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Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
However, there is no testable, measurable, or observable evidence of abiogenesis...........................

Miller Urey, as an example, was the observed, tested, and measured creation of amino acids, they are created in nature, most likely by a different process. Living organisms utilize left handed amino acids, virtually exclusively, Miller Urey produced 50% of each.

This is evidence of what ?
I see that you don't even have a clue about the purpose of the original experiment. With such a shallow understanding you are in no position to make your 'no evidence ' claim. At the time of that experiment creationists claimed that amino acids needed life to make them. They made all sorts of bogus claims and one of two correct ones, in a desperate attempt to refute that experiment. They still do so today. That should tell you something.

The only purpose was to show that they could form naturally. The problem of chirality does not appear to be as serious as creationists think that it is, but you won't even discuss Miller-Urey without all sorts of distortions.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Actually, if you knew just a bit of special relativity, you would know that is precisely wrong. The energy *is* different in different reference frames. And, in general relativity there *is* a problem even defining the total amount of energy.



Actually, in special relativity, the conservation of energy works no matter what frame you work in. And, if it works in one frame, it will work in ALL frames.

In general relativity, there are more difficulties, and you have to be careful, but there *is* a localized version of the conservation of energy and it works in all reference frames.



But energy *does* depend on reference frame. In fact, it is the fourth component of the energy-momentum four-vector.



And it is clear you don't understand what either special or general relativity actually say. Might I suggest a basic course that covers such?

I was talking about the universal energy balance, and not a local energy balance. The Conservation of Energy was developed using small isolated; insulated systems. Later applied science found the need to add an addendum connected to what was termed entropy. Entropy was a hidden part of the energy balance. This shows up as an affect on matter but may not have emissions. It is inferred from a deficit. Energy appears to disappear, if we only used energy signals to define the energy balance.

A universal energy balance should allow us to find the center of the universe from that energy balance. It would need to include the impact of entropy which is connected to the state of the universe's matter. Center of gravity still applies to an expanding universe, even of it has relative references base on energy emissions. Yet the consensus claims there is no center, therefore there is an energy balance problem. You can't have to both ways.

When we look at the universe, we see energy signals of various wavelengths. Beyond that energy, we have to depend on hypothesis to connect that data to matter. We cannot measure the matter directly to test the hypothesis on distant objects. Currently we assume the universe has always been the same with respect the relationships of matter and energy, even though the earth, from wince we experimentally got these matter/energy relationships, did not exist 10 billion years ago. We use a form of revisionists history to fill in the blanks before 6 billion years. Einstein told us that such data is relative to the observer and therefor difference references may not agree in terms if these extrapolated matter hypothesis.

Another practical problem is the properties of matter are dependent on pressure and temperature. Particle accelerators can achieve the high temperatures, via energy, but we do not have the matter needed to develop the extreme gravitational pressures. We cannot differentiate exotic phases within extreme gravity environments, since we have no earth data and accelerator data is not the same conditions.

For example, the center of Jupiter is assumed to contain metallic hydrogen at high temperature. This is induced because of high gravitational pressure. Our devices would never see this, even though the early universe may have been rich in this phase; lots of hydrogen in smaller space; rapid star formation. What do its emissions look like, and would hydrogen look the same or different if it was radiating from solids? Revisionists history has to use what it knows and cannot use what was actually there, if we do not know the gist from experimental evidence.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Nice try, in two, maybe three posts I asked you specific questions. You ignored all of them.

As I recall, this may be the first post in which you made this offer. See what you can find.

And remind us all - how many times have I very specifically asked you to link to/cite that "recent interview" with Stanley Miller you claim to have read?

And how many times did you reply to posts in which I had made that request? And how many times did you simply omit that request in your response?

This is what we mean by creationists like you being disingenuous and dishonest.

I can easily show where I have asked about this.

You creationists just play your little games and expect to be treated with respect and taken seriously.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
shmogie:
Nice try, in two, maybe three posts I asked you specific questions. You ignored all of them.

For @shmogie - the posts in which I have asked you to link to/cite the "recent interview" with Stanley Miller (deceased 2007) you claim to have read:


@shmogie first made the claim here, 9.8.19
Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

"Miller in a recent interview admits the experiment was a failure."


My first request, 9/11/19:
Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Miller in a recent interview admits the experiment was a failure.
Link/citation please. He died in 2007, by the way.


I won't bother quoting, but links to my subsequent requests:

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe



It is so weird - in my second reply to the shmogster on this subject in this thread - a reply to @shmogie - I quoted an actual interview with Miller.

