Spiritual Alchemy vs the Hero's Journey?

[Rosanna]

Hi

I've no idea whether this is the right place to post this, but I went to a study group recently on Harry Potter (the books by JK Rowling). I'm not a fan and haven't read the books, but a friend dragged me along.

In the group it was discussed about the theory that Harry was following an alchemical journey. Then someone mentioned the Hero's Journey. I'm reading up on it all, or trying to, and to me there's not much difference between the two?

To be honest it's all a bit over my head, especially looking at where the hero's journey comes from and then looking at Joseph Campbell and how he was influenced by Carl Jung, and I don't fully understand Carl Jung (as yet).....and then Carl Jung talks a lot about alchemy but I'm not sure what exactly, lol.

One bit that's bothering me which may be relevant here is that in Harry Potter, there is constant evil trying to harm him, I don't see how that plot fits an alchemical structure. The stages of alchemy that I've read about don't talk about some sort of evil or negative quality that has to be eradicated, that's external from self, only more 'leaden' aspects of self.

I've really value your views.. Thanks

 

[Mister Silver]

My opinion is that people need to find more productive things to do with their time than discussing fiction to that kind of depth. Book clubs are fine, so long as there's a relevant discussion on a new book/author during each meeting, but simply to sit there and discuss Harry Potter as though it is a veritable religion seems insane to me.

However, to stay on topic with the original post, Harry Potter is most certainly a Hero's Journey.

 

[Rosanna]

Mister Silver, I would agree with you usually, the impression I might have given of being someone with lots of time on my hands to go along to these things is not really accurate (but my fault), I'm actually curious about this because I'm an artist, self employed, I support myself and I'm following a thread of curiosity. I know 'artist' sounds indulgent but actually most of my time is taken up doing portraits of people, pets and children, for other people, this is something I've allowed myself one afternoon a week (and I work usually the rest of the 7 days)

 

[EtuMalku]

My opinion is that people need to find more productive things to do with their time than discussing fiction to that kind of depth. Book clubs are fine, so long as there's a relevant discussion on a new book/author during each meeting, but simply to sit there and discuss Harry Potter as though it is a veritable religion seems insane to me.

However, to stay on topic with the original post, Harry Potter is most certainly a Hero's Journey.

You're on a Forum dedicated to Fiction ala Religion . . . there is no difference between Harry Potter and Religion.

 

[Sunstone]

My opinion is that people need to find more productive things to do with their time than discussing fiction to that kind of depth. Book clubs are fine, so long as there's a relevant discussion on a new book/author during each meeting, but simply to sit there and discuss Harry Potter as though it is a veritable religion seems insane to me.

Gods! Are you shooting for RF's Ironic Post of the Decade Award, Silver? It's been years since I've witnessed a less self-aware post than yours. Dude, you are hanging out on RF, criticizing someone -- someone who is merely trying to make greater sense of her world -- as "engaged in a non-productive activity". Do you have the wit to see how ironic that is? And on more than one level?

 

[Mister Silver]

You're on a Forum dedicated to Fiction ala Religion . . . there is no difference between Harry Potter and Religion.

The difference being that Harry Potter fans know the books are fictional whereas religious people refuse to understand their religions are fictional.

 

[sun rise]

Hi

I've no idea whether this is the right place to post this, but I went to a study group recently on Harry Potter (the books by JK Rowling). I'm not a fan and haven't read the books, but a friend dragged me along.

In the group it was discussed about the theory that Harry was following an alchemical journey. Then someone mentioned the Hero's Journey. I'm reading up on it all, or trying to, and to me there's not much difference between the two?

To be honest it's all a bit over my head, especially looking at where the hero's journey comes from and then looking at Joseph Campbell and how he was influenced by Carl Jung, and I don't fully understand Carl Jung (as yet).....and then Carl Jung talks a lot about alchemy but I'm not sure what exactly, lol.

One bit that's bothering me which may be relevant here is that in Harry Potter, there is constant evil trying to harm him, I don't see how that plot fits an alchemical structure. The stages of alchemy that I've read about don't talk about some sort of evil or negative quality that has to be eradicated, that's external from self, only more 'leaden' aspects of self.

I've really value your views.. Thanks

I think this is a very interesting question. I'm glad you asked it because it interested me as well!

I certainly understand how Harry Potter is following a classic hero's journey. If you search for Harry Potter hero's journey you'll find a lot of web sites that talk to this idea.

