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Featured Speaking of Christmas

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Jeremiah Ames, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    Assume the following in order to answer:

    Jesus Christ was born.
    Specifically, He was born on December 25.
    He spoke to us through the authors of the gospels.

    Now the questions:

    Where is the evidence that Jesus would want us to celebrate His birth?
    Why would we even want to celebrate such an occurrence? (In my mind, He left paradise to come to the earth, a place more like hell than heaven, so why is that an event to celebrate?)

    It seems much more logical to celebrate his death. (First, that accomplished His purpose, and second, it allowed Him to return to paradise.)
     
  2. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Just a couple of thoughts:

    1) We really don't know the date he was born
    2) Certainly His birth was marked by the angels saying "peace on earth, good will to men"... so I guess its all right to celebate His birth.
    3) It is a cause for celebration in that He died for us but also that He resurrected thus we also celebrate Easter.
     
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  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Considering text of the gospels Jesus Christ was born in the spring in March or April. I favor about March 21. Generally Christians observe his birth and death.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since I find Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died on the Spring Jewish calendar date of Nisan the 14th day, then Jesus would have turned 34 in the Fall or Autumn of the year, thus making his day of birth closer to the end of September or the beginning of October.
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    This is an exaggerated claim, and at best an approximation, without evidence.

    I believe tax collection in Rome, when it took place was in the spring.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Just a few of more thoughts:
    1) I find there is No way to calculate his day of birth, but we can figure out the season because being put to death on the Spring Jewish Passover date, on the Jewish calendar day of Nisan the 14th, at age 33 1/2 thus places his birth in the Fall or Autumn of the year.
    2) Since Jews did Not celebrate birthdays is one reason why there is No mention of anyone's birthday in Scripture.
    Anyone Jewish that is. There is mention of two non-Jews celebrating, but both with dire outcomes.
    3) Although God did resurrect Jesus out of the grave as per Acts of the Apostles 2:27,31-32; Colossians 2:12, Jesus did Not instruct us keep a remembrance date of his being resurrected, but rather instructed us to keep his memory alive by remembering his day of death by the instructions given at Luke 22:19. The world often calls that day as Good Friday, but we need to keep in mind just as an anniversary day does Not always fall on a Friday the calendar day of Jesus' death would Not always fall or come on a Friday.
     
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  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I can't disagree that there could have been Spring tax collections, but this registration does Not match that right after his baptism in the river, that Jesus right away after baptism went into the wilderness for 40 days as per Mark 3:11-13.
    That would seem odd to be 40 days in the wilderness during Wintertime, so being 30 years old at this baptism would Not have been in Winter because Jesus was 33 1/2 years old at his Springtime death.
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find that when Adam and Eve were first on Earth they were in the paradisical garden of Eden. Not heaven.
    Jesus, on the other hand, left Heaven for an Earth that was No longer a paradise at that time.
    Earth is Not a place more like hell because the Bible's hell is just man's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead until Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming millenium-long day of governing over Earth for 1,000 years.

    The teaching about a 'religious-myth hell of burning forever' is Not the Bible's hell, but is taught as being Scripture.
    Otherwise, if biblical hell was permanent then Jesus would still be in hell since Jesus went to hell the day he died.
    So, I find Earth is neither like Heaven, and is neither like any Hell fire teaching.
    Without man ruining Earth, then Earth would still be a Paradise. Since corrupted man brings ruin to Earth is why God will bring such people to ruin as per Revelation 11:18 B.
    To me, Earth to once again become a paradise is a reason to commemorate the Ransom price of his Day of Death which Jesus paid for us, and instructed us to observe his day of death by his recorded words found at Luke 22:19.
     
  9. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Exactly!

    Celebration of events (like unto the birth of Jesus) is celebrated often such as the festival of lights. Since apparently God had not problems with the Kings coming with presents, nor the angels celebrating the birth, I think it is ok.

    Do you have a scripture where it says you shouldn't?

    I think they called it "the Lord's day", so I'm not sure there is a problem
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The 'Lord's day' of Revelation 1:10 is meaning our day or our time frame.
    There is No Sunday day in Scripture.
    I forget who it was that set aside 'Sun'day as a rest day because of the farmers.
    I guess it was clergy (Not Scripture) who then decided to name Sunday as for the Lord.
    I can't find any Scripture saying that kings came with presents.
    The un-numbered magi were astrologers who were never at the manger scene.
    The *star* finally led them to Jesus' enemy in Jerusalem ( Not Bethlehem ).
    By the time they found Jesus he was then a young child in a House and Not a baby as per Matthew 2.

