Speaking of Christmas

[BSM1]

First of all, I can't find the word Easter in the Bible. Easter is the non-biblical Resurrection of Spring, Not Jesus.
The death of Jesus is Not celebrated as Easter, but the day of death has been termed as Good Friday.
So, the death *is* remembered by the passing of bread and wine on what the world calls 'Good Friday'.
And as we know the annual anniversary of one's death does Not always fall on a Friday, just as a wedding anniversary does Not always come on Friday. Jesus' day of death is closely connected to the annual Jewish Passover, the date of Nisan 14 on the Jewish calendar as the day starts in Jerusalem.- Luke 22:19.

Also, please note the un-named ' wise men ' were Not kings, but were magi or astrologers.
I can't see how giving a present because of the birth of a baby is evidence of an annual birthday celebration.

And don't even get me started on the Little Drummer Boy.....

 

[Ponder This]

Assume the following in order to answer:

Jesus Christ was born.
Specifically, He was born on December 25.
He spoke to us through the authors of the gospels.

Now the questions:

Where is the evidence that Jesus would want us to celebrate His birth?
Why would we even want to celebrate such an occurrence? (In my mind, He left paradise to come to the earth, a place more like hell than heaven, so why is that an event to celebrate?)

It seems much more logical to celebrate his death. (First, that accomplished His purpose, and second, it allowed Him to return to paradise.)

Jesus doesn't call for anyone to worship him, his birth, or his death.
The notion that Christians need to celebrate Christ's birth is putting the cart before the horse.
People don't revere Christ because they are Christians; they are Christian because they revere Christ.
Although it may seem to be the same thing. It isn't.

The question of whether Jesus would want us to celebrate him is ironically irrelevant. People celebrate him because they want to and not because he wants them to... or at least, imo, they shouldn't celebrate him if they don't actual want to. What would be the point in that?

 

[metis]

The 'Lord's day' of Revelation 1:10 is meaning our day or our time frame.
There is No Sunday day in Scripture.

We know that the apostolic church by the end of the first century and beyond referred to Sunday as being "the Lord's day" because of the resurrection, and Sunday shows up in the Didache as being the day to celebrate the "agape meal" and to also commemorate the partaking in the bread & wine.

There is No Scripture of any Jew celebrating birthdays.

My wife is from Italy, and they put very little relevance on birthdays there. However, I would suggest there's nothing intrinsically evil about celebrating one's birthday..

 

[metis]

Since I find Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died on the Spring Jewish calendar date of Nisan the 14th day, then Jesus would have turned 34 in the Fall or Autumn of the year, thus making his day of birth closer to the end of September or the beginning of October.

The apostolic church never claimed Jesus was born on the 25th of December, but that day was probably chosen because people had a day off on that date because of a Roman celebration. "Christmas", the "mass of Christ", was put on the "liturgical calendar" not because the church believed he was born on the day but because he came into existence period.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The apostolic church never claimed Jesus was born on the 25th of December, but that day was probably chosen because people had a day off on that date because of a Roman celebration. "Christmas", the "mass of Christ", was put on the "liturgical calendar" not because the church believed he was born on the day but because he came into existence period.

I find if the church did Not believe he was born on the day, then the church is teaching a lie, or letting people believe a lie, and we know who is the father of the lie according to John 8:44.

 

[Katzpur]

Assume the following in order to answer:

Jesus Christ was born.
Specifically, He was born on December 25.
He spoke to us through the authors of the gospels.

Now the questions:

Where is the evidence that Jesus would want us to celebrate His birth?
Why would we even want to celebrate such an occurrence? (In my mind, He left paradise to come to the earth, a place more like hell than heaven, so why is that an event to celebrate?)

It seems much more logical to celebrate his death. (First, that accomplished His purpose, and second, it allowed Him to return to paradise.)

Well, I can't very well assume that He was born on December 25, since the likelihood of that is practically nil. With that in mind, my answer to your question would be that when I celebrate Christmas, I don't specifically celebrate only the day of His birth, but the beginning of His miraculous birth, life, ministry, death and resurrection. They're all a part of a single story, and without the start of the story, there could never have been the end. As to celebrating His death, per se, that, to me, is pointless. People had been dying for millenia prior to His being crucified. Dying only paved the way for the Resurrection, which is definitely worth celebrating.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I think that 'Birth" is just a better meme object than "Death." For instance the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were death, but why not paint it as the birth of humanity having its life in its own hands?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And don't even get me started on the Little Drummer Boy.....

