Spirit or Superstition?

[Bethsheba Ashe]

You are saying "Because the Bible shows IMMENSE design from a higher intelligence, it must be lying when it names real people, real places and false supernatural events."

I never said that. Please consult the straw man you invented. Also QED:

"Donald Trump went to Syria one morning. He dug a large hole in the ground and stepped into it and they covered him over with straw and pitch. He stayed there for 40 days and 40 nights and after that Netanyahu helped him out and they both converted to Islam."

Real people. Real places. But the story is completely false, as it would be if I was trying to make a mathematical sum with gematria and I thought it would be fun and impressive to my fellow scribes if I made a story say that.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

I like the Baha’i religion. I find the emphasis on the unity of science and religion to be refreshing and ahead of its time, and I think that eventually if we turn back from the destruction of the planet, the bird that is humanity will fly with both wings (of science and religion). But right now, superstition has its grip around many human hearts, and people are choosing to escape into fantasy and delusion right at the moment that we need them to step up to the bar and take action on climate change. I’m pleased that members of the Baha’i religion won’t be wrestling with cognitive dissonance as a consequence of my book.

I hope to help lessen superstitious attitudes, but I think many adults who take the bible literally are beyond my help. They are using the Bible and also political myth making as an egoic defense, and so take any evidence contrary to their beliefs as a personal attack which they feel entitled to respond to with a counter-attack. In the USA there are many people who have not developed a true personality, but rely on multiple psychic functions which only work when they are stimulated from outside, otherwise they feel empty.

By clinging to the Jesus figure they give themselves a platform to attack the unbeliever and thus receive emotional energy from the person so attacked. They become addicted to emotional energy even while being uninterested in the source of that energy. Because people with similar psychological dysfunctions band together in an attempt to find strength in numbers (and also to hide) there is often not even the pretense of rationality behind their discourse, and where there is no rationality there can be no real morality either.

They imagine themselves to be the superheros they love to watch on TV. They imagine they are “the chosen ones of God”. They feel entitled to attention and empty without it. The ego is framed as the ‘ubermensch’ in their story and once more and they feel empowered to act beyond any consideration of good or evil. They have the president of America providing them narcissistic supply and the more he provokes emotional responses, the more they appreciate him for it. They don’t give a rat’s *** how immoral he is. He could start throwing Mexicans in the ovens tomorrow and his base would cheer and say “that served them damn spics right”, because that gets them even more attention. These people will not learn anything from my book, because they have already made ignorance holy. However, their children are a different matter. It is not too late for the children.

 

[viole]

In my new book [The Genesis Wheel ~ out 1st August] I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down. I write:

"From the burning bush to the ascent of Elijah to heaven, all the really odd and supernatural narratives of the Bible that I have investigated have gematria behind them, and are explained by scribal motivation to compose a mathematical sum. While this may be upsetting to some people, I don’t think this is something that should cause anyone to lose their faith in the spirit of God ... There is a great difference between holding a belief in the Spirit, and in rank superstition. Why should a true personal relationship with the original divinity be predicated on cheap supernatural favor seeking rituals?"

I think after reading my book, many people will be persuaded that the miracles and strange tales of the Bible were not intended to be read as factual accounts. It is not my intention to impact upon anyone's belief in God however. My question is:

Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you?

I look forward to your considered replies.

Independently on how compelling your arguments are, I strongly doubt that people, who do not already agree, will be convinced.

The problem is that if X believes the Universe is 6000 years old, then X is immune, by definition, to any rational argument you might come out with.

That would be like trying to convince people, by means of rational arguments, that the distance between NY and LA is not just a few yards. If they believe such today, that entails that they are already totally immune to any sort of rational argument.

Good luck, anyway.

Ciao

- viole

 

[sojourner]

David, if I write:

2 + 19 - 300 + 295 =

then by mathematical convention the answer is 16. We cannot see what we want with the text and still get the right answer. Biblical gematria has similar mathematical and logical conventions.

Nice Lizard/Leaf though.

And yet an eminent NT scholar says that the bible hasn't lasted because it is true; it has lasted because it is multivalent.

 

[sojourner]

I've often wondered since the bible is the reason people believe in a creator god, if the bible didn't exist would people still believe in a creator god or a completely different god all together.

The bible isn't the reason people believe in a creator God. Religious tradition is the reason people believe in a creator God.

 

[We Never Know]

The bible isn't the reason people believe in a creator God. Religious tradition is the reason people believe in a creator God.

The bible is the most selling book in history. The creator god and his claimed son jesus are what are the bible promotes and the bible is the reason most christians and other religions believe in them.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

Independently on how compelling your arguments are, I strongly doubt that people, who do not already agree, will be convinced.

The problem is that if X believes the Universe is 6000 years old, then X is immune, by definition, to any rational argument you might come out with.

