Spending money to save at risk people might not be profitable!

[sun rise]

I think the fact that Mr. Millan's views have gathered almost instant support from the Right in America is evidence the Right does not believe in "life" as it professes to do so when arguing against abortion, but instead only believes something else -- maybe that women should not have sex and "get away with it".

Yes, the right is proving it is not "pro life" but just anti-abortion. Soylent Green time.

 

[shmogie]

Let's just say I agree with the article on principle.

I don't agree with the article on overall practicality.

You should not tank an entire nations economy for 2% of the people.

It's the classic philosophical argument in which needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few.

Hmmmm, don't the socialists have an answer to that problem?

 

[sun rise]

You're aware that many people will die from a failed global economy due to a global economic shutdown, right? 650,000 people die annually from the flu. Why don't we all quit going to work for the entire flu season? Maybe because groceries don't pay for themselves?

It's clear that it does not matter to some if 50,000 or 100,000 or any number die as long as the sacred dollar is worshiped and put above people.

 

[sun rise]

I was going to start a thread based on the Texas Lt. Governor's statement echoing what has been said here and elsewhere. Texas Lt. Gov.: Grandparents would be willing to die to save the economy

 

[shmogie]

It's the right that's promoting the idea that the old should die for the sake of the economy.

Triage is quite something else and is utterly false equivalence.

Triage ? Literally, "sorting", identifying who needs the most attention first and identifying the following order of those who need attention ?

" The Right is promoting the idea that the old should die for the sake of the economy." ???

What codswollop. You guy's on the leaft seem to be having a collective breakdown and resultant hallucinations.

 

[shmogie]

It's clear that it does not matter to some if 50,000 or 100,000 or any number die as long as the sacred dollar is worshiped and put above people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, more collective lefty idiocy.

Socialists are quickly regressing to children consumed by fantasies.

You guys aren;t doing well with the stress of this virus, are you?

 

[Revoltingest]

Triage ? Literally, "sorting", identifying who needs the most attention first and identifying the following order of those who need attention ?

" The Right is promoting the idea that the old should die for the sake of the economy." ???

What codswollop. You guy's on the leaft seem to be having a collective breakdown and resultant hallucinations.

I've noticed that this thread isn't really a conversation.
There's nothing well enuf defined to really address.
We have 2 sides slinging accusations at each other.
Ask yourself....
Am I getting anything from this? Is anyone?

I felt the need to join this donneybrook, but I couldn't
find any post to respond to...all were to slippery or
hyperbolic. So I settled on meta-posting.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Who is this guy? You think one opinion represents the view of tens of millions?

He certainly represents the Republican party. This is nothing new for them. What was all the resistance to Obamacare if not a disinclination to spend dollars on the health care needs of the many who needed it if not a callous indifference to the welfare of people when dollars are at stake?

Italy, according to one of their virologist MD's will no longer allow anyone infected over 60 to go onto breathing support equipment. Do you suggest those there making these decisions are following some nefarious rule of the American Republican party?

The Italians may be attempting to triage to optimize outcomes. But the Republicans aren't. They're simply trying to save dollars. Right now, no doubt McConnell is wondering how he can screw the American people on behalf of his wealthy contributors without it costing votes.

Is this tag you mention somehow associated with conservative thinking, or just selfish thinking?

Assuming that you were you referring to American conservative thinking and the Republican party, what's the difference?

the left supports aborting babies based on lack of said "dollars"... As if "dollars" dictate whether a life should enter the world to begin with... Does the circular hypocrisy ever end?

False claim.

Pro-choice people support the right of a pregnant woman in early to term to be the one to choose whether the pregnancy goes to term, not the Christian church using the force of US government. It has nothing to do with dollars unless what you mean is that some young women will be better able to support themselves and any babies they might have in the future if they don't have to deliver one at 15 and spend the rest of her life in squalor doing unskilled labor.

The pro-choice movment is rooted in human rights, not money. The Republican party is only about concentrating wealth, power, and privilege in the hands of a few on the backs of the many, many of whom still vote Republican anyway.

You should not tank an entire nations economy for 2% of the people. It's the classic philosophical argument in which needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few.

