, listen carefully and allow me to help you understand what God’s purpose is for mankind.
Please consider what I say. There are going to be two resurrections. The Bible speaks of a First Resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. The Bible mentions here that these one of the First Resurrection will be Kings and Priests in The Messianic Kingdom of God, with Jesus being the King and ll the ones that are raised in the First Resurrection will rule with Jesus, in Heaven as immortal Spirits, 1Corinthians 15:50-54, over the ones resurrected back to earth as recreated again as men or women. At John 5:28,29, we are told that some will be resurrected to life and some to a resurrection of Judgement. The Judgement that is mentioned here is not at the time that they are resurrected, but come later, after they show, during the Thousand Year Judgement Day, that they just will not make progress in doing right, then they will be Judged as not worthy of everlasting life, in the Paradise Earth. The Bible tells us a little more about this resurrection, at Acts 24:15, we are told that there is a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. As long as the righteous and the unrighteous continue to obey they will continue to live, but some will keep on being unrighteous and then they will be Judged not worthy.
Please try to understand this, no person who has died and is resurrected will be judged on the things that he did during the life he lived before death. Remember, Jesus died to take away sins, and they, who have died have paid the ultimate price for their sins, at death, Romans 6:23, 6:7. After death a person a person has paid for his sins, so he is free from his sins, but only through the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus, can he be resurrected back to life again, 1Timothy 2:1-6, Matthew 20:28, John 3:16.
Just as in any Kingdom there are rulers and also Subjects. The ones that are resurrected to heavenly life are the rulers. The ones resurrected as flesh and blood back to earth are the subjects of The Messianic Kingdom. Understand, God stated His Purpose for earth, when He created Adam and Eve, Genesis 1:26-28. They were to live forever on earth, multiply and fill the earth, with perfect descendants, and have in subjection all the animals.
Something to remember; when God States a Purpose, it is CERTAIN to come true, and exactly as He Purposed it, Isaiah 45:18,19, 14:26,27, 55:11.
At no time was anything mentioned about anyone going to heaven, Genesis 2:17, 3:19. Only after the fall of Adam and Eve, God, in His Grace, did not want all of Adams descendents to die, with no hope, so Then God made a way for mankind to live again, and if they would obey Go they would receive the same promises that Adam had received, everlasting life on a Paradise Earth, Revelation 21:1-5, Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18.
Agape!!!

 

[Faithofchristian]

Faithofchristian,
There is so much written in these posts, that I cannot a dress every point. Please, listen carefully and allow me to help you understand what God’s purposee
is for mankind.
Please consider what I say. There are going to be two resurrections. The Bible speaks of a First Resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6. The Bible mentions here that these one of the First Resurrection will be Kings and Priests in The Messianic Kingdom of God, with Jesus being the King and ll the ones that are raised in the First Resurrection will rule with Jesus, in Heaven as immortal Spirits, 1Corinthians 15:50-54, over the ones resurrected back to earth as recreated again as men or women. At John 5:28,29, we are told that some will be resurrected to life and some to a resurrection of Judgement. The Judgement that is mentioned here is not at the time that they are resurrected, but come later, after they show, during the Thousand Year Judgement Day, that they just will not make progress in doing right, then they will be Judged as not worthy of everlasting life, in the Paradise Earth. The Bible tells us a little more about this resurrection, at Acts 24:15, we are told that there is a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. As long as the righteous and the unrighteous continue to obey they will continue to live, but some will keep on being unrighteous and then they will be Judged not worthy.
Please try to understand this, no person who has died and is resurrected will be judged on the things that he did during the life he lived before death. Remember, Jesus died to take away sins, and they, who have died have paid the ultimate price for their sins, at death, Romans 6:23, 6:7. After death a person a person has paid for his sins, so he is free from his sins, but only through the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus, can he be resurrected back to life again, 1Timothy 2:1-6, Matthew 20:28, John 3:16.
Just as in any Kingdom there are rulers and also Subjects. The ones that are resurrected to heavenly life are the rulers. The ones resurrected as flesh and blood back to earth are the subjects of The Messianic Kingdom. Understand, God stated His Purpose for earth, when He created Adam and Eve, Genesis 1:26-28. They were to live forever on earth, multiply and fill the earth, with perfect descendants, and have in subjection all the animals.
Something to remember; when God States a Purpose, it is CERTAIN to come true, and exactly as He Purposed it, Isaiah 45:18,19, 14:26,27, 55:11.
At no time was anything mentioned about anyone going to heaven, Genesis 2:17, 3:19. Only after the fall of Adam and Eve, God, in His Grace, did not want all of Adams descendents to die, with no hope, so Then God made a way for mankind to live again, and if they would obey Go they would receive the same promises that Adam had received, everlasting life on a Paradise Earth, Revelation 21:1-5, Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18.
Agape!!!

First, there is no kings, who will reign with Christ.

Revelation 20:6, But they shall be Priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

During the thousand years, they reign with Christ here on earth. When Christ comes, he will establish his kingdom right here on earth.Theres no leaving and coming back.

First, Genesis 1:26-27, is not Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve were not created until the day after the 7th day had pass.

God rested on the 7th day and then on the next day, Then God created Adam and Eve.

The first male and female were created on the 6th day Genesis 1:26,27,31.
and on the next day, 7th day God rested and then on the next day, Adam and Eve were created.
Look you have the 7th day standing in between the two.
Male and female created on the 6th day
And God rested 7th day
And then on the 8th day for say.
God created Adam and Eve.

As we call each day
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,Friday, Saturday, Sunday

Friday 6th day first male and female created.
Saturday 7th day God rested
Sunday Adam and Eve created.

There you have the 7th day standing in between the two.