    There is No Scripture of any Jew celebrating birthdays.
    There is No record of how the apostles celebrated Jesus' birthday.
    As Ecclesiastes 7:1 states the day of death is better than the day of birth.
    I find that is because we did nothing to cause our birth, but we do cause making a name for one's self.
    So, by the day of one's death then one has a made a name for one's self with man and especially with his God.
     
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  11. Child Empress

    Child Empress Left-Hand Tantric Path

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    The general consensus is that Christos was born in mid to late September or March, not December...

    I never really dwelt on why everyone celebrates Christos birth instead of his death. I have read that the Church made the Winter Solstice the date to celebrate Christos birth so it’d be easier to convert Pagans.
     
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  12. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I don't agree with the premises for reasons discussed above. But...

    Under the assumptions made here, the fact that the 'wise men' came to celebrate the birth is evidence that the birth is to be celebrated.

    And the death *is* celebrated: it's called Easter.
     
  13. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    There is no LSD in scripture either.

    But it is called "the first day. Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

    1 Cor 6:
    2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

    (The first day, not the Sabbath)

    No... it wasn't that.

    All of this is true. My appologies in reference to the Maggi (although they did bring him gifts)... but the angels were there for sure celebrating the birth.

    There is no record of the not celebrating the birthday. And there is no scripture that says you CAN'T celebrate His birthday... what it does say is this:

    Rom 14:
    5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
    6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

    In other words... if for you celebrate it is wrong, and you do it as unto the Lord, then you do it for His glory and it is acceptable. If someone else does celebrate it and does it unto the Lord... it is also acceptable.

    13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another....
    14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself

    Great verse, great application. Nothing to do with celebrating a birthday.

    PS... we don't know whether the Magi were kings or not. "As early as the second century Tertullian considered the Magi to be kings." Could be and then again, possibly not. Gifts were real, though.
     
    #13 KenS, Dec 23, 2017
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  14. BSM1

    BSM1 What? Me worry?

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    This, plus the shepherds had their flocks out at night. The only time that happens is when the ewes are lambing. Sheep only mate in the fall and give birth in the spring. Your March 21 could be very close.
     
  15. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The date 12/25 is close to the solstice in the North when darkness is at its height. The celebration is thus not the literal birth but the birth of light in the midst of darkness.

    In the East, the day of death can be spoken of as "he completed his work" in the world so one would celebrate a death day.
     
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  16. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    So very well said. Thank you.
    I wish I could find people who think like you in the churches I have visited.
     
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  17. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to all for the interesting and informative posts.
    Merry Christmas to all.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Gifts were real but Not given at Jesus birth. The Astrologers were never at the manger.
    Tertullian was Not one of the Bible writers.
    Since the human creation is the center of attention at a birthday party then Romans 1:25 applies as to who is served.

    I wonder what calendar would they have used in the first century to be the first day of the week.
    What would be the point of a separate day since Colossians 2:16-17 says let No man judge you of Sabbath days.
    I find Romans 14:5-6 says to esteem everyday alike.

    At Acts of the Apostles 20:7 I find a point of detail as they are having fellowship, or a fellowship meal, I don't see that 'breaking of bread' as used in worship. I don't see where they are gathered together as ' their day of their main church service day '.
    At 1 Corinthians 16:2 so as Not to run out of money before week's end then set aside funds at the beginning of the week, or as we would do that first on pay day and Not wait for later in the week.
     
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  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Your ^ above ^ response corresponds to Solomon's words at Ecclesiastes 7:1 that the day of death is better than the day of birth. After all, at death a person has made a name for themselves with both men and their God/god.

    Before Christendom re-named the winter Solstice or Saturnalia to Christ's mass it was an old non-biblical festival.
     
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  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    First of all, I can't find the word Easter in the Bible. Easter is the non-biblical Resurrection of Spring, Not Jesus.
    The death of Jesus is Not celebrated as Easter, but the day of death has been termed as Good Friday.
    So, the death *is* remembered by the passing of bread and wine on what the world calls 'Good Friday'.
    And as we know the annual anniversary of one's death does Not always fall on a Friday, just as a wedding anniversary does Not always come on Friday. Jesus' day of death is closely connected to the annual Jewish Passover, the date of Nisan 14 on the Jewish calendar as the day starts in Jerusalem.- Luke 22:19.

    Also, please note the un-named ' wise men ' were Not kings, but were magi or astrologers.
    I can't see how giving a present because of the birth of a baby is evidence of an annual birthday celebration.
     
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