That would be like trying to convince people, by means of rational arguments, that the distance between NY and LA is not just a few yards. If they believe such today, that entails that they are already totally immune to any sort of rational argument.

Good luck, anyway.

Ciao

- viole

Yes, I agree that its not a book for people who are immune to rational argument. However, I hope to reach people who have investigated gematria previously and been disappointed. The vast majority of people currently using gematria with the Bible today are using the wrong values for the letters, and without any knowledge of the scribal conventions, which is why the subject does not currently have a good reputation. I would like to change that.

Thank you very much.

 

[sealchan]

In my new book [The Genesis Wheel ~ out 1st August] I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down. I write:

"From the burning bush to the ascent of Elijah to heaven, all the really odd and supernatural narratives of the Bible that I have investigated have gematria behind them, and are explained by scribal motivation to compose a mathematical sum. While this may be upsetting to some people, I don’t think this is something that should cause anyone to lose their faith in the spirit of God ... There is a great difference between holding a belief in the Spirit, and in rank superstition. Why should a true personal relationship with the original divinity be predicated on cheap supernatural favor seeking rituals?"

I think after reading my book, many people will be persuaded that the miracles and strange tales of the Bible were not intended to be read as factual accounts. It is not my intention to impact upon anyone's belief in God however. My question is:

Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you?

I look forward to your considered replies.

I believe that as a Christian my faith should be based on an experience of which the Bible also speaks and I would say that the Bible should help us by pointing out that experience in our own lives. That IMO is far more important than historical accuracy. I hope to promote a Christianity that can easily survive a transcendence of a literal historical interpretation.

 

[sealchan]

Given that some even to this day I am skeptical of, like a literal talking donkey, I might be fine.

Can I call you Shrek?

 

[sojourner]

In my new book [The Genesis Wheel ~ out 1st August] I argue that many of the so-called miracles and supernatural happenings in the Bible are not true accounts, but are there because of underlying gematria calculations the scribes were setting down. I write:

"From the burning bush to the ascent of Elijah to heaven, all the really odd and supernatural narratives of the Bible that I have investigated have gematria behind them, and are explained by scribal motivation to compose a mathematical sum. While this may be upsetting to some people, I don’t think this is something that should cause anyone to lose their faith in the spirit of God ... There is a great difference between holding a belief in the Spirit, and in rank superstition. Why should a true personal relationship with the original divinity be predicated on cheap supernatural favor seeking rituals?"

I think after reading my book, many people will be persuaded that the miracles and strange tales of the Bible were not intended to be read as factual accounts. It is not my intention to impact upon anyone's belief in God however. My question is:

Could you retain your faith and belief in God without believing in the strange and miraculous accounts in the Bible? Is a belief in 'the spirit' of God behind everything enough for you?

I look forward to your considered replies.

I'm aware of the Kabbalistic gematria theories, and while that's certainly one time-honored way to interpret these texts, I'm not convinced the epistemology holds up. I suppose the overriding reason is because of the nature of the texts, themselves. These ancient texts were orally transmitted long before they were written down. Many were lifted, either in part or in whole, from earlier stories from different and foreign cultures. Then there was the intense redaction that took place. Added to that the differences created when the Masoretes introduced the point system. It's not as if one person wrote the texts; they're amazingly conglomerate in their creation. It would seem that the gematria theories would only hold up if the texts were "intended" to be written the way they were. I'm not at all convinced that's the case.

While these theories can create some compelling treatments of the texts, I'm not convinced that there's an underlying, secret message that was at all the intent of the writers. At least not one that could be considered a valid exegesis of the texts. And I'm not at all convinced that such a treatment should be considered as the raison d'etre for the text's creation. I do think that such interpretations can introduce color and dimension to our understanding of the texts.

The accepted explanation, of course, is that the texts are mythic, and miracles always serve to create characters that are larger than life, in order to illustrate the moral or ethical points the characters are employed to make.

I don't see why there's any reason the miracles can't be taken as non-literal, and not upset one's faith. It certainly hasn't upset mine. But then, my faith isn't founded on the texts.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

And yet an eminent NT scholar says that the bible hasn't lasted because it is true; it has lasted because it is multivalent.

He's probably right, but I know when I was a child I was intrigued by questions like:

How did the burning bush catch on fire?
Why did Moses's face start shining when he came down the mountain?
How did Noah fit all the animals in his ark?
etc.

Now I know there's an answer to these questions, I'd like to share it, and I hope the Bible remains popular for many centuries to come.

 

[sojourner]

I suppose that David would say it was because of subconscious archetypes, but personally I think everyone has a type of transcendental consciousness that dimly remembers its origin as a singular consciousness around the earth before there was life here and bodies to incarnate into. Science is actually catching up with religion on that score. The big Wow theory posits a moment of consciousness at the beginning of the Big Bang, and theoretically that would extend to there being a singular consciousness associated with the early earth itself if the physics is correct > energy to matter = consciousness*.
---------------------

* Because the pre-material qualia of matter is complex and has structure.