I'm not sure about the alchemical journey idea. He's certainly not transformed through the books outside of growing up and becoming a man. So I'd have to hear some ideas about this to overcome my skepticism.

(And I see you're new so welcome to RF.)

 

[sun rise]

The difference being that Harry Potter fans know the books are fictional whereas religious people refuse to understand their religions are fictional.

Oh good grief. Not every thread has to be turned into a God is real/God is fiction back-and-forth. @Rosanna asked an interesting question but your answer leads me to wish that we had a rule against hijacking threads.

 

[Mister Silver]

Oh good grief. Not every thread has to be turned into a God is real/God is fiction back-and-forth. @Rosanna asked an interesting question but your answer leads me to wish that we had a rule against hijacking threads.

I was simply responding to him since he quoted me.

 

[EtuMalku]

Hi

I've no idea whether this is the right place to post this, but I went to a study group recently on Harry Potter (the books by JK Rowling). I'm not a fan and haven't read the books, but a friend dragged me along.

In the group it was discussed about the theory that Harry was following an alchemical journey. Then someone mentioned the Hero's Journey. I'm reading up on it all, or trying to, and to me there's not much difference between the two?

To be honest it's all a bit over my head, especially looking at where the hero's journey comes from and then looking at Joseph Campbell and how he was influenced by Carl Jung, and I don't fully understand Carl Jung (as yet).....and then Carl Jung talks a lot about alchemy but I'm not sure what exactly, lol.

One bit that's bothering me which may be relevant here is that in Harry Potter, there is constant evil trying to harm him, I don't see how that plot fits an alchemical structure. The stages of alchemy that I've read about don't talk about some sort of evil or negative quality that has to be eradicated, that's external from self, only more 'leaden' aspects of self.

I've really value your views.. Thanks

Alchemy & the Hero's Journey go hand in hand. They both represent the act of Individuation, which in turn is a foundation of many occult paths. The Evil in the Potter mythology represents, as do most Evils in films and stories, our Shadow self, that which we repress until it festers and devours us. Both Alchemy and Jungian Individuation is about entering the Underworld (the unconscious mind) locating some magical weapon, facing this Shadow / Demon, and overcoming it. Once the demon is killed you are rewarded with something and then return to the mundane world where this 'Gift' can be shared to the benefit of others.

In Alchemy the process is true Individuation in that one reduces their self to one's most base structure through facing all the repressed fears and oppressions / inhibitions, then the self is built back up with beneficial structures much like the Phoenix rising from its ashes.

 

[Sunstone]

One bit that's bothering me which may be relevant here is that in Harry Potter, there is constant evil trying to harm him, I don't see how that plot fits an alchemical structure. The stages of alchemy that I've read about don't talk about some sort of evil or negative quality that has to be eradicated, that's external from self, only more 'leaden' aspects of self.

Hi Rosanna! Welcome to RF! What fascinating questions you have! And also observations! I think you might be onto something there with your observation of the difference between an alchemical story and a Hero Journey. Unfortunately, while I once took a seminar on Campbell's Hero Journey, I slept through most of the parts on alchemy -- and I've never read Harry Potter. So sorry. But keep up the good work!

By the way, my father was a portrait artist (charcoal and oils, mainly), and -- as of six years ago -- I dabble in acrylic portrait painting myself (although I'm not even close to him in skill, etc). Care to upload any examples of your work?

 

[Sanzbir]

You're on a Forum dedicated to Fiction ala Religion . . . there is no difference between Harry Potter and Religion.

Wow, super edgy brah.

 

[Mister Silver]

I do have major respect for Joseph Campbell. I have read his "The Power of Myth" work. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Rosanna]

Wow, can't keep up with the replies, I will read properly soon, but just to say a quick thanks. Sunrise, I've read your first response properly....what would you say is a more alchemical transformation then, in a person? If Harry's is more about growing up and becoming a man? What would it take for it to be alchemical? Because I guess I was thinking that it's how the personality develops that determines whether it's alchemical or not, ie whether it stays like lead or becomes 'golden' - I'm using very simplistic language at the moment as it's late, lol, but what I mean is some personalities stay very limited despite reaching maturity, others are incredibly refined, skilled, etc.

