Square Pegs, Round Holes

[PureX]

I see it as a spectrum.
To be completely without strikes me as a rare extreme,
& not applicable to most with autism or other issues.
But even if one had no empathy whatsoever, what evidence
is that that this inexorably results in narcissism?

The colors red and blue, mixed together, make purple. There can be a lot of red, and a little blue, or a lot of blue and a little red, but the resulting color variations are still some version of purple, because purple is defined as the mixture of red and blue. The amounts do not change the fact that red and blue make purple. And that if we remove the red, or the blue, all together, we will not have any version of purple, anymore.

The more we limit one's ability to experience empathy, the less able one will be to relate with the way other experience 'being here'. And the more confused and isolated one will become as a result. The lack of empathy is still the lack of empathy regardless of the degree to which it lacks, and the result (the inability to relate with others) remains the result regardless of the degree to which it manifests. It is not a "different kind of empathy". The lack remains in effect, regardless of the degree to which it is lacking.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't see people with ADS as "rebels and non-conformists" any more than I see being deaf as an indication of rebellion or non-conformity. These are physical impediments to social interaction, not personality types.

It is not ALL, but your neglecting the fact 'impediments to social interaction' contributes to the nature of personality types.

The bottom line is this research was poorly designed with too many variables, and did not take into account the diversity of belief systems and the variable reasons people make choices. The conclusion that this research had any relevance to the innate belief in God is 'leap in faith.'

 

[Revoltingest]

The colors red and blue, mixed together, make purple. There can be a lot of red, and a little blue, or a lot of blue and a little red, but the resulting color variations are still some version of purple, because purple is defined as the mixture of red and blue. The amounts do not change the fact that red and blue make purple. And that if we remove the red, or the blue, all together, we will not have any version of purple, anymore.

The more we limit one's ability to experience empathy, the less able one will be to relate with the way other experience 'being here'. And the more confused and isolated one will become as a result. The lack of empathy is still the lack of empathy regardless of the degree to which it lacks, and the result (the inability to relate with others) remains the result regardless of the degree to which it manifests. It is not a "different kind of empathy". The lack remains in effect, regardless of the degree to which it is lacking.

And this causes narcissism how?
(No more analogies please.)

 

[PureX]

And this causes narcissism how?
(No more analogies please.)

Narcissism is an excessive preoccupation with self. To the degree that one is being cut off from relations (and occupation) with others by an inability to empathize with them, one is left with only one's self to relate to and to be occupied with: the condition of narcissism.

 

[Maximilian]

Not confused at all. According to your definition cited there are more than one way, in fact several ways, people may be considered spiritual. All that I mentioned and more could qualify as someone being 'spiritual.'

And contemporary research shows that individuals with ASD suffer from cognitive processing styles which hamper human spirituality: Disqus - Square Pegs, Round Holes

Unless, of course, you have concrete evidence to the contrary. Do you?

 

[Revoltingest]

Narcissism is an excessive preoccupation with self. To the degree that one is being cut off from relations (and occupation) with others by an inability to empathize with them, one is left with only one's self to relate to and to be occupied with: the condition of narcissism.

this isolation always leads to preoccupation?

 

[sealchan]

Fascinatingly, while researching the genetic makeup of over a thousand individuals of diverse ages as well as backgrounds scientists have confirmed that we have all inherited a variety of biological predispositions for spirituality. Put simply, we're hardwired for God: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go...

With that being said, individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) are born with neurological deficits such that absolutely no volume of evidence can help these comprehend that which comes so naturally to Neurotypical (NT) individuals, compassion and spirituality.

It's akin to a person born blind attempting to enjoy the majesty of an exquisite painting or one whose never heard sounds their entire life trying to be moved by a sublime aria.


Source: https://www.researchgate.ne...

Accordingly, NTs who love God show these compassion and let them be. After all, it's not their fault.

They may find it a stretch to imagine a personal god but what about an impersonal or amoral creator?

 

[sealchan]

Is Autism Really an "Empathy Disorder"?

Autistic people & empathy: what’s the real story?

I haven't check all the links this one-a friend sent this to me this morning:

Research Project: Empathy in autism - Autism Research Centre

Autistic empathy toward autistic others

Divergent roles of autistic and alexithymic traits in utilitarian moral judgments in adults with autism

I can send more just ask.

Edit:added a link

I have a step-daughter with Aspergers...it seems to me that she has empathy on two levels...a learned behavior that helps her show empathy and a strong empathy that shows itself when events are strongly "conseqential" or triggered by strongly emotionally consequential past experiences.

 

[Maximilian]

They may find it a stretch to imagine a personal god but what about an impersonal or amoral creator?

