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Featured Special Pleading and the Problem of Evil

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Meow Mix, Jul 3, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I guess I will have to keep posting the same quotes over and over again. Knowledge does not cause anything to happen. If I knew my husband would cheat on me would I be the cause of his cheating? Why would it be any different for God, the principle is the same.

    “Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

    “the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

    The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139
    No, not after they were created. God passed the ball to humans when He gave them a rational soul and free will.
    God is not accountable for anyone except Himself.
    You mean things you don't like that you attribute to God. I used to think just like you but I finally woke up and smelled the coffee. I just hope I don't fall asleep again, life is a test.
     
  2. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Bad analogy.

    If you knew your husband was going to cheat on you before you got married, and you wanted a faithful husband, but you married him anyway, you would be to blame for marrying a cheater.

    You seem to be limiting "cause" as being the direct cause for any effect. You dismiss any succession of causes that God started. I made this point with my domino analogy. A line of 1000 dominos are set up with a button at the end that will detonate a bomb on a plane. You push the first domino and all 1000 fall and press the button. The plane explodes and all die. Yet you blame the last domino for detonating the bomb. You knew this would happen but take no responsibility for the deaths because you only pushed the first domino.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Bad analogy because it has no correlation to what happened after the world was created.

    All that God did was create the world. God had nothing to do with what humans did after that so there is no domino effect.
    God did not cause anything, man caused all of it.

    If God did not start it by creating the world there would be no world to live in and nothing could have happened either good or bad. You cannot even see how illogical you are because you are so set on blaming God. Have fun while it lasts because it won't last forever. I would not want to be in your shoes. I finally threw those shoes away and I worked long and hard to get a new pair of shoes. The ego is a real killer.

    Carry on.
     
  4. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Curious Kitty

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    Humans did not cause leukemia. Setting up the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology in the way they are set up caused leukemia.
     
  5. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Why can't a physical body be invulnerable to physical harm? Why do you think this is logically impossible? Why would it be logically impossible for me to choose the laws of physics to change in such a manner that whenever a bullet is going to hit me a different force appears to deflect the bullet, for instance?

    There is a distinction to be made here between what is logically impossible because it can't be logically possible and what is logically impossible because of our current state of affairs.
     
  6. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Yet what God created resulted in a series of causes and effects that would NOT have happened the way they did if God were to change what it started one way or another. You like to think humans have free will, but we can't choose differently from what God knows will happen, right?

    Is there any case where God is wrong about knowing the future?

    No, whatever exists does so because your God designed and created it. That includes the series of consequences that result in cancers in little children. I'm not attributing anything to your God, I'm saying if cancers exist and your God knew they would come to exist in what it created it was either an accident (and God is not perfect) or it was deliberate.

    Since cancers exist in the creation that God made I don't see how you can blame the process of creation and not the creator who KNEW cancers would occur. How does something God not like result in what it creates?
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    God did not cause leukemia or any other disease because God did not make it happen. God only allowed it to happen by giving the disease the necessary time and opportunity for happen. Moreover, you cannot say that God intended for it to happen, unless you think you know God's mind and intentions.

    Cause

    make (something, especially something bad) happen.
    "this disease can cause blindness"

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=cause+meaning

    Allow

    1. give (someone) permission to do something.
    "the dissident was allowed to leave the country"

    2. give the necessary time or opportunity for.
    "he stopped for a moment to allow his eyes to adjust"

    https://www.google.com/search?q=allow+means

    Intend

    1. have (a course of action) as one's purpose or objective; plan.
    "the company intends to cut about 4,500 jobs"

    2. design or destine (someone or something) for a particular purpose or end.
    "this one-roomed cottage was intended to accommodate a family"

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=intend+means
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is logically impossible given the current state of affairs and the way the laws of physics operate.
    Do you think that God should redesign the world and change the laws of physics? If so, why?
     
  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Because, in this analogy, God:

    - designed and built your husband,
    - knew he would cheat,
    - could have designed him some other way so he wouldn't cheat, and
    - chose that specific design despite knowing it would end up with him cheating.
     
  10. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    No. I think we should have had different laws of physics from the start.