I guess that is because, not being a creationist, and having actual education and experience in the subject matter, I don't feel the need to embellish and fabricate information to support my arguments, nor do I feel the need to play martyr and whine about how mean everyone is to avoid having to do so..
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
In terms of entropy and the Big Bang, an increase in entropy is endothermic; will absorb energy. The current Big Bang model have the singularity expanding space-time with its earliest matter/energy equivalent condensing as umpteen extreme energy particles.

This theory reflects a huge increase in early universe entropy; one thing is converted to umpteen things. This would be a huge endothermic heat sink. In other word, that phase change alone would take a lot of energy. So why didn't the universe contract again, since it lost so much energy into entropy; cooled, via the proposed phase change?

The analogy is heating ice at 0C. Before the water can increase temperature beyond 0C, all the heat goes into the ice phase change, and only when the ice melt is complete, can the second step appear; warm and expansion. Where did all the two step energy come from? Did the universe abort many times before it finally expanded for good?

There is another approach for starting the universe, from a singularity, that needs much less energy, up front. This approach generates much less entropy for start up, allowing more expansion energy; melting a smaller piece of ice. This approach will change the early universe including the universal energy balance.

Without further ado, a lower energy/entropy approach to the BB startup, would be to treat the singularity as a something similar to a mother cell in biology. The singularity splits into two instead of making umpteen particles. This entropy increase is much smaller; one into two. This process expands space-time.The daughter cells then split, further expanding space-time. Again, we still have more energy let over, than the umpteen particle phase change. This approach explains super structures forming very early.

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The observation that the universe is expanding relative to the galaxies suggests the last daughter cell split is at the galaxy level. This is where umpteen particles form. The observation of black holes at the center of many galaxies suggest this phase change was very endothermic, due it the entropy increase, resulting in much of the matter collapsing into black holes.

If this was synchronized, the powerful energy wave fronts coming from the last phase changing daughter cells would add turbulence causing expansion while creating variety.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
However, there is no testable, measurable, or observable evidence of abiogenesis...........................
You're amazing in your zeal.
Miller Urey, as an example, was the observed, tested, and measured creation of amino acids, they are created in nature, most likely by a different process. Living organisms utilize left handed amino acids, virtually exclusively, Miller Urey produced 50% of each.

This is evidence of what ?

At this point, I think we can conclude desperation AND ignorance AND a tendency to want to deceive....

Yet that is a false claim, for there IS research being done in abiogenesis - evidence that you struggle mightily to dismiss, primarily via mis-characterizing or ignoring or dismissing it. There is FAR more research being done in OOL than there is among creation 'scientists' in creation - indeed, there is virtually ZERO research done on creation by creation 'scientists - do you find that odd? 99% of creation 'research' consists of nit-picking evolution research or ad hominem assaults on Darwin or evolution researchers. Pretty pathetic.

False equivalence.

CREATIONIST: Abiogenesis has no evidence, creation has no evidence (except for bible lore, which is TRUE!), so accepting either is just faith.

REALIST: Um.. bible creation myths have no evidence at all, this is true, but here are 100 research papers over the last several decades documenting evidence supporting aspects of abiogenesis that creationists have been denying for decades, even though refutations of many of their claims are known to them. Has 'life been created from non-life in a lab' yet? Not at all, and nobody has claimed otherwise*. Have aspects of chemical evolution and bio-organic/prebiotic chemistry claimed to be impossible for decades (e.g., natural/prebiotic synthesis of organic molecules favoring asymmetrical production of L-isomers) been observed/demonstrated? Yes. Have any comparable research been done for fiat Divine creation? Nope.


CREATIONIST: See? No evidence for either. We are on equal footing. And by the way, Darwin was a racist!


For crying out loud, even Wikipedia demolishes your naive complaints:

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

"After Miller's death in 2007, scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments....
...
Other experiments
This experiment inspired many others. In 1961, Joan Oró found that the nucleotide base adenine could be made from hydrogen cyanide (HCN) and ammonia in a water solution. ...

...K. A. Wilde submitted a paper to Science on December 15, 1952, before Miller submitted his paper to the same journal on February 10, 1953. Wilde's paper was published on July 10, 1953.[19] Wilde used voltages up to only 600 V on a binary mixture of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water in a flow system. He observed only small amounts of carbon dioxide reduction to carbon monoxide, and no other significant reduction products or newly formed carbon compounds. Other researchers were studying UV-photolysis of water vapor with carbon monoxide. They have found that various alcohols, aldehydes and organic acids were synthesized in reaction mixture...

When Bada performed the Miller-type experiment with the addition of iron and carbonate minerals, the products were rich in amino acids. This suggests the origin of significant amounts of amino acids may have occurred on Earth even with an atmosphere containing carbon dioxide and nitrogen....