The research seems to show that whatever conception they arrive at it will be fundamentally ego-centric. This is to say, it's not about surrender to or worship of God but the exaltation of their own views, mindset, opinions, perceptions, attitudes, etc., etc.

 

[sealchan]

The colors red and blue, mixed together, make purple. There can be a lot of red, and a little blue, or a lot of blue and a little red, but the resulting color variations are still some version of purple, because purple is defined as the mixture of red and blue. The amounts do not change the fact that red and blue make purple. And that if we remove the red, or the blue, all together, we will not have any version of purple, anymore.

The more we limit one's ability to experience empathy, the less able one will be to relate with the way other experience 'being here'. And the more confused and isolated one will become as a result. The lack of empathy is still the lack of empathy regardless of the degree to which it lacks, and the result (the inability to relate with others) remains the result regardless of the degree to which it manifests. It is not a "different kind of empathy". The lack remains in effect, regardless of the degree to which it is lacking.

From a Jungian point of view the NT type (Intuitive Thinking types) is a close approximation of having a lack of empathy. The feeling function is the cognitive ability to rationally consider the values held by oneself and others. In strong thinking types, value propositions are devalued in favor of consistency in linguistic definitions.

NTs (and STs) can certainly empathize but it is a very slow process and can require a lot of focus on the NTs part and patience and assistance from others.

 

[sealchan]

The research seems to show that whatever conception they arrive at it will be fundamentally ego-centric. This is to say, it's not about surrender to or worship of God but the exaltation of their own views, mindset, opinions, perceptions, attitudes, etc., etc.

How would you differentiate this from narcissism? Certainly there is a difference.

I think this is where you are over reaching. One only has ones own views, even highly empathetic people. People who are overly empathetic become psychologically ill, in fact. A balance of ones own perspective in the cognitive company of the perspectives of others is the place to find a happy, healthy psyche.

 

[sealchan]

Narcissism is an excessive preoccupation with self. To the degree that one is being cut off from relations (and occupation) with others by an inability to empathize with them, one is left with only one's self to relate to and to be occupied with: the condition of narcissism.

Narcissists know how to manipulate others by playing on their values. Autistics and strong Thinking types tend not to do this so much as such manipulations are skills that are harder to learn.

 

[Revoltingest]

The research seems to show that whatever conception they arrive at it will be fundamentally ego-centric. This is to say, it's not about surrender to or worship of God but the exaltation of their own views, mindset, opinions, perceptions, attitudes, etc., etc.

Why call it "exaltation"?
That suggests to me religious adulation.
But that would be at odds with a non-intuitive
approach to learning about others.

 

[VoidCat]

I have a step-daughter with Aspergers...it seems to me that she has empathy on two levels...a learned behavior that helps her show empathy and a strong empathy that shows itself when events are strongly "conseqential" or triggered by strongly emotionally consequential past experiences.

I'm like that.

 

[Maximilian]

A balance of ones own perspective in the cognitive company of the perspectives of others is the place to find a happy, healthy psyche.

Hence our intrinsic need for guidance. Thankfully, our loving Creator has not left us in the lurch

"Your word is a lamp to my foot,
And a light for my path." -Psalms 119:105

"For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope." -Romans 15:4

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." -2 Timothy 3:16, 17

"So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts." -2 Peter 1:9

 

[james dixon]

Narcissists know how to manipulate others by playing on their values. Autistics and strong Thinking types tend not to do this so much as such manipulations are skills that are harder to learn.

It is time to impeach da racists!!

this is the first time I have witnessed an actual case of naivety in action------

naive (comparative more naive, superlative most naive)
Lacking worldly experience, wisdom, or judgement; unsophisticated; against better judgement.
naive - Wiktionary

The Founding Fathers designed impeachment for someone exactly like Donald Trump
Perspective | The Founding Fathers designed impeachment for someone exactly like Donald Trump

It Is Time To Talk Impeaching Trump

1. to accuse (a public official) before an appropriate tribunal of misconduct in office.

Pathological lying is a form of “misconduct in office” making it an impeachable offence

Dump is a pathological liar and that is NOT what we want as our President.
We, the citizens of this great Nation must act NOW
What say you, fellow Americans-?

Pathological lying (also called pseudologia fantastica and mythomania) is a behavior of habitual or compulsive lying.[1][2] It was first described in the medical literature in 1891 by Anton Delbrueck.[2] Although it is a controversial topic,[2] pathological lying has been defined as "falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime".[1] Individuals may be aware they are lying, or may believe they are telling the truth

Psychotherapy appears to be one of the only methods to treat a person suffering from pathological lying. No research has been performed regarding the use of pharmaceutical medication to treat pathological liars
.............................................

