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Featured Speaking in tongues! Whats the argument for and against?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by firedragon, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The Hebrew scriptures provide a very important comparison. Their transmission demonstrates that it is possible for there to be a long documentary void without any loss of accuracy or tradition. The copying process is itself sacred and hedged with safeguards.

    The reason that the long ending to Mark finds its way into the Authorised Version is because it existed in the traditional Greek text, not because it was absent. Erasmus did not draw on a tradition that excluded the long ending, but one that included it!

    When do you imagine the long ending was squeezed in? Did it happen without the knowledge of the highest authorities within the Church? What motivation do you think would incline any individual or group to insert such a scripture?
     
    #61 Redemptionsong, Jan 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  2. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    And Jesus never talked in tongues, flopping around on the floor.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Erasmus didnt have early manuscripts. They were discovered after his time.

    So provide an early manuscript.
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Why do you add, 'flopping around on the floor'?

    Actually, we don't know whether Jesus spoke in tongues or not. It would not have benefitted his audience. If he did pray to his Father in tongues then he never tells his disciples. So, we'll never know for sure.

    A couple of passages in John's Gospel give clues as to Jesus' spiritual communication.
    John 11:33. 'When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.'
    John 11:38. 'Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.'
     
  5. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You don't appear to have read my last post.

    Erasmus was not a textual critic in the modern sense. He used the materials of the Church that had been passed down through tradition. This tradition was one that was established as far back as the first century. In Acts 15, we are told about the first Council (approx. 51 CE) to be held by elders of the Christian Church. At this meeting in Jerusalem Paul and Peter thrashed out differences that existed in understanding. The outcome of that Council was as follows:
    'It seemed good unto us, being assembled of one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
    For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;'
    [things thereafter listed]

    Do you notice that the guidance given by the men at this meeting was overseen by the Holy Ghost?

    Councils such as this continued to take place on a regular basis. After the Council of Nicaea (325 CE) they were to take place every other year. It was at these Councils that issues such as heresy and scripture were discussed. Since most scholars believe the Gospel of Mark was completed somewhere in the period 66-70 CE there must have been plenty of opportunity to discuss the contents of this Gospel.

    The addition of a whole section to a chapter in (possibly) the earliest of all the Gospels would amount to a radical addition to scripture. Yet, where in the records of the Church councils does the question of its inclusion get discussed? The conclusion one can reach is that it wasn't discussed because it wasn't an issue. There was no later addition to Mark 16.



     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 14:32. 'And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
    For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.'


    1 Corinthians 14:40. 'Let all things be done decently and in order.'

    What you show here has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Erasmus did not have the manuscripts to do the criticism mate. Again.

    The rest are just preaching. So thanks for engaging. Not valid arguments with manuscript evidence.
     
  9. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    If God has something to say he says it using whatever language the audience speaks, not the gibberish of tongues that no one can understand.
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The issue is not about Erasmus, it's about the two main schools of textual criticism; those backing the Byzantine text-type and those supporting the Alexandrian variety. You clearly support the Alexandrian.

    'There are now in existence 5366 Greek manuscripts, including 170 papyrus fragments (2nd-7th century), 212 Uncial (capital letter) copies (4th - 10th century), 2,492 miniscules (small letter) copies (9th - 16th century) and 1678 Lectionary copies (service books). The overwhelming majority of these manuscripts agree so closely that they may be said to present the same Greek Text, called by some the 'Byzantine Text', because it prevailed throughout the Church in the Byzantine period AD 312-1453 (and long after).' [Dr J.E. Cullis - English Bibles. 1995]

