Spreading Sharia, e.g. the Suit against Amazon

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

I herd they allowed to have beards for Hindu men in the US army. Is it a mistake?

Hindu =/= sikh

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it so.

I agree. And a request for accommodation does not equal Sharia Law.

 

[paarsurrey]

It's about making sure that religious people can't force others to do stuff they don't want to do. If I run a company and I'm an atheist, I don't want to be forced to let my employees spend time on the job praying. They are free to do their praying when they're not at work.

But they want to pray during the legit recess time, for it they need Just a clean corner/place to do it. Is it bad to have some tolerance for multicultural society that the world happens to be? Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

@hadrianus
What "funny" did one find in my post # #43 please?
Regards
_________
One many like to read my post # #63 in the this thread.

 

[paarsurrey]

As far as I know, most pray during break time. I would see nothing wrong with them taking brakes at certain times (of course if the position/job permits), but I would not allow them any extra time because of their religion that others do not get.

Fair enough.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Inaccurate and inflammatory title aside, obviously Amazon didn't think this was an unreasonable request, they just worked out details of space issues. This really isn't unusual with contract work where independent contractors set their own or negotiate for their own hours and breaks. If the break happens to be used for prayer, who cares? My clinic certainly wouldn't care if someone in our very diverse group of faiths prayed quietly in an unused room.
Being needlessly antireligious is not secularism.

Signed
a long time independent contractor

One is an open mind. I appreciate it. Please
Regards

 

[Sakeenah]

I don't see how a person praying quietly for 5 min once or twice a day is an issue.
The prayers don't take longer than 5 minutes, 3 or 4 prayers are mostly outside of work hours. It's the noon prayer that most muslims pray at work and the majority of muslims that I know pray it during their break.
I've always prayed it during my school/work break time, the noon prayer can be delayed for 1 to 2 hours. We don't need a special room a quiet corner,an empty office or classroom is enough.

 

[paarsurrey]

Wrong on two counts:
1 - I raised a concern about BOTH Islamic and Christian actions to use the cloak of "religious freedom" to attempt to erode secularism.
2 - Yellow Peril was a racist idea. My criticism concerns religions not races. You should know the difference and not conflate the two.

To put it correctly, doesn't one's view smell of extremism surfacing in Atheism hiding behind the name of Secularism? Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I have experience with a Muslim co-worker first hand. At three o'clock each day he would stop work to go and pray in the first aid room. Usually this took no more than a few minutes and since knock-off was at half-past anyway the actual inconvenience to us was less than minimal. There is no basis in secularism to object to such observance.

My point is that as hard as it may be for you understand, religion is important to the lives of many people. You don't put religion aside just because you've step foot in a workplace. It may not be a 'need' that a Sikh wear a turban, but what good reason is there to object? Similarly it is not 'secularism' to insist that a Muslim can't take mere minutes each day to pray at three o'clock. All you achieve by doing so is to alienate people.

Now what is reasonable is a case by case basis. But I just don't see how taking five minutes each day for a religious obligation is at all unreasonable.The real objection seems to be nothing more than ideologically driven anti-religion.

"The real objection seems to be nothing more than ideologically driven anti-religion."

I appreciate one's approach. Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

And yet, a lawsuit is in progress.

What is bad about struggling for the right one thinks is right? Court would decide fairly after hearing point of view of both the parties. Right? Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

My point isn't about this case specifically. I take issue with your frankly ludicrous assertion that reasonable accommodations for religious observance is an undermining of secularism.

I agree with one. Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I take issue with constant pressure from some religious groups, chiefly Christian and Islamic, to use "religious freedom" as a cover to move religious agendas into the commons, and yes, encroach on the separation of church and state. Each group is biting the hand that protects it, i.e. secularism.

I don't think any religious agenda/conspiracy is there in the issue, unless one makes an issue out of a non-issue. Right? Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Wrong on two counts:

1 - I raised a concern about BOTH Islamic and Christian actions to use the cloak of "religious freedom" to attempt to erode secularism.
2 - Yellow Peril was a racist idea. My criticism concerns religions not races. You should know the difference and not conflate the two.

There is nothing in the word "secular", originally, hinting anything one wants to see in it.
Regards
______________

secular (adj.)
c. 1300, "living in the world, not belonging to a religious order," also "belonging to the state," from Old French seculer (Modern French séculier), from Late Latin saecularis "worldly, secular, pertaining to a generation or age," from Latin saecularis "of an age, occurring once in an age," from saeculum "age, span of time, lifetime, generation, breed."