Interesting that you mentioned the Little Drummer Boy because that song was a favorite of one of my Catholic aunts.
They even played it at her son's funeral. Interesting to me is that such a song is un-scriptural besides the fact that my aunt said she hated the holidays.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think that 'Birth" is just a better meme object than "Death." For instance the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were death, but why not paint it as the birth of humanity having its life in its own hands?

I find the words of Jeremiah 10:23 prove true that man can't direct his step. Man dominates man to man's hurt or man's injury. So, that is why we need someone to step in for mankind. The Bible paints Jesus as the 'birth', so to speak, of humanity because of Jesus having life in Jesus' hands (safe hands to be in). So, Jesus will step in meaning that Jesus was given the power of the resurrection. ALL of Jesus' resurrections were bringing people back to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth, so Jesus was giving us a small preview, or coming attraction, of what in the future he will be doing on a grand-global scale during his coming 1,000-year reign over Earth. The dead from Hiroshima and Nagasaki can have a perfectly healthy physical resurrection re-united with loved ones to live life back on Earth.
They can become part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5.
Whereas the wicked will be destroyed forever as found at Psalms 92:7.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

As to celebrating His death, per se, that, to me, is pointless. People had been dying for millenia prior to His being crucified. Dying only paved the way for the Resurrection, which is definitely worth celebrating.

This might sound kind of nit-picky, but it is Not meant to sound that way.
Is Luke 22:19 really saying 'celebrating' his death, or 'remembering' his day of death (Nisan 14 Jewish calendar).
Without Jesus' faithful Passover ' day of death ' there would be No resurrection.
I find Jesus instructed to be 'remembered' by his day of death at Luke 22:19. A memorial of his death day.

Adam and Eve had favorable conditions and proved un-faithful, un-loving to their God and Father.
Satan challenges all of us that under un-favorable conditions we would Not serve God.
Touch our ' flesh ' ( Job 2:4-5 ) meaning loose physical health and we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved faithful to death, Not faithful to resurrection.
Perhaps that is why Matthew 24:13 says to endure to the end. Not endure to the resurrection but end of one's life.
Of course, when we are resurrected that will definitely be a time ( a millennium-time ) worth celebrating because of 'remembering' (Not forgetting) Nisan the 14th day on the Jewish calendar when Jesus passed the bread and wine.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We know that the apostolic church by the end of the first century and beyond referred to Sunday as being "the Lord's day" because of the resurrection, and Sunday shows up in the Didache as being the day to celebrate the "agape meal" and to also commemorate the partaking in the bread & wine.
My wife is from Italy, and they put very little relevance on birthdays there. However, I would suggest there's nothing intrinsically evil about celebrating one's birthday..

Thank you for your reply, but I can't find ' that we know Sunday as being "the Lord's day" '.
I find the setting or time frame came to be for Revelation is set for out day or our time frame.
Our time frame as found at Revelation 1:10 is known as the "Lord's day" , Not just one day out of the week.
Just as Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth is Not one literal day, but a thousand-year day.

I wonder why there are No Jewish nor Christian birthdays mentioned in Scripture.

P. S. any thoughts on post # 18

 

[BSM1]

Interesting that you mentioned the Little Drummer Boy because that song was a favorite of one of my Catholic aunts.
They even played it at her son's funeral. Interesting to me is that such a song is un-scriptural besides the fact that my aunt said she hated the holidays.

If I am not mistaken the song came out in 1959. I was nine at the time. Just thought I'd throw this in.

 

[metis]

I find if the church did Not believe he was born on the day, then the church is teaching a lie, or letting people believe a lie, and we know who is the father of the lie according to John 8:44.

No, it's a day marked on a liturgical calendar for commemoration of Jesus. To call that a "lie" totally misses the mark. There are numerous saint's days on the calendar to commemorate them but it was never a teaching that they were born on that same day.

Secondly, a man has a father and a mother as birth-parents, but if the true father is the HS, then logically doesn't that make Jesus something other than just a normal man?

 

[metis]

Thank you for your reply, but I can't find ' that we know Sunday as being "the Lord's day" '.

See: Lord's Day - Wikipedia

I wonder why there are No Jewish nor Christian birthdays mentioned in Scripture.

When someone is born, that's their "birthday". Now, whether they decide to celebrate that is pretty much up to them and their families, I would suggest. What difference does that make to you if they choose to do so or not? What supposed "evil" is involved, and please cite your source of where it is supposedly forbidden? Are you trying to micro-manage every one else's life?

 

[metis]

I wonder what calendar would they have used in the first century to be the first day of the week.

The Jewish calendar.

At Acts of the Apostles 20:7 I find a point of detail as they are having fellowship, or a fellowship meal, I don't see that 'breaking of bread' as used in worship.