    When the Revisers of the AV wrote their explanatory and critical commentary (1878) [The Speaker's Commentary] they approached Mark 16 with an open mind. Here is the summary provided by F.C. Cook, the Editor.
    'After a careful, and certainly a dispassionate, survey of the whole subject, we feel bound to express our entire concurrence in the opinion expressed by Dr. Scrivener, the first living scholar in questions of textual criticism, who "defends the authenticity of this long and important passage, and that without the slightest misgiving" (Introd. p.507). Such, too , is the opinion of Bishop Wordsworth and McClellan. Bleek also maintains its authenticity; see Einl. p.292, and compare the remarks of Hilgenfeld in note p.306. To Dean Burgon belongs the credit of a thorough examination of every argument which has been brought against the passage, in the course of which examination a vast mass of new and valuable materials has been brought to light. But in recording this result of enquiry, we feel equally bound to express deep regret that on either side any expressions should have been used calculated to excite feelings of antagonism. The critics, who in the early Church raised or accepted the objections to the passage, were certainly not actuated by motives derogatory to Christianity, nor did they go beyond the fair limits of criticism in examining the evidence for or against the authenticity of any portion of the received text of scripture. Among the moderns who concur in rejecting this portion are found men of highest character, not only for learning and critical acumen, but for deep, hearty reverence for the word of God; nor would the present writer have felt the slightest hesitation in adopting their conclusion, which, at the outset of the enquiry, he had himself regarded as all but certain, had he not been convinced of the unsoundness of the grounds on which it rests. It is simply a question of evidence; as it seems to the writer, the evidence of the immense majority of manuscripts, of ancient Versions, of early Fathers, and of internal structure, on the one side; on the other, of a single critic of great eminence, influenced by considerations which, in other cases, would generally be regarded as alien to scientific inquiry. The rejection might, perhaps, remove some difficulties in the exegesis of Scripture; the acceptance confirms our confidence in the general accuracy of the text of Scripture, and leaves us in undisturbed possession of facts important in their bearings upon the work of the Saviour and the destinies of His Church.'
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Being "slain in the spirit" and other assorted "flopping about on the floor" often goes with speaking in tongues in these charismatic churches.....both are equally bogus in today's world, as neither are required in our time, according to the scriptures.

    Today Christ's disciples are identified by the love they show towards their fellow Christians. (John 13:34-35) Mature Christians do not need miracles any more....needing these Paul called the "traits of a child". "Faith, hope and love" would now identify Christ's disciples. (1 Corinthians 13:11, 13)

    Jesus had no need to speak in tongues because his audience members were almost exclusively Jewish. Many spoke both Hebrew and Koine Greek. Speaking in tongues was added to the disciples after Jesus' death and resurrection and for a good reason......many Jews had come to Jerusalem for the Festival of Pentecost from foreign lands and these heard the gospel in their own language, often called "the language of the heart".

    Acts 2:5-11....
    "At that time devout Jews from every nation under heaven were staying in Jerusalem. 6 So when this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were utterly amazed and said: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·leʹans, are they not? 8 How is it, then, that each one of us is hearing his own native language? 9 Parʹthi·ans, Medes, and Eʹlam·ites, the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·taʹmi·a, Ju·deʹa and Cap·pa·doʹci·a, Ponʹtus and the province of Asia, 10 Phrygʹi·a and Pam·phylʹi·a, Egypt and the regions of Libʹy·a near Cy·reʹne, sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Creʹtans, and Arabians—we hear them speaking in our languages about the magnificent things of God.”

    These then took the message of the gospel back to their home countries, thus spreading the "good news of the Kingdom" in many more parts of the earth as Jesus said..."But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)

    If Jesus spoke to his Father in a language other than what was common in the day, the Bible does not disclose.

    I don't believe that these are an example of spiritual communication....but rather the only time that Jesus is said to have wept at seeing the grief expressed over his dear friend, Lazarus' death.

    John 11:33-39.....
    "When Jesus saw her weeping and the Jews who had come with her weeping, he groaned within himself and became troubled. 34 He said: “Where have you laid him?” They said to him: “Lord, come and see.” 35 Jesus gave way to tears. 36 At that the Jews began to say: “See, what affection he had for him!” 37 But some of them said: “Could not this man who opened the eyes of the blind man prevent this one from dying?”

    38 Then Jesus, after groaning again within himself, came to the tomb. It was, in fact, a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said: “Take the stone away.”.....and after he had said a prayer to his Father, he raised Lazarus up out of his tomb.