...
Some evidence suggests that Earth's original atmosphere might have contained fewer of the reducing molecules than was thought at the time of the Miller–Urey experiment. T... Experiments using these gases in addition to the ones in the original Miller–Urey experiment have produced more diverse molecules. The experiment created a mixture that was racemic (containing both L and D enantiomers) and experiments since have shown that "in the lab the two versions are equally likely to appear";[23] however, in nature, L amino acids dominate. Later experiments have confirmed disproportionate amounts of L or D oriented enantiomers are possible.[24]

Originally it was thought that the primitive secondary atmosphere contained mostly ammonia and methane. However, it is likely that most of the atmospheric carbon was CO2 with perhaps some CO and the nitrogen mostly N2. In practice gas mixtures containing CO, CO2, N2, etc. give much the same products as those containing CH4 and NH3 so long as there is no O2. The hydrogen atoms come mostly from water vapor. In fact, in order to generate aromatic amino acids under primitive earth conditions it is necessary to use less hydrogen-rich gaseous mixtures. Most of the natural amino acids, hydroxyacids, purines, pyrimidines, and sugars have been made in variants of the Miller experiment.[8][25]
...One of the authors, Owen Toon notes: "In this new scenario, organics can be produced efficiently in the early atmosphere, leading us back to the organic-rich soup-in-the-ocean concept... I think this study makes the experiments by Miller and others relevant again." Outgassing calculations using a chondritic model for the early earth complement the Waterloo/Colorado results in re-establishing the importance of the Miller–Urey experiment.[27]
...
In 2008, a group of scientists examined 11 vials left over from Miller's experiments of the early 1950s. In addition to the classic experiment, reminiscent of Charles Darwin's envisioned "warm little pond", Miller had also performed more experiments, including one with conditions similar to those of volcanic eruptions. This experiment had a nozzle spraying a jet of steam at the spark discharge. By using high-performance liquid chromatography and mass spectrometry, the group found more organic molecules than Miller had. They found that the volcano-like experiment had produced the most organic molecules, 22 amino acids, 5 amines and many hydroxylated molecules, which could have been formed by hydroxyl radicals produced by the electrified steam. The group suggested that volcanic island systems became rich in organic molecules in this way, and that the presence of carbonyl sulfide there could have helped these molecules form peptides....​


At least update your archived retorts and stop misrepresenting Miller.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Living organisms utilize left handed amino acids, virtually exclusively, Miller Urey produced 50% of each.

This is evidence of what ?

Now I see what you are getting at, shmogie.

You think the experiment was to create “LIFE”, or the “LIVING ORGANISMS”.

No, you are wrong. That wasn’t the parameters of this experiment.

The purpose of the experiment, was to create ORGANIC MATTERS from some INORGANIC COMPOUNDS. It was never the intention of the Miller-Urey experiment to create life. You are mistaken.

The experiment was set out to cause chemical reaction to form organic compound - AMINO ACIDS - which is the basic building block for one of three essential biological molecules: PROTEINS.

In just about every life form, particularly animals, proteins are most abundant organic compounds in the bodies, with multitude of anatomical and physiological functions.

In an adult human body, it make up 20% of the mass, followed by lipids or fat at 12%, and the rest of organic molecules are either 1% or less. The only other molecules that make up 65% is water...BUT water isn’t organic.

You might say... “Wait a minute...what about DNA and RNA?”

As important they are, RNA only make up 1% of a person’s mass, while DNA only make up 0.1%.

At no point, was any experiment was to create a living organism. I think you are confusing organic matter with living organism. They are not the same things. I don’t think Abiogenesis has reached this stage, an they may never do so.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You're amazing in your zeal.


At this point, I think we can conclude desperation AND ignorance AND a tendency to want to deceive....

Yet that is a false claim, for there IS research being done in abiogenesis - evidence that you struggle mightily to dismiss, primarily via mis-characterizing or ignoring or dismissing it. There is FAR more research being done in OOL than there is among creation 'scientists' in creation - indeed, there is virtually ZERO research done on creation by creation 'scientists - do you find that odd? 99% of creation 'research' consists of nit-picking evolution research or ad hominem assaults on Darwin or evolution researchers. Pretty pathetic.

False equivalence.

CREATIONIST: Abiogenesis has no evidence, creation has no evidence (except for bible lore, which is TRUE!), so accepting either is just faith.

REALIST: Um.. bible creation myths have no evidence at all, this is true, but here are 100 research papers over the last several decades documenting evidence supporting aspects of abiogenesis that creationists have been denying for decades, even though refutations of many of their claims are known to them. Has 'life been created from non-life in a lab' yet? Not at all, and nobody has claimed otherwise*. Have aspects of chemical evolution and bio-organic/prebiotic chemistry claimed to be impossible for decades (e.g., natural/prebiotic synthesis of organic molecules favoring asymmetrical production of L-isomers) been observed/demonstrated? Yes. Have any comparable research been done for fiat Divine creation? Nope.