My Shamanic teacher refers to that as "ancestral memory" -- the stuff we carry from previous lifetimes into our own particular existence. That's an increasingly valid explanation for archetypes; the stuff that comes out of the primordial soup. From science's ability to get us back to a couple of seconds before the Big Bang, we know that all matter is made out of the same stuff -- star dust. some religious expressions call us "star children."

 

[sojourner]

The bible is the most selling book in history. The creator god and his claimed son jesus are what are the bible promotes and the bible is the reason most christians and other religions believe in them.

True, but consider that the bible is one part of religious tradition. There were no bibles for hundreds of years of the Judaic religion, yet they still believed in a creator God. Why? Because they told stories. The bible is simply the written repository of those stories.

 

[sojourner]

He's probably right, but I know when I was a child I was intrigued by questions like:

How did the burning bush catch on fire?
Why did Moses's face start shining when he came down the mountain?
How did Noah fit all the animals in his ark?
etc.

Now I know there's an answer to these questions, I'd like to share it, and I hope the Bible remains popular for many centuries to come.

Oh, I think that there was a developing theological direction that the early writers were taking that sought to answer the "big questions" of the time. Genesis explains how wisdom makes us godlike. It explains why serpents don't have legs. It sets up the theological cornerstone of God's people being the "disinherited." But I'm not convinced that the "answer" is "42." (That trope in Hitchiker's Guide is a parody of such a quest, and points us to its futility.)

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

I'm aware of the Kabbalistic gematria theories, and while that's certainly one time-honored way to interpret these texts, I'm not convinced the epistemology holds up. I suppose the overriding reason is because of the nature of the texts, themselves. These ancient texts were orally transmitted long before they were written down. Many were lifted, either in part or in whole, from earlier stories from different and foreign cultures. Then there was the intense redaction that took place. Added to that the differences created when the Masoretes introduced the point system. It's not as if one person wrote the texts; they're amazingly conglomerate in their creation. It would seem that the gematria theories would only hold up if the texts were "intended" to be written the way they were. I'm not at all convinced that's the case.

While these theories can create some compelling treatments of the texts, I'm not convinced that there's an underlying, secret message that was at all the intent of the writers. At least not one that could be considered a valid exegesis of the texts. And I'm not at all convinced that such a treatment should be considered as the raison d'etre for the text's creation. I do think that such interpretations can introduce color and dimension to our understanding of the texts.

The accepted explanation, of course, is that the texts are mythic, and miracles always serve to create characters that are larger than life, in order to illustrate the moral or ethical points the characters are employed to make.

I don't see why there's any reason the miracles can't be taken as non-literal, and not upset one's faith. It certainly hasn't upset mine. But then, my faith isn't founded on the texts.

Fantastic! A skeptic! Doubt is a wonderful tool, as long as it is not closed minded. Would you do me a favour and read my paper on academia.edu and then do a brief review here for the other participants? I'd be fascinated to learn whether you still have doubts about my thesis after you've read it.

Part I of The Genesis Wheel is available here.

Thank you.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I will try to give you a more detailed answer later, but first a question....
If (as a Christian) one doesn't believe the account of Adam & Eve and their subsequent rebellion against Jehovah God as detailed in Genesis to be literal, exactly how does Jesus' sacrificing his life -- which according to text I must point out he was willing to do -- have any value? How is it a " ransom"?

(OK, two questions, sorry)

Sacrificial Atonement is only one valid theological construct of the Jesus Event.

 

[sojourner]

Fantastic! A skeptic! Doubt is a wonderful tool, as long as it is not closed minded. Would you do me a favour and read my paper on academia.edu and then do a brief review here for the other participants? I'd be fascinated to learn whether you still have doubts about my thesis after you've read it.

Part I of The Genesis Wheel is available here.

Thank you.

When I can get to it I shall.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

When I can get to it I shall.

Much appreciated Sojourner.

 

[sojourner]

To the locked door of the Bible there is just one key.

That's a poetic statement, but it sort of smacks of a wild-west nostrum, if you'll excuse the skepticism. I think there are different ways to skin a cat, and I think the bible is way more available than I think you're making it out to be in this post.

the details of the Noah story are for the purposes of gematria.

Or not. I don't think you've proved that gematria is the raison d'etre. And you are proceeding from that assumption.

 

[sojourner]

Much appreciated Sojourner.

Yes, I'm skeptical, but please don't misapprehend my skepticism for dismissal. I tend to be hard on posters who make sweeping statements, or who post belief as though it were provable fact. My mind has been changed by well-constructed argument.