Anyway, thanks so much for your reply, really appreciated.....and I'm going to get back to everyone else

 

[Sanzbir]

I don't think the equivocation works. It almost does, I think one could argue that it even tries, but I think it falls short.

An spiritual alchemy tale would have a central theme of overcoming evil, as Harry Potter does, but that evil would be more internal rather than external.

Now there is somewhat of an alchemical tale there. Part of Voldemort's soul is bound to Harry himself, and that part manifests as Harry's own darker powers (his ability to speak with snakes, the Sorting Hat wanting him to be a Slytherin, etc.)

So one could argue it works, Harry, by confronting Voldemort, is also confronting the evil inside of him, as stereotypical of a cliche-Nazi brand of evil as it may be.

But, eh. The fact that the dark side of Harry is literally because of the soul of Magic Hitler kind of makes the analogy not work in my opinion. At the end of the day, the protagonist isn't confronting his own, inherent evil and overcoming it, he's fighting an external evil that was forced upon him.

The revelation that Harry's dark side wasn't his own, but was just a shard of Voldemort's soul, kind of ruined any alchemical metaphor it could have.

And any book that wants to give a metaphor on Alchemy of all subjects probably shouldn't end its first book with the moral that immortality is overrated and that the creator of the Philosopher's Stone should give up his life. I mean immortality is a central theme of alchemy, the creation of a Philosopher's Stone (metaphorically at least) is the goal.

So it's odd that the immortal of the first book would decide immortality is bad and give it up, off screen. It just seems rather... anti-alchemy, to me.

 

[Rosanna]

In Alchemy the process is true Individuation in that one reduces their self to one's most base structure through facing all the repressed fears and oppressions / inhibitions, then the self is built back up with beneficial structures much like the Phoenix rising from its ashes.

Thanks EtuMalku

Where is the evil in that though according to the alchemical theory? I see that with the hero's journey it's the shadow side - I probably see it there because I know that Joseph Campbell was influenced by Jung - and I can see that in the Harry Potter story, Voldemort was possible Harry's shadow side......(although I then get confused because V killed Harry's parents....).....but anyway....

in Alchemy, where would the evil be? Where does one face the shadow in the process / stages? Is it in the nigredo part where one faces all the repressed fears etc, that you mentioned? Thanks

 

[EtuMalku]

Thanks EtuMalku

Where is the evil in that though according to the alchemical theory? I see that with the hero's journey it's the shadow side - I probably see it there because I know that Joseph Campbell was influenced by Jung - and I can see that in the Harry Potter story, Voldemort was possible Harry's shadow side......(although I then get confused because V killed Harry's parents....).....but anyway....

in Alchemy, where would the evil be? Where does one face the shadow in the process / stages? Is it in the nigredo part where one faces all the repressed fears etc, that you mentioned? Thanks

The evil is YOU, the parts of yourself that are repressed and manifesting into monsters/

 

[Rosanna]

the page keeps refreshing and freezing for some reason, so I'm reading but may have to come back tomorrow to reply, depending on whether it calms down!

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[Kemosloby]

My theory is that we all know there is an "evil" and we would not buy the Harry Potter story without evil, therefore we should not believe in "sacred alchemy" or whatever it's called.

 

[Politesse]

The Harry-as-alchemical-synthesis idea was put forth by John Granger in several books; one of which I read, and I must admit he has a bit of a point. I think Rowling at least intended to imply an alchemical connection with Albus (albedo), Rubeus (rubedo), and Black (negrido) playing their respective parts, and hints that the the magical world needed to synthesize its seeming opposites. The series even starts with a Philosopher's stone, and hints that Harry possesses the "secret" to it in the mirror of desires.

And other things. The warring houses, the magical brethren, etc, the book keeps foreshadowing that they must come together somehow and find a synthesis. But I think Rowling herself is too much of a pessimist to actually end the book on that happy of an ending. Harry Potter is post-modernist alchemy, and the magnum opus is only achieved in fleeting, fragmentary ways. Harry is at turns saved by each of the magical brethren and members of the four houses, for instance; he unites the deathly hallows, but then breaks them for fear of loss or abuse just as Flamel does with the Stone at the beginning. The Wizarding World is "saved", but you'd have to be naive to imagine that Voldemort is the last we'll see of magical fascism. It's too broken a world for alchemy to actually succeed. So Harry acts as a partial stone, but the quintessence is never reached.

Not unlike alchemy in the real world, in fact.