CREATIONIST: See? No evidence for either. We are on equal footing. And by the way, Darwin was a racist!


For crying out loud, even Wikipedia demolishes your naive complaints:

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

"After Miller's death in 2007, scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments....
...
Other experiments
This experiment inspired many others. In 1961, Joan Oró found that the nucleotide base adenine could be made from hydrogen cyanide (HCN) and ammonia in a water solution. ...

...K. A. Wilde submitted a paper to Science on December 15, 1952, before Miller submitted his paper to the same journal on February 10, 1953. Wilde's paper was published on July 10, 1953.[19] Wilde used voltages up to only 600 V on a binary mixture of carbon dioxide (CO2) and water in a flow system. He observed only small amounts of carbon dioxide reduction to carbon monoxide, and no other significant reduction products or newly formed carbon compounds. Other researchers were studying UV-photolysis of water vapor with carbon monoxide. They have found that various alcohols, aldehydes and organic acids were synthesized in reaction mixture...

When Bada performed the Miller-type experiment with the addition of iron and carbonate minerals, the products were rich in amino acids. This suggests the origin of significant amounts of amino acids may have occurred on Earth even with an atmosphere containing carbon dioxide and nitrogen....

...
Some evidence suggests that Earth's original atmosphere might have contained fewer of the reducing molecules than was thought at the time of the Miller–Urey experiment. T... Experiments using these gases in addition to the ones in the original Miller–Urey experiment have produced more diverse molecules. The experiment created a mixture that was racemic (containing both L and D enantiomers) and experiments since have shown that "in the lab the two versions are equally likely to appear";[23] however, in nature, L amino acids dominate. Later experiments have confirmed disproportionate amounts of L or D oriented enantiomers are possible.[24]

Originally it was thought that the primitive secondary atmosphere contained mostly ammonia and methane. However, it is likely that most of the atmospheric carbon was CO2 with perhaps some CO and the nitrogen mostly N2. In practice gas mixtures containing CO, CO2, N2, etc. give much the same products as those containing CH4 and NH3 so long as there is no O2. The hydrogen atoms come mostly from water vapor. In fact, in order to generate aromatic amino acids under primitive earth conditions it is necessary to use less hydrogen-rich gaseous mixtures. Most of the natural amino acids, hydroxyacids, purines, pyrimidines, and sugars have been made in variants of the Miller experiment.[8][25]
...One of the authors, Owen Toon notes: "In this new scenario, organics can be produced efficiently in the early atmosphere, leading us back to the organic-rich soup-in-the-ocean concept... I think this study makes the experiments by Miller and others relevant again." Outgassing calculations using a chondritic model for the early earth complement the Waterloo/Colorado results in re-establishing the importance of the Miller–Urey experiment.[27]
...
In 2008, a group of scientists examined 11 vials left over from Miller's experiments of the early 1950s. In addition to the classic experiment, reminiscent of Charles Darwin's envisioned "warm little pond", Miller had also performed more experiments, including one with conditions similar to those of volcanic eruptions. This experiment had a nozzle spraying a jet of steam at the spark discharge. By using high-performance liquid chromatography and mass spectrometry, the group found more organic molecules than Miller had. They found that the volcano-like experiment had produced the most organic molecules, 22 amino acids, 5 amines and many hydroxylated molecules, which could have been formed by hydroxyl radicals produced by the electrified steam. The group suggested that volcanic island systems became rich in organic molecules in this way, and that the presence of carbonyl sulfide there could have helped these molecules form peptides....​


At least update your archived retorts and stop misrepresenting Miller.
Your personal comments really show the kind of person you are, sad.

I say so what to what you have posted. It really means little re abiogenesis.

Once again I ask you, what does the existence of amino acids have to do with the PROCESS that creates life ?

Salt is critical to life, it exists in abundance, what does this have to do with the creation of life ?

Organic molecules are not life, much more than amino acids are part of life.

One cannot deduce from these experiments anything about the PROCESS that created life.

They are about a process that creates organic molecules. Knowing how bricks are made says nothing about how a a building is made.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Your personal comments really show the kind of person you are, sad.
The fact that you keep posting discredited and false claims about the Miller-Urey experiments and conflating abiogenesis and evolution really show the kind of person you are, sad.
I say so what to what you have posted. It really means little re abiogenesis.

Well, that is one way of avoiding being honest and showing some integrity.