    The groaning was entirely human in this circumstance. He deliberately delayed coming to the home of Lazarus when he heard of his illness because he intended to demonstrate something much more amazing that a cure....he wanted to demonstrate the resurrection to all in attendance. John ch 11 is an interesting read.
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    People need to show some balance when talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit, and about counterfeit operations. Simply put, there are three possible sources of power; the Holy Spirit, psychological influence, and satanic influence. If one opts for a single explanation then there is the chance that you've ignored other realities!

    The first thing to say about the gift of Holy Spirit is that it is absolutely central to the New Testament. Jesus said he would send the Comforter, from the Father, and this is what we read about in Acts 2, at the time of Pentecost. Paul gives a more detailed account of the powers and fruits in his epistles. If one accepts Paul's writings, then it cannot be denied that the gift of Holy Spirit was in operation in the first century. Some will argue that that was when the powers (not the fruits) stopped being operable, but this does not bury the fact that the powers were in use in the building of the early Church. So, even if one rejects the gifts of the Holy Spirit as operational in modern times, there can be little doubt that there was a time when their operation was necessary.

    Billy Graham, who is remembered as an evangelist with fairly middle-of-the-road theological positions, said, 'Although there is honest disagreement among Christians about the validity of tongues today, I personally cannot find any biblical justification for saying the gift of tongues was meant exclusively for New Testament times. At the same time, it easily becomes a misunderstood and even divisive issue; the fact that Paul found it necessary to deal with it at such length in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is testimony to this. (While stressing it was the least of the gifts, Paul also devoted the most space to discussing it of any of the gifts.) Therefore, when it does occur today it must be surrounded very carefully with the biblical safeguards Paul sets forth.
    Also, while the gift of tongues may occur today as a valid spiritual gift, this does not mean every manifestation of tongues is according to the will of God and should be approved uncritically by us.'

    To argue that love (a fruit of the Spirit) is the greatest of all the spiritual qualities, does nothing to undermine the argument that powers of the Spirit are useful in dealing with situations of suffering and need.
     
    #72 Redemptionsong, Jan 27, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I know that this is an emotional topic for many people but the scriptures are plain....

    From my studies of the Bible in its entirelty, it is clear that in its infancy, the Christian congregation needed the miracles to sway the Jewish people into believing that Jesus and his apostles had the backing of God’s spirit....something that was completely lacking among their leaders.

    Jesus healed the sick, fed the multitudes and even raised the dead on a few occasions. The apostles, before gaining the gifts of the spirit after Jesus’ death and resurrection, were able to perform miracles by the use of Jesus’ name. But the speaking in tongues was not gibberish for show. It was a recognised language designed to be understood. Paul said that if there was no interpreter, then the one speaking was to remain silent.

    He also said....
    “Therefore, tongues are not a sign for the believers but for the unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for the unbelievers but for the believers.” (1 Corinthians 14:22)

    If speaking in tongues takes place among believers, then it’s purpose is lost. It’s not for show, but for the instruction of unbelievers who speak that language or for the interpreter who conveys the message. Believers have already received the message.

    And there is no doubt that it took place back then and for a reason. But Paul himself said that the gifts would cease because the infants, initially fed on the “milk” of the word, had to grow up and once they had ‘spiritual teeth’, to graduate to solid food.

    He told the Hebrew believers......

    12 For although by now*you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong. (Hebrews 5:12-14; )

    1 Corinthians 13:8..
    “But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with.”

    Because of the foretold apostasy, it was only common sense that the gifts would be withdrawn. That way, when the charlatans were operating under the power of the devil, they could be identified immediately. Satan is a mimic, and he has the power to imitate some of those gifts because he is a deceiver.....but the big one of course is the raising of the dead....he cannot mimic that one.

    Billy Graham is no one I recognize as a representative of Christ. But it is clear that he understood that there are charlatans that masquerade as disciples of Christ with these powerful manifestations.....so God in his wisdom had them removed. There is now no need to try and separate the fakes from the genuine.....because all these “gifts” manifested in our day are not genuine. Satan has deceived people into believing that they are, but when you compare today’s gifts with those of the first century, if it’s the same “Holy Spirit”, then it’s not doing the same job.

    Paul identified the source of those “wonders” calling them an “unrighteousness deception”....
    9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

    Let’s just make this clear.....they must be viewed “critically” because of all the warnings from the apostle Paul. Deception is exactly that....the ones deceived are not aware until they are brought face to face with the consequences of it....loss.

