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spirit of antichrist is in the world today

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If they do not know these bible facts--they are not theologians.( 2Corinthians 11:12-15)
With all due respect, I have read the works of many a theologian, and I have read your many posts here at RF, and between the two it is they who by far seem more familiar with the scriptures-- not even close. One thing you are lacking is knowledge dealing with traditional Jewish literature and how it was written and interpreted back then. Let me post where the 144,000 is covered and why your interpretation is unlikely:

Rev.14
[1]Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
[3] and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
[4] It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb,
[5] and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.
[6]Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;...


Notice the symbolism (some I underlined) used throughout the narrative, so isn't it much more logical to view the 144,000 as also being symbolic? And what reinforces this symbolism is the fact that 144,000 could not have been written as such, so the most likely breakdown would be twelve twelves thousands, which is symbolic for completion upon completion with great numbers.

Therefore, the interpretation that you have been taught is really quite illogical in the context of known traditional Jewish literature, and what I have seen many times coming from your leaders is an ignorance of that literature plus an ignorance of even basic archaeology and science. As long as you blindly follow them, you will never break away from their ignorance and/or disingenuousness on this and numerous other issues.

Anyhow, take care, and I hope you really do some serious studying on your own instead of blindly following the Watch Tower Society's teachings.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thousands might mean Jesus' reign.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
No! Are you saying that Revelation 19:11-16 pictures Jesus riding on the Earth?
You should rethink that. Oh! Wait a minute. You have no permission to think.


If you keep reading, one sees the fleshy part of kings being eaten--They are on the earth--That ride comes to the earth. I can think all I want. God gave all that right. So your post is error thinking. Accomplished by you thinking for yourself.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Who rides with Jesus at Revelation 19?
14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen.
Is the 144,000 riding with him there?


Whats the difference if they are or aren't? They are the bride, they will sit on thrones helping separate the sheep and goats and judge, even the fallen angels--It doesn't say they will ride to the earth to kill( wipe out the wicked)
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
With all due respect, I have read the works of many a theologian, and I have read your many posts here at RF, and between the two it is they who by far seem more familiar with the scriptures-- not even close. One thing you are lacking is knowledge dealing with traditional Jewish literature and how it was written and interpreted back then. Let me post where the 144,000 is covered and why your interpretation is unlikely:

Rev.14
[1]Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
[3] and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
[4] It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb,
[5] and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.
[6]Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;...


Notice the symbolism (some I underlined) used throughout the narrative, so isn't it much more logical to view the 144,000 as also being symbolic? And what reinforces this symbolism is the fact that 144,000 could not have been written as such, so the most likely breakdown would be twelve twelves thousands, which is symbolic for completion upon completion with great numbers.

Therefore, the interpretation that you have been taught is really quite illogical in the context of known traditional Jewish literature, and what I have seen many times coming from your leaders is an ignorance of that literature plus an ignorance of even basic archaeology and science. As long as you blindly follow them, you will never break away from their ignorance and/or disingenuousness on this and numerous other issues.

Anyhow, take care, and I hope you really do some serious studying on your own instead of blindly following the Watch Tower Society's teachings.


I don't blindly listen. I checked--They are Jesus real teachers--0 doubt whatsoever.
Gods chosen scholars of Jesus day-- Failed 100%--They rejected their own Messiah and sent him to his death out of hatred. All because they outright refused to make correction to errors. To this day are cut off of being Gods chosen( Matt 23:37-39)
They would claim that they were theologians as well. Just because someone is labeled a scholar does not make it so.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Whats the difference if they are or aren't? They are the bride, they will sit on thrones helping separate the sheep and goats and judge, even the fallen angels--It doesn't say they will ride to the earth to kill( wipe out the wicked)
It makes a difference to your theory if the other riders on white horses are the 144,000 because the 144,000 are Heavenly souls. Are they split between Heaven and Earth?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't blindly listen. I checked--They are Jesus real teachers--0 doubt whatsoever.
Gods chosen scholars of Jesus day-- Failed 100%--They rejected their own Messiah and sent him to his death out of hatred. All because they outright refused to make correction to errors. To this day are cut off of being Gods chosen( Matt 23:37-39)
They would claim that they were theologians as well. Just because someone is labeled a scholar does not make it so.
If they didn't hate Jesus would he have died?
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
It makes a difference to your theory if the other riders on white horses are the 144,000 because the 144,000 are Heavenly souls. Are they split between Heaven and Earth?


Jesus will lead Gods army of angels to earth at Har-mageddon
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I don't blindly listen. I checked--They are Jesus real teachers--0 doubt whatsoever.
All because they outright refused to make correction to errors.

So, the only reason you have, "0 doubt whatsoever" that you're teachers are Jesus' "real teachers" is because they correct the errors they teach?


Just because someone is labeled a scholar does not make it so.

Just because someone labels themselves as God's chosen slave, does not make it so!
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
So, the only reason you have, "0 doubt whatsoever" that you're teachers are Jesus' "real teachers" is because they correct the errors they teach?

No they corrected the errors from 1750 years ago and on as well. Because they are the only ones having these hidden truths revealed through them( Dan 12:4)




Just because someone labels themselves as God's chosen slave, does not make it so!

You are correct--34,000 religions claim to be Christian and get Holy spirit, but only one is correct, only one has Jesus as head of the congregation.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
You are correct--34,000 religions claim to be Christian and get Holy spirit, but only one is correct, only one has Jesus as head of the congregation.

You can't deny the fact that you've had your own bible since 1950, and they still taught errors, from the perfect translation.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You are correct--34,000 religions claim to be Christian and get Holy spirit, but only one is correct, only one has Jesus as head of the congregation.
I sure can't be the JW's because they weren't around when Jesus said he'd guide his church until he end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
You can't deny the fact that you've had your own bible since 1950, and they still taught errors, from the perfect translation.


There is no perfection with imperfect mortals. Certain truths came out at the proper time( When God willed it known) you cant seem to grasp that fact.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I sure can't be the JW's because they weren't around when Jesus said he'd guide his church until he end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.



Then you must believe Catholicism is correct--THE bible proves the opposite.
Sheol=Hebrew=Hades=Greek=Hell=English--the grave. Jesus religion didn't die it came back strong here in these last days--The great apostasy( son of peredition) had to come first( 2Thess 2:3)
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Certain truths came out at the proper time( When God willed it known) you cant seem to grasp that fact.

You can't seem to grasp the FACT that your are claiming God ALLOWS His "only channel", your "real teachers" to teach errors, non-truths, and demand that all witnesses accept it, until God sees fit to reveal the truth. Is that God's will?

Does God actually want His chosen people to believe errors (which, according to your "real teachers" are from the devil), until He wants the truth known?
 
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