All of your dismissals show me that you do not understand the science involved. You seem to think that we should all be trying to 'create life' to prove abiogenesis - which you would, as you have already hinted at and many creationists have claimed outright - simply dismiss as being "designed experiments' and the like.

Why do you continue to conflate abiogenesis and evolution?

Why do you continue to misrepresent Miller's work and why do you refuse to produce this supposed "recent interview" with him in which, according to you, he claims his experiments failed?

Why do you refuse to acknowledge the advances being made in OOL research? Why do you keep yourself locked in 1950s era creationist cop outs and dis/misinformation?

Is that the only way you can keep justifying your anti-science faith? By attacking strawmem of science?

Once again I ask you, what does the existence of amino acids have to do with the PROCESS that creates life ?
Once again, if this is your actual question, why do you keep blabbering on about Miller?
Once again, I tell you that prior to Miller, creationists were declaring that NO bio-organic compounds could be made except by living things, thus, no abiogenesis.
Once again, I tell you that since Miller's original experiments, dozens of additional and different experiments have produced even more of these compounds abiotically, thus demolishing creationist complaints even more.

Once again, I tell you that scientists are at least looking into the issue, doing research, which is head and shoulders above anything any anti-science group is doing.
Once again, I explain to you that abiogenesis is consistent with evolution, but evolution does not depend on it.

Once again, I explain to you that abiogenesis is NOT part of evolution, so stop claiming that it is, for to do so will be blatantly dishonest and demonstrative of the sort of person you are, sad.
Salt is critical to life, it exists in abundance, what does this have to do with the creation of life ?

Organic molecules are not life, much more than amino acids are part of life.

One cannot deduce from these experiments anything about the PROCESS that created life.

They are about a process that creates organic molecules. Knowing how bricks are made says nothing about how a a building is made.
Then why do you continue to lie about Stanley Miller and carry on about abiogenesis?

Is it because you've realized that you have nothing to gain by trying (and failing) to argue against evolution, so you moved on to something that you can conflate with evolution for which there is less evidence?

Be cause that is sure what it seems like.

Still waiting for that "recent interview" with Miller who died in 2007 in which you report he claimed that his experiments were a failure. That is what - the 15th request?
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Nice try, in two, maybe three posts I asked you specific questions. You ignored all of them.

As I recall, this may be the first post in which you made this offer. See what you can find.
Again, I realize it can be difficult to keep track of individual conversations when you've got multiple people talking to you. But I have most certainly asked you before to specify what questions you'd like me to answer. But if you don't wish to ask them again, I'll not worry about it.

What did he submit ? I assume the remark was about the evolution of life.

I personally choose not to discuss it because I don´t have the full knowledge required to do so.
The point was about creationists' inability to understand that regardless of how the first self-replicators came to exist on earth, evolutionary theory still explains life's subsequent history. IOW, for some odd reason creationists keep thinking that by pointing out how OOL is an unsolved mystery, they are scoring points against evolution.

It doesn´t interest me. Call that progress if you choose, progress of what I don´t know.
When I first started these debates ~20 years ago creationists would make all sorts of arguments against just about every aspect of evolutionary biology. But now? Mostly what I see are things like "Oh yeah? Then explain the OOL/beginning of the universe then!"

To me, is a good indication of progress for us science advocates. We're not fighting the same stupid battles over things like moon dust any more.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Again, I realize it can be difficult to keep track of individual conversations when you've got multiple people talking to you. But I have most certainly asked you before to specify what questions you'd like me to answer. But if you don't wish to ask them again, I'll not worry about it.


The point was about creationists' inability to understand that regardless of how the first self-replicators came to exist on earth, evolutionary theory still explains life's subsequent history. IOW, for some odd reason creationists keep thinking that by pointing out how OOL is an unsolved mystery, they are scoring points against evolution.


When I first started these debates ~20 years ago creationists would make all sorts of arguments against just about every aspect of evolutionary biology. But now? Mostly what I see are things like "Oh yeah? Then explain the OOL/beginning of the universe then!"

To me, is a good indication of progress for us science advocates. We're not fighting the same stupid battles over things like moon dust any more.
The self replication, as you know, is the crux of the whole issue.

I discuss OOL because it interests me and I have taken the time to learn some about it. It is the absolute base of a house of cards, or NY skyscraper, depending upon your perspective.

How the precursor organism came to life is critical ultimately to the whole study of life. The study of life can be divided, then divided again into all kinds of specialties, but abiogenesis is the gorilla in the room for all.

Years ago it was part of biological evolution research. Darwin wrote about it.

For whatever reason, it was isolated and abandoned by biological evolutionists, which is fine, they can do whatever they choose.

However, it seems to me that the how of the precursor organism came to be fits into the ¨chain of life¨ which biological evolution essentially is. How and why is the purpose of evolutionary study. Yet the how and why of the beginning is ignored.