    The three identifying qualities of genuine Christianity (faith, hope and love) do not depend on external manifestations......these come from within and cannot be mimicked by the devil. Genuine demonstrations of these qualities are shown in obedience to Christ’s teachings.....all of them, not just the convenient ones. When he taught us to be “no part of the world” do we support our nation’s political conflicts and their military operations imagining that God is somehow partial to our nation? (Acts 10:34-35)

    When war was declared in the two world conflicts of last century, where were the churches? Were they taking the lead in warning their charges that Christians must “love their enemies” and pray for them? (Matthew 5:43-44)

    Paul wrote...
    "Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." (Romans 12:17-21) Is this what you see Christendom doing?
    Who is always present when wars are memorialized?....not God or his Christ.


    When Jesus told us to “Go...and make disciples of people of all nations”, (Matthew 28:19-20) have we diligently done that, making sure that our neighbors hear the message about God's Kingdom, (Matthew 24:14) not just people in far flung countries who are contacted by missionaries?

    How obedient are the church goers of the world when they pick up their "Christianity" at the door on their way into church, and leaven it there on their way out? We are to manifest our "Christianity" in everyday life 24/7, not just when we go to church out of some feeling of obligation.

    I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your viewpoint. I grew up in Christendom and its a hypocritical phony to me....a mangling of everything Jesus taught. :(
     
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Let's look again at the passage that you have quoted from Acts 2:5-11.

    You claim that the Galilean disciples who spoke at Pentecost were speaking in known languages. Is that what it says in the scriptures? Read it carefully, and you will see that it says, 'every man heard him speak in his own language'. Nowhere does it say that the disciples spoke in known languages. This confirms the view that the disciples spoke in tongues, but were heard in native languages. In other words, the language was spoken in (unknown) tongues, but the interpretation, which must have been given by God, was into the native tongues of all those present. Why else would it say in verse 13, 'Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.'

    Or, do you think the disciples repeated the same words of testimony in about ten different languages?


    One doesn't accuse people of drunkenness for speaking known languages, only for speaking unknown languages.

    So, when exactly did the manifestations of the gift of Holy Spirit cease? If we accept that they were in operation with the apostles and early Church, then the purpose must have been to assist in the propagation of the Gospel and the building up of the body of Christ. It was not solely to convince the Jews, because most were not convinced! The purpose was to demonstrate the reality of God to a lost world.


    Now let's turn to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. 'Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'

    What then is 'that which is perfect'?

    If 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 had anything to do with an abrupt end to the manifestations of the Spirit, then it seems mighty odd that in the first verse of 1 Corinthians 14 Paul should say,
    'Follow after charity (love), and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.' Doesn't it seem strange to you that Paul should be teaching the Church, which he knew would outlive him, that it is possible to combine love with spiritual powers (when properly used)? Paul wasn't saying that with love there was no longer the need for spiritual powers!

    Which scriptures support the view that the 'perfect' thing to come is the canon of scripture? Many would say it is Christ. Others say that it is the completion of the Church's work on earth, which amounts to much the same thing. Either way, the weight of evidence points to a time that has not yet been reached.

    Wishing to dismiss all of 'Christendom' on the basis of your own experience is not a balanced approach. That's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
     
    #74 Redemptionsong, Jan 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Being 'slain in the Spirit' is not, l believe, a biblical expression. But the notion of the power of the Holy Spirit felling a man, or even a group of people, is well documented. The most powerful is the testimony found in the Gospel of John (18:4-6), which says, 'Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
    They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, l am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
    As soon then as he had said unto them, l am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.'

    Do you think Jesus used his own strength to push these men backwards? Or are you willing to admit that the Holy Spirit has the power to fell a person?
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As I said...this is an emotional topic for those who think that their gifts are from God in this day and age.
    If they are not from God, the alternative is unthinkable! I understand the defensiveness. But how do you explain the failures? There were none in the first century. (Matthew 4:24) All who came to be healed were "cured". None of the gifts of the holy spirit were useless, like some are today.

    Well that is a masterpiece of justification.....you have skewed the whole story to suit your beliefs.