Except that's never a principle of the Republican party. Never. They only care about the few, the 1%.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Hmmmm, don't the socialists have an answer to that problem?

The way they're acting you would think so.
Except it's strikingly peculiar on how they avoid answering any questions whatsoever as to what exactly they're going to do.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Except that's never a principle of the Republican party. Never. They only care about the few, the 1%.

I could see where people can come to that assessment. I don't disagree entirely mind you as there is a degree of validity to that, but I do tend to look at it this way.

Poor people don't provide the jobs.

Rich people do.

 

[shmogie]

I was going to start a thread based on the Texas Lt. Governor's statement echoing what has been said here and elsewhere. Texas Lt. Gov.: Grandparents would be willing to die to save the economy

Your point being what? A hypothetical whereby grandparents would be willing to die to ENSURE their grandchildren could continue having the means for a quality life?

Is there something wrong with grandparents thinking like this?

Is it any different from a soldier who volunteered to see combat in WW2 for the benefit of his child, as my father and millions of other fathers did, and many, many thousands died in doing so ?

 

[Sirona]

While acknowledging that some comments made in this thread are probably exaggerated and not respresentative, reading stuff like this makes me thankful for living in a country with pro-choice and a functioning healthcare system.

“Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end.” (Immanuel Kant)

 

[sun rise]

" The Right is promoting the idea that the old should die for the sake of the economy." ???

That's what people here are saying and the Lt. Governor of Texas explicitly said and others on the right are saying indirectly.

By the way, if the death toll currently in Italy is scaled to the US population, that's 33,000 dying. And Italy is not done with the pandemic so it could be much worse.

Italy is the worse case right now, but the calls to give up on social isolation and everything else in pursuit of the almighty dollar and profits for the plutocrats, we could easily exceed their death toll.

And on a world wide basis that's north of 750,000 dying.

Of course I'm extrapolating on Italy but many other nations are doing a better job of social isolation and shutdown. But on the other hand, I expect India to do much worse given the large population so it's liable to balance out.

 

[Augustus]

You're aware that many people will die from a failed global economy due to a global economic shutdown, right? 650,000 people die annually from the flu. Why don't we all quit going to work for the entire flu season? Maybe because groceries don't pay for themselves?

People are still making the same vapid flu analogy

Also we don't know the long term effects of Coronavirus. It's not like the only alternatives are that you either die or are fine. There is a real possibility many people will have long-term health issues. There are many other things we do not know too.

When you don't know, and the effects could be catastrophic, it is best to err on the side of caution.

 

[shmogie]

He certainly represents the Republican party. This is nothing new for them. What was all the resistance to Obamacare if not a disinclination to spend dollars on the health care needs of the many who needed it if not a callous indifference to the welfare of people when dollars are at stake?



The Italians may be attempting to triage to optimize outcomes. But the Republicans aren't. They're simply trying to save dollars. Right now, no doubt McConnell is wondering how he can screw the American people on behalf of his wealthy contributors without it costing votes.



Assuming that you were you referring to American conservative thinking and the Republican party, what's the difference?



False claim.

Pro-choice people support the right of a pregnant woman in early to term to be the one to choose whether the pregnancy goes to term, not the Christian church using the force of US government. It has nothing to do with dollars unless what you mean is that some young women will be better able to support themselves and any babies they might have in the future if they don't have to deliver one at 15 and spend the rest of her life in squalor doing unskilled labor.

The pro-choice movment is rooted in human rights, not money. The Republican party is only about concentrating wealth, power, and privilege in the hands of a few on the backs of the many, many of whom still vote Republican anyway.



Except that's never a principle of the Republican party. Never. They only care about the few, the 1%.

What idiocy, and I mean pure idiocy.

The pro choice movement is rooted in killing inconvenient people, which makes it just as tawdry as any money making scheme. Lets not forget the money grubbing butcher physicians who do quite well from their butchery.

An abortion lover ought to feel quite good about the idea of extending the killing to another group of inconvenient people, and expand the concept of post birth abortions so loved by the left.

It is YOUR principle, why the feigned indignation? Your standard bearer, the alcoholic pelosi even tried to get more funding for abortion in the relief bill being hammered out in congress.