No matter.

Of course if the natural explanation of life cannot be found, then as negative evidence, it makes the case for a supernatural creation of life more appealing, to some.

I have used this quotation before, and I wish I could remember this professors name, and where I read it, but alas, I cannot.

He was or is a biochemist who held the chair of that study at a University, his specialty is or was abiogenesis research. He stated, ¨ It appears as though abiogenesis may be impossible, but I believe it had to have occurred because the alternative is just too horrible to contemplate¨

Those like this fellow could never believe anything other than what they believe. I memorized his words, because the ¨too horrible¨ part was amusing, his name, as far as my memory is concerned, is in the wind.

So, we are where we started, I hope with less rancor.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The fact that you keep posting discredited and false claims about the Miller-Urey experiments and conflating abiogenesis and evolution really show the kind of person you are, sad.

Well, that is one way of avoiding being honest and showing some integrity.

All of your dismissals show me that you do not understand the science involved. You seem to think that we should all be trying to 'create life' to prove abiogenesis - which you would, as you have already hinted at and many creationists have claimed outright - simply dismiss as being "designed experiments' and the like.

Why do you continue to conflate abiogenesis and evolution?

Why do you continue to misrepresent Miller's work and why do you refuse to produce this supposed "recent interview" with him in which, according to you, he claims his experiments failed?

Why do you refuse to acknowledge the advances being made in OOL research? Why do you keep yourself locked in 1950s era creationist cop outs and dis/misinformation?

Is that the only way you can keep justifying your anti-science faith? By attacking strawmem of science?


Once again, if this is your actual question, why do you keep blabbering on about Miller?
Once again, I tell you that prior to Miller, creationists were declaring that NO bio-organic compounds could be made except by living things, thus, no abiogenesis.
Once again, I tell you that since Miller's original experiments, dozens of additional and different experiments have produced even more of these compounds abiotically, thus demolishing creationist complaints even more.

Once again, I tell you that scientists are at least looking into the issue, doing research, which is head and shoulders above anything any anti-science group is doing.
Once again, I explain to you that abiogenesis is consistent with evolution, but evolution does not depend on it.

Once again, I explain to you that abiogenesis is NOT part of evolution, so stop claiming that it is, for to do so will be blatantly dishonest and demonstrative of the sort of person you are, sad.

Then why do you continue to lie about Stanley Miller and carry on about abiogenesis?

Is it because you've realized that you have nothing to gain by trying (and failing) to argue against evolution, so you moved on to something that you can conflate with evolution for which there is less evidence?

Be cause that is sure what it seems like.

Still waiting for that "recent interview" with Miller who died in 2007 in which you report he claimed that his experiments were a failure. That is what - the 15th request?
blah, blah, blah Time to get out of your gutter of personal attack, you are childish, and as far as comments about you, thatś it. You could have had everything you requested, but your blatant ad hominems make the desire to have a conversation with you wither like a raisin.

As I recall, in another conversation we had, your incivility was on display as well.

You cannot discuss ideas, like the child you are, without attacking the individual with whom you disagee.

To the ignore list with you, happy raging, so long.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I discuss OOL because it interests me and I have taken the time to learn some about it. It is the absolute base of a house of cards, or NY skyscraper, depending upon your perspective.

How the precursor organism came to life is critical ultimately to the whole study of life. The study of life can be divided, then divided again into all kinds of specialties, but abiogenesis is the gorilla in the room for all.

Except it quite obviously isn't - either logically or with regard to evidence - anything like the "base of a house of cards" because evolution - and the evidence for it - stands regardless. Even if we had absolute positive proof that life couldn't have started naturally, we would still have endless evidence that it did appear on Earth about 3 - 4 billion years ago in a simple form, and did subsequently undergo evolution which did result in the variety and complexity we now observe.

Nothing about evolution would change - there is no "house of cards" that would collapse.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I discuss OOL because it interests me and I have taken the time to learn some about it.
Didn't you say earlier that it has direct implications for your worldview? If I'm remembering that correctly, then I'd say this is more than just a passing interest for you.

It is the absolute base of a house of cards, or NY skyscraper, depending upon your perspective.
Again, not everyone thinks in such stark black/white terms.

How the precursor organism came to life is critical ultimately to the whole study of life. The study of life can be divided, then divided again into all kinds of specialties, but abiogenesis is the gorilla in the room for all.
Not really. As someone who's worked in biology for over 20 years, I can say that no matter what development comes from OOL research, it won't have any impact on my work. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority of my colleagues are almost completely in the dark about it.