    Let me make this point really clear: As far as the problem of evil goes, it wouldn't matter if God right now ceased and prevented all evil because the evil that happened in the past would still need to be explained if we are to claim that God is omnimax.

    Do you want me to explain why we should have had a different set of physics laws?
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Go ahead.
     
  12. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    For the same reason you have felt the need to mention free will as an excuse in your first post on this topic.
     
  13. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Curious Kitty

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    We can know that anything God does, God intended by definition of God being omnipotent and omniscient (again, this also means infallible).

    Infallible beings don't make mistakes, correct? So if suffering is part of God's design, suffering was not a mistake. Agreed? But this means God intended for suffering to exist. Do you see?

    Either God intended for physics to be set up in such a way as to allow suffering (this is the same thing as causing suffering), in which case God is not omnibenevolent.

    Or God made a mistake when creating physics the way that physics are, not realizing that suffering would result from it. In which case God is not infallible, or not omniscient, or not omnipotent.

    Do you see?
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That does not compute. Can you give me a direct answer?
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes I see.

    God probably did intend for suffering to exist because suffering is beneficial for humans, and God wants what is beneficial for us.

    “Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

    “The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

    THE BENEFITS OF GOD TO MAN

    God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?

    The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!

    Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection.

    Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ’s sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings—did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?

    These griefs are now ended.

    Caiaphas lived a comfortable and happy life while Peter’s life was full of sorrow and trial; which of these two is the more enviable? Assuredly we should choose the present state of Peter, for he possesses immortal life whilst Caiaphas has won eternal shame. The trials of Peter tested his fidelity. Tests are benefits from God, for which we should thank Him. Grief and sorrow do not come to us by chance, they are sent to us by the Divine Mercy for our own perfecting.

    While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.

    Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

    The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.

    The prayer of the prophets of God has always been, and still is: Oh God, I long to lay down my life in the path to Thee! I desire to shed my blood for Thee, and to make the supreme sacrifice.

    Paris Talks, pp. 49-51
     
  16. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Only if you tell me the reason why you have felt the need to state that free will justifies anything. Because the answer is right there. What is it that needed to be justified? And why?

    Whatever it is, free will is not the proper fix as I have shown. Changing how the laws of physics work might be though.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What did I say was justified by free will? Why did it need to be justified?
    What would be fixed by changing the laws of physics?
     
  18. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Curious Kitty

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    Can you give me an example of suffering that is beneficial in and of itself (not as a means to an end, like an inoculation), and that isn't just preparing a person to better defend against future suffering?

    For instance, as I've given elsewhere, it is good to feel pain in my fingertips because if I touch a hot burner I know not to touch it again, right? I learn to avoid hot things.

    But can you see how this "skill" is useless in a world where hot things cannot harm me?

    So, can you think of an example of suffering that is beneficial unto itself (not as a means to an end), and that doesn't just help us prepare for future suffering?

    For bonus points, how does a child getting bone cancer, suffering horribly, and dying improve the child?
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why wouldn’t preventing future suffering as I described in my last post not be beneficial? Are you suggesting that God should created a world where no suffering would have been possible in which case we would never need to learn any lessons? Why would be the purpose of such a life where we never need to learn anything from our mistakes? Are we going to spend our whole lives just enjoying ourselves? If we have a job is God going to be sure we never suffer in our work? If we get married is God going to be sure we have a happy marriage so we never suffer? If we go to college is God going to do all our homework so we won’t have to suffer to earn a degree and we can party hardy? If we have children is God going to prevent the pain of childbirth?

    What kind of a world would this be? Have you ever thought this through? Do you realize that older people who have suffered and learned a lot of hard lessons have something to teach the younger generation? I sure wish I had someone who cared enough about me to help me when I was I my 20s and early 30s, because my life could have been a lot different if someone had cared enough.
    I never claimed that it did as I never claimed that all suffering is beneficial. However, there is recompense from God for children and others who suffer through no fault of their own and just because you don’t believe it does not mean it does not exist.
     
  20. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Please read this post of yours and tell me why you have mentioned free will:

    What was the purpose of mentioning free will?
     
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