It is hilarious to watch abortion supporters saying that their murder isn't about anything financial, when part of the argument for it has always been about cost, the cost of a child to a poor mother, the cost of that child for society, and the cost of that child in incarceration because of how he might be raised.

These folk really can fool themselves in times of crisis.

 

[ManSinha]

Let me give you guys and gals some perspective

I was (emphasis on was) in active clinical practice when SARS broke out - I am a critical care physician.

There was intense concern among the members of my professional brotherhood that we would be on the front-lines deciding who gets the ventilator and who does not - at that time it did not come to that.

I remember going to ethics meetings and intense debates where no one on the front lines of healthcare delivery wanted to touch this proverbial hot potato. I have also done a course in ATLS - Advanced Trauma Life Support - where the training is to leave the most critically / potentially non salvageable in a multi trauma - think battlefield or multi car pile up or mass shooting and try and save those that can be - with the limited resources and time. Even the "fastest and most brilliant" surgical team can operate on only one patient at a time. With only so many operating rooms and teams to staff them - who would they take - someone very badly injured who might take hours under the knife or maybe two or three people with lesser injuries who could perhaps all be salvaged? Who decides? Based on what authority? Those are the scenarios being spoken about.

Remember while ventilators and masks can be manufactured - they still need qualified people to operate or oversee them. AI running our ICU's is not yet a fact of life. So hard as these decisions are - and again I sincerely hope - we do not come to that - given the nightmarish scenarios of the amount of people struck down and needing help in hospitals and ICU's - talking about it ahead of time is not something I would put the kibosh on

Again for those who think I am spouting off - here is an article that addresses some of the issues.

And a newer one from the fabled New England Journal of Medicine

New York Times article

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you think about it, the slowing of the spread is really only to prevent hospitals from becoming overwhelmed all at once... While hoping for a vaccination in the meantime.

...But ultimately, the 2.5% will likely be 2.5% regardless of the slowing of the spread. Just saying.

It will be significantly higher if this isn't slowed down. And more people than those with covid will die.
Are Hospitals Near Me Ready for Coronavirus? Here Are Nine Different Scenarios.

 

[shmogie]

That's what people here are saying and the Lt. Governor of Texas explicitly said and others on the right are saying indirectly.

By the way, if the death toll currently in Italy is scaled to the US population, that's 33,000 dying. And Italy is not done with the pandemic so it could be much worse.

Italy is the worse case right now, but the calls to give up on social isolation and everything else in pursuit of the almighty dollar and profits for the plutocrats, we could easily exceed their death toll.

And on a world wide basis that's north of 750,000 dying.

Of course I'm extrapolating on Italy but many other nations are doing a better job of social isolation and shutdown. But on the other hand, I expect India to do much worse given the large population so it's liable to balance out.

What other nations are doing a better job?

In essence then you believe it is an either or proposition. The health issue must be abandoned for the economic issue, or vice versa?

You don't seem to understand that it might be possible to do both.

Do you not understand that trashing the economy would lead to a massive depression for years, and depressions destroy society and kill on a grand scale?

" you can pay me now, or pay me later", that catchphrase of a commercial long ago applies here. Allow companies and jobs to die now, and the time will come of another great crisis, with no hope, no food, no work.

You are having fun denigrating those who are thinking about economic issues, but if a semblance of an economy isn't saved, you will be blaming them for the hell that results.

This is why the political venom may score some cheap points, but the reality is that we are facing both a giant health and economic crisis, in tandem, and ignoring either spells huge amounts of pure calamity and pain.

 

[Father Heathen]

Triage ? Literally, "sorting", identifying who needs the most attention first and identifying the following order of those who need attention ?

" The Right is promoting the idea that the old should die for the sake of the economy." ???

What codswollop. You guy's on the leaft seem to be having a collective breakdown and resultant hallucinations.

LMAO... See, here you are broad-brushing the left immediately after crying about the right being broad-brushed.

 

[tytlyf]

Hmmmm, don't the socialists have an answer to that problem?

Are you in favor of the socialist spending bill for the coronavirus? I'd assume you aren't a fan of that evil socialism found in Venezuela