Years ago it was part of biological evolution research. Darwin wrote about it.
"Darwin wrote about it" does not necessarily mean "therefore it was part of evolutionary biology research". However, it wouldn't surprise me if in the past (or perhaps in some cases still today) OOL research is a sub-category of evolutionary biology, much in the same way evolutionary biology is a sub-category of biology and biology is a sub-category of the life sciences.

For whatever reason, it was isolated and abandoned by biological evolutionists, which is fine, they can do whatever they choose.
Not sure what you're talking about, since I've seen no such "abandonment".

However, it seems to me that the how of the precursor organism came to be fits into the ¨chain of life¨ which biological evolution essentially is. How and why is the purpose of evolutionary study. Yet the how and why of the beginning is ignored.
First, I don't see how you can assert that OOL is "ignored" while simultaneously claiming that you stay up to date on the latest OOL research. Obviously if it was being ignored there would be no "latest research" for you to stay up on.

Second, let me see if I can put this another way.....no matter what comes of OOL research, we will still know that populations evolve via mutation, natural selection, drift, and the other primary evolutionary mechanisms; we will still know that humans share a common ancestry with other primates; we will still know that birds share a common ancestry with reptiles; we will still know that whales are evolved from terrestrial organisms; we will still know that (in a general sense) all life on earth shares a common ancestry....and so on.

Make sense?

Of course if the natural explanation of life cannot be found, then as negative evidence, it makes the case for a supernatural creation of life more appealing, to some.
I suggest you watch the following lecture from Neil deGrasse Tyson on that sort of thinking. As he notes via historical examples, even some of the most brilliant minds in the history of science have come up against what they perceived to be an unsolvable problem and declared it to be "the providence of the gods", only to have the problem be solved later by someone else....sometimes centuries later.


I have used this quotation before, and I wish I could remember this professors name, and where I read it, but alas, I cannot.

He was or is a biochemist who held the chair of that study at a University, his specialty is or was abiogenesis research. He stated, ¨ It appears as though abiogenesis may be impossible, but I believe it had to have occurred because the alternative is just too horrible to contemplate¨

Those like this fellow could never believe anything other than what they believe. I memorized his words, because the ¨too horrible¨ part was amusing, his name, as far as my memory is concerned, is in the wind.
FYI, that's a dishonestly mined quote from George Wald in 1958 and he was talking about spontaneous generation, not anything resembling modern day OOL research. You probably should stop using that quote.

So, we are where we started, I hope with less rancor.
That would be nice, but I have to wonder.....what were these questions you kept accusing me of ignoring?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Didn't you say earlier that it has direct implications for your worldview? If I'm remembering that correctly, then I'd say this is more than just a passing interest for you.


Again, not everyone thinks in such stark black/white terms.


Not really. As someone who's worked in biology for over 20 years, I can say that no matter what development comes from OOL research, it won't have any impact on my work. In fact, I'd wager the vast majority of my colleagues are almost completely in the dark about it.


"Darwin wrote about it" does not necessarily mean "therefore it was part of evolutionary biology research". However, it wouldn't surprise me if in the past (or perhaps in some cases still today) OOL research is a sub-category of evolutionary biology, much in the same way evolutionary biology is a sub-category of biology and biology is a sub-category of the life sciences.


Not sure what you're talking about, since I've seen no such "abandonment".


First, I don't see how you can assert that OOL is "ignored" while simultaneously claiming that you stay up to date on the latest OOL research. Obviously if it was being ignored there would be no "latest research" for you to stay up on.

Second, let me see if I can put this another way.....no matter what comes of OOL research, we will still know that populations evolve via mutation, natural selection, drift, and the other primary evolutionary mechanisms; we will still know that humans share a common ancestry with other primates; we will still know that birds share a common ancestry with reptiles; we will still know that whales are evolved from terrestrial organisms; we will still know that (in a general sense) all life on earth shares a common ancestry....and so on.

Make sense?


I suggest you watch the following lecture from Neil deGrasse Tyson on that sort of thinking. As he notes via historical examples, even some of the most brilliant minds in the history of science have come up against what they perceived to be an unsolvable problem and declared it to be "the providence of the gods", only to have the problem be solved later by someone else....sometimes centuries later.



FYI, that's a dishonestly mined quote from George Wald in 1958 and he was talking about spontaneous generation, not anything resembling modern day OOL research. You probably should stop using that quote.


That would be nice, but I have to wonder.....what were these questions you kept accusing me of ignoring?
I frankly now don´t remember. There were a few. When I taught ( and was a guest lecturer at the grad student level, a masters program) I used the method, famous in ancient Greece, of asking questions to make a point. Further, having been a criminal investigator, where proper questions are the best way to winkle out knowledge, I am very familiar with the method. As I recall, in one post there were three or four and about the same in the second.