    A tongue is a recognized language, not gibberish. Those who came from other nations for the festival were not native speakers, so the disciples were given ability to speak in all the languages of the visitors. They were hearing the message in their own language. If you have ever traveled overseas, and don't speak the language, but in amongst the native speakers you hear someone speak English, you are naturally drawn to them. That is what I believe took place. This was a gift from God designed to spread the gospel message to all who came to Jerusalem.....they then took that message back to their home country and thus Christianity was spread as Jesus instructed..."to the most distant part of the earth". (Acts 1:8)

    The gifts ceased as Paul said they would, and for the reason he said they must. Christians had to press on to maturity, not remain stuck with miracles (milk) as their only foundation.....something satan could mimic.

    According to scripture, the gifts were only passed on by the laying on of the hands of the apostles or in their presence. Once the apostles died, there was no one to pass them on, so they gradually (not suddenly) died out, as no longer necessary.

    Paul said that "faith, hope and love" (not charity) were to be the identifying mark of true Christians. We can see the caliber of the people who still want to practice the "magic" among equally weak and easily led people. It gives credence to the snake handlers and those who just want a show of their 'power'....making people fall down as if this is something Jesus did.

    Your reference to the night Jesus was arrested says nothing about Jesus making those men fall down. He identified himself as the one they were looking for, they may well have done so out of fear as he had a reputation for performing miracles. Do you always read into scripture what is not there? He knew what he had to endure and so he offered no resistance.


    What does this verse say in Greek?
    According to Strongs, the word translated "perfect" is...
    "τέλειος téleios, tel'-i-os; from G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness:—of full age, man, perfect."

    It means that which is complete, needing nothing added. We have the complete word of God which needs nothing added.


    Paul was speaking at a time when the gifts were operative, but he foretold that they would cease because they would have accomplished their objective until the complete word of God was available to Christ's followers. Paul's letters along with those of the other apostles were widely circulated among the congregations even though there was no "Bible" in one volume as we have today. The canon was established by God, not men so the "complete" word of God is what he wanted it to be. No "church" can claim the word of God as their own work.

    We believe it has been reached, and that Christ has been 'present' and guiding the work he promised to support (Matthew 28:19-20) during the time period foretold by Daniel...."the time of the end" when his prophesies would be fully understood by those who were 'cleansed, whitened and refined' so as to accomplish the 'preaching of the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations' before the foretold "end" would come. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10; Matthew 24:14) Please tell me how Christendom has accomplished this when there is no ongoing preaching done by them, except perhaps to the converted in their rapidly diminishing churches? They are 'missing in action' when it comes to doing what Jesus commanded. Can you explain this? Jesus sent his disciples out to preach to their neighbors....initially to people who supposedly worshipped the same God.

    He said...."I am with you all the days until the end of the age"....if Christ is "with" his disciples "all the days", then why do the churches fail to obey Christ's command.....it was not a suggestion, but a vital commission that only those with his backing could accomplish.


    I see Christendom as 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'......by adopting all manner of beliefs and practices that Jesus never taught (and they do so as a whole despite their minor differences) we see a core of beliefs that are carried over into all of Christendom's churches.....belief in a triune god, placing the son in the same position as his Father (a clear breach of the first Commandment. Exodus 20:3)....belief in an immortal soul, adopted from false religious beliefs common among the Canaanites (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)....and a heavenly reward for the good people, or a hell of eternal torment for the wicked. (Matthew 28:10) None of these teachings are from Jesus.
     
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What you appear to be saying here is that you believe that any operation of the Holy Spirit (as a power) in today's Church is satanic!
    Or do you think that some gifts are operational, and others not?
    The word of wisdom
    The word of knowledge
    Faith
    The gifts of healing
    The working of miracles
    Prophecy
    The discerning of spirits
    Tongues
    The interpretation of tongues

    There is no question that Jesus healed all who came to him, but we also know that there would have been failures amongst his disciples had Jesus not been there to finish the job! For example, in Mark 4 the disciples feared the storm on Lake Galilee, and Jesus said, 'how is it that ye have no faith?' (4:40). In Mark 10, the disciples failed to cast out a demon spirit, and