This is from Proto-Italic *sai-tlo-, which, according to Watkins, is PIE instrumental element *-tlo- + *sai- "to bind, tie" (see sinew), extended metaphorically to successive human generations as links in the chain of life. De Vaan lists as a cognate Welsh hoedl "lifespan, age." An older theory connected it to words for "seed," from PIE root *se- "to sow" (see sow (v.), and compare Gothic mana-seþs "mankind, world," literally "seed of men").

Used in ecclesiastical writing like Greek aion "of this world" (see cosmos). It is source of French siècle. Ancient Roman ludi saeculares was a three-day, day-and-night celebration coming once in an "age" (120 years). In English, in reference to humanism and the exclusion of belief in God from matters of ethics and morality, from 1850s.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't see any serious chance of that in any western society. Yes there are extreme elements within certain religious groups who do pose a growing problem for society but that's a different issue. I'm as against the notion of a Sharia court as you undoubtedly would be.

But it seems to me that there is a growing notion of secularism among people such as yourself which goes further than simple state neutrality. You want the state to proactively protect you from having to deal with the religious beliefs of others. Sorry, but you don't go to an Indian restaurant and demand beef in your curry, a Christian church and demand a gay wedding service, or baselessly insist that it's unreasonable to permit a Muslim employee a few minutes each day to pray at three o'clock. That's not secularism, that's using the state as an instrument of ideological bullying.

"that's using the state as an instrument of ideological bullying."
Sure, enough in my opinion also.
Regards

 

[columbus]

I don't see how a person praying quietly for 5 min once or twice a day is an issue.

I agree. In fact, I see no reason for an employer to even know about it. Much less do I think that the employees filing a lawsuit and making demands for accommodation are especially reasonable.

If they can find a mutually satisfactory compromise that's great. If not, then trying to force their religious wishes with a lawsuit hardly qualifies as tolerance either.
Tom

 

[paarsurrey]

@Notanumber

What "funny" did one find in my post # #43 please?
Regards

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But they want to pray during the legit recess time, for it they need Just a clean corner/place to do it. Is it bad to have some tolerance for multicultural society that the world happens to be? Please
Regards

At the university I attend/work at, the Muslim students here either use an empty study room, or I have just seen them use a quiet hallway. Sure, there were the ones who took a job delivering beer and then upset because it is against their religion, which is clearly a case in which they should not have taken the job in the first case, but to me it seems like these "special snowflake" Muslims are more-or-less like "special snowflake" Liberals and you probably won't see them in real life but you'll hear all about them on the internet. Out of people like that in general, I've only met a few. And regardless of what labels they apply to themselves, I think we can all agree they are some rather annoying people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This really isn't unusual with contract work where independent contractors set their own or negotiate for their own hours and breaks.

Reminds me when I was a supervisor at an inventory company, and we were technically contracted workers. Even for an outside company to inventory a small store requires a lengthy list of things to address, work out, and reach agreements on before the inventory starts (training for these was very selective, and for high profile clients you had to be a familiar face to store management and be familiar with inventory procedures for that store before you'd even considered for these meetings). And then it turns out a bunch of stuff comes up on inventory day and you have to go work to address those issues. And if your people and their people get into any sort of altercation, it can be a headache.
Any reason I called the OP article crap, really, because third party company/main company relations in such a way are not normal employee/employer relationships. They can be complicated, contradicting, and different rules for different people. That article seems to want to say it's all on Amazon, even though providing dedicated prayer rooms is far more than what most companies would do.

 

[columbus]

Sure, there were the ones who took a job delivering beer and then upset because it is against their religion, which is clearly a case in which they should not have taken the job in the first case, but to me it seems like these "special snowflake" Muslims are more-or-less like "special snowflake" Liberals

It seems like the problems are usually caused by people who take a job, then convert. Then they feel that their new religious beliefs create an obligation on the part of other people.
Just an observation. It doesn't seem to be religious people in general, but usually noobs with something to prove. Like how devout they are.
Tom

 

[leibowde84]

I have experience with a Muslim co-worker first hand. At three o'clock each day he would stop work to go and pray in the first aid room. Usually this took no more than a few minutes and since knock-off was at half-past anyway the actual inconvenience to us was less than minimal. There is no basis in secularism to object to such observance.

My point is that as hard as it may be for you understand, religion is important to the lives of many people. You don't put religion aside just because you've step foot in a workplace. It may not be a 'need' that a Sikh wear a turban, but what good reason is there to object? Similarly it is not 'secularism' to insist that a Muslim can't take mere minutes each day to pray at three o'clock. All you achieve by doing so is to alienate people.

Now what is reasonable is a case by case basis. But I just don't see how taking five minutes each day for a religious obligation is at all unreasonable.The real objection seems to be nothing more than ideologically driven anti-religion.

I never said it wasn't reasonable. If it isn't a problem, they should be able to do whatever they want in observing their religion. All I am saying is that special treatment isn't necessary.