Someone suffering from this extreme egocentric focus is an egomaniac. The condition is psychologically abnormal. The term egomania is often used by laypersons in a pejorative fashion to describe an individual who is intolerably self-centred.
https://tinyurl.com/yceaul3d

Impeachment is the process by which a legislative body formally levels charges against a high official of government. Impeachment does not necessarily mean removal from office; it is only a formal statement of charges, akin to an indictment in criminal law, and is thus only the first step towards removal. Once an individual is impeached, he or she must then face the possibility of conviction via legislative vote, which then entails the removal of the individual from office.

Presidential Impeachment Process
Presidential Impeachment is a two stage Constitutional process. The full power of Impeachment and the removal of a sitting President resides within Congress. The actual impeachment of a President is the sole power of the House of Representatives. Once a President is impeached, the power of removing the President shifts to the U.S. Senate.

The House of Representatives starts the impeachment process by publicly investigating the charges and holding hearings. If the House of Representatives votes against impeachment the process is over and the President is not Impeached.

If the House of Representatives votes for Impeachment of the President, the process moves forward with the drawing up of the Articles of Impeachment (The official criminal charges for removal from office). The President has now been officially impeached per the United States Constitution. Once the Impeachment process is final, trials are then held in the U.S. Senate to convict or acquit the President of the Articles of Impeachment drawn against him.

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

The President, the Vice President, and other officers of the United States, can be kicked out of office (impeached) if they are found guilty of double-crossing (betraying) the country, offering people money or getting money to do something dishonest, or other really big crimes.

The 25th Amendment is the ultimate constitutional "check" — a corrective mechanism for an American president who is physically or psychologically unable to lead. Most important, it grants legal authority to those closest to power — first, the vice president and Cabinet members, then members of Congress — to stage an intervention. At the very least, these individuals are authorized to call a temporary timeout if the president is judged unfit to govern.

*****NOTE: As of November 19, 2017 Articles of Impeachment have been drawn up against Trump

Trump could also be charged with obstruction of justice

b.t.w. 30 days in jail would bring him back down to earth as well. He needs to spent this time in the Guantanamo Bay detention camp

It Is Time To Talk Impeachment

No wait, not 30 but 90 days

Do you agree--?

 

[VoidCat]

The research seems to show that whatever conception they arrive at it will be fundamentally ego-centric. This is to say, it's not about surrender to or worship of God but the exaltation of their own views, mindset, opinions, perceptions, attitudes, etc., etc.

Ego-centric does not equal selfish...All kids under a certain age are ego-centric yet I've seen 2 and 3 year olds try to cheer each other up.

 

[VoidCat]

I don't see people with ADS as "rebels and non-conformists" any more than I see being deaf as an indication of rebellion or non-conformity. These are physical impediments to social interaction, not personality types.

Truth!Preach it.

 

[sealchan]

Ego-centric does not equal selfish...All kids under a certain age are ego-centric yet I've seen 2 and 3 year olds try to cheer each other up.

Strong Thinking types are often "selfless" or self-effacing given their slavish devotion to a Spock-like focus on the facts. Their "lack of empathy" or the perception thereof is driven by a desire not to let mere want get in the way of logical use of language. Sometimes that is perceived as ego-centric because it is so cold.

But for strong Thinking types it is equally cold inside as out and the ego suffers greatly. This is, perhaps, why I suspect Zen Buddhism is the great antithesis 5o Christianity which tends toward anti-mysticism. No self realized through practicing zazen...not your typical Christian form of worship.

I've thought about these things since I read Donna William's first book about her autism and I realized how much I appreciated her descriptions of her inner experience. Strong Thinking types are, perhaps, "on the spectrum" with those diagnosed with Autism.

In nature all things it seems are woven in a balance of opposites. Those that are too strong break and those that are weak, persevere where the strong do not. So if we look at those who are the opposite of people known for their empathy and compassion they tend to get tied up in various knots that the less empathic can untie with logic.

The reverse is true where Thinking types get lost in technical details which can be utterly dissolved by the realization that such details are often unimportant (they have no practical or moral value) except to those wanting to program a computer.

 

[james dixon]

Strong Thinking types are often "selfless" or self-effacing given their slavish devotion to a Spock-like focus on the facts

Pathological lying is a behavior of habitual or compulsive lying.[1][2] It was first described in the medical literature in 1891 by Anton Delbrueck.[2]Although it is a controversial topic,[2] pathological lying has been defined as "falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime".[1]

The most important thing you do not want the President of the USA to be is a Pathological liar

Which is just what Trump is !!!

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