It's covered both in the Didache and other early church writings. The agape meal and the taking of bread and wine were actually not done at exactly the same time but both were done on Sunday. As Sunday gradually replace Shabbat as the main day of worship, the agape meal was dropped but the service whereas bread and wine was consumed as Jesus' memorial feast was retained. Since church was overwhelmingly gentile, and since the 613 Jewish Laws as found in Torah were no longer required, having a Shabbat observance was no longer required.

I don't see where they are gathered together as ' their day of their main church service day '.

Second century, and it was done sorta gradually as not all local churches were on board at first. However, by the end of the second century it was the norm.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If I am not mistaken the song came out in 1959. I was nine at the time. Just thought I'd throw this in.

I think you could very well be right about 1959 because my cousin was born in 1956 and he was very young at that time when we were visiting with my aunt and uncle. Perhaps she connected her young grandson with being a little drummer boy. You've given me 'pause for thought' about that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....................
Secondly, a man has a father and a mother as birth-parents, but if the true father is the HS, then logically doesn't that make Jesus something other than just a normal man?

I find the true Father of Jesus was his God, and that his God used His holy spirit in sending forth pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth - Psalms 104:30.
Since Jesus was born with human perfection (No imperfect leanings toward sin) then Jesus was something other than just a 'normal sinning man' as we are. ( Normal only in the sense that all we know is falling short by sinning )

Sinless Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice for us. If you put 'sin-less Adam' on one side of the balance scale the only thing that would re-balance the scale would be an equal to a sin-less Adam. Someone sinless. Since none of us sinners could provide that equalizing re-balancing to the Scale of Justice, then we needed someone who could be a corresponding ransom to undo the damage sinner Adam brought upon us. Sinless Jesus could and did re-balance the Scale of Justice for us. Something sinner Adam could Not do.

We can Not resurrect oneself or another because we can Not stop sinning. So, we needed someone who could do that resurrecting for us. Sinless Jesus remaining sinless and dying sinless thus provides that corresponding ransom price of being equal to an originally sinless Adam.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Day
When someone is born, that's their "birthday". Now, whether they decide to celebrate that is pretty much up to them and their families, I would suggest. What difference does that make to you if they choose to do so or not? What supposed "evil" is involved, and please cite your source of where it is supposedly forbidden? Are you trying to micro-manage every one else's life?

Ouch! What is micro-manage about free-will choices. I find God forces No one to follow Scripture.
God only lets us know the day of death is better at Ecclesiastes 7:1.
A person has No say, No choice, about being born. No one accomplishes his own birth.
The birthday boy is served as the center of attention and Not the Creator - Romans 1:25
I find it is true that Jews did Not celebrate birthdays. That was something done by the non-Jews.
The only two birthday celebrations mentioned in Scripture were in reference to non-Jews.
There is No record in Scripture of the Apostles, or Jesus' family, celebrating birthdays.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Jewish calendar.
It's covered both in the Didache and other early church writings. The agape meal and the taking of bread and wine were actually not done at exactly the same time but both were done on Sunday. As Sunday gradually replace Shabbat as the main day of worship, the agape meal was dropped but the service whereas bread and wine was consumed as Jesus' memorial feast was retained. Since church was overwhelmingly gentile, and since the 613 Jewish Laws as found in Torah were no longer required, having a Shabbat observance was no longer required.
Second century, and it was done sorta gradually as not all local churches were on board at first. However, by the end of the second century it was the norm.

And what do you find was done 'sort of gradually' according to Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 but an apostasy.
So, I finds by the end of the second century the apostasy was well on its way.
Right, Jesus is the end of the Jewish Law - Romans 10:4, and replaced by Luke 22:19 Not any particular day of the week. Sunday was set up and chosen as a rest day for farmers by non-Christians.
Just as Jesus said fake ' weed/tares' Christians would grow together with the genuine ' wheat ' Christians until the harvest time. As we know a harvest comes at the ' end ' of a growing season. The soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33,37 is in connection to the harvest or end time for the fake added on or subtracted from Scripture teachings which started at the end of the first century down to our day.
Early church writings are Not Scripture, but are church tradition or church customs which Jesus taught to avoid at Matthew 15:9.

 

[metis]

There is No record in Scripture of the Apostles, or Jesus' family, celebrating birthdays.

Neither did they drive cars, so according to what you're saying, cars are "pagan", therefore evil.

There's simply nothing about celebrating a birthday that is evil in any way. By itself, it does not deny God. Nor is the recognition of Jesus' presence and birth evil in any way, but it may be evil by making something so beautiful evil.