They, of course, would have been about the subjects we were discussing.

What does dishonesty mined mean ? I read the article, and it certainly seemed as though Wald was speaking of Abiogenesis. If he was speaking of the spontaneous generation ( of life?) what possible difference would it make re the alternative ?

It is an awfully old quotation, I certainly grant you that, however, has research gone so far as to make his statement inaccurate ? I don´t see how. Has modern day OOL research lessened the possibility that determining that abiogenesis occurred on the early world is impossible ? If yes, how ?

Abiogenesis seems to have been abandoned by those touting macro evolution as a cold hard truth. They rarely will discuss it, and are always eager to point the finger and proclaim ¨ignorant¨, because one dared to ask something that apparently should never be asked.

Of course you can go about your work without thinking about abiogenesis. A dermatologist can go about her work without thinking about obstetrics, regardless, aren´t they linked in the big picture ?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I frankly now don´t remember. There were a few. When I taught ( and was a guest lecturer at the grad student level, a masters program) I used the method, famous in ancient Greece, of asking questions to make a point. Further, having been a criminal investigator, where proper questions are the best way to winkle out knowledge, I am very familiar with the method. As I recall, in one post there were three or four and about the same in the second.

They, of course, would have been about the subjects we were discussing.
Okay.

What does dishonesty mined mean ? I read the article, and it certainly seemed as though Wald was speaking of Abiogenesis. If he was speaking of the spontaneous generation ( of life?) what possible difference would it make re the alternative ?

It is an awfully old quotation, I certainly grant you that, however, has research gone so far as to make his statement inaccurate ? I don´t see how. Has modern day OOL research lessened the possibility that determining that abiogenesis occurred on the early world is impossible ? If yes, how ?
"Dishonestly mined" means it's taken and presented out of context. In this case, Wald was specifically talking about "spontaneous generation"

"Spontaneous generation refers to an obsolete body of thought on the ordinary formation of living organisms without descent from similar organisms. The theory of spontaneous generation held that living creatures could arise from nonliving matter and that such processes were commonplace and regular. For instance, it was hypothesized that certain forms such as fleas could arise from inanimate matter such as dust, or that maggots could arise from dead flesh."​

That's what Wald was speaking about (that's why he mentioned Pasteur). He most definitely was not speaking to modern OOL research, yet creationists oftentimes present it as if his statement is a damning indictment of it.

Abiogenesis seems to have been abandoned by those touting macro evolution as a cold hard truth. They rarely will discuss it, and are always eager to point the finger and proclaim ¨ignorant¨, because one dared to ask something that apparently should never be asked.
I've not seen that at all.

Of course you can go about your work without thinking about abiogenesis. A dermatologist can go about her work without thinking about obstetrics, regardless, aren´t they linked in the big picture ?
That's quite a step back from your earlier claim that OOL is "critical" to the life sciences and that a lack of an answer is a "gorilla in the room for all".

However, I will agree that in a very broad, big picture way, the OOL is relevant to the life sciences. But in a specific and immediately relevant way? No.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
In just about every life form, particularly animals, proteins are most abundant organic compounds in the bodies, with multitude of anatomical and physiological functions.

In an adult human body, it make up 20% of the mass, followed by lipids or fat at 12%, and the rest of organic molecules are either 1% or less. The only other molecules that make up 65% is water...BUT water isn’t organic.

What about carbohydrates?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What about carbohydrates?
I am not certain of this, but I think it is about 5%.

I read it somewhere, but I don’t remember where.

I think you would have to ask @Jose Fly, since he is the resident biologist. I don’t know about backgrounds of @tas8831 or @Subduction Zone, but they certainly know more about biology than I do.

Perhaps one of them might be able to give definite figures, but carbohydrates are tough one to crack, since they are found in just about every cells (in tissues, blood, rna/dna, etc), and often our metabolism breaks thing down into some forms of carbohydrates, and they are one of the sources of energy.

And the figures (percentages) could be higher because someone suffering from obesity.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I am not certain of this, but I think it is about 5%.

I read it somewhere, but I don’t remember where.

I think you would have to ask @Jose Fly, since he is the resident biologist. I don’t know about backgrounds of @tas8831 or @Subduction Zone, but they certainly know more about biology than I do.

Perhaps one of them might be able to give definite figures, but carbohydrates are tough one to crack, since they are found in just about every cells (in tissues, blood, rna/dna, etc), and often our metabolism breaks thing down into some forms of carbohydrates, and they are one of the sources of energy.

And the figures (percentages) could be higher because someone suffering from obesity.
Honestly, I don't know off the top of my head, and like I tell my kids....you'll get the same Google results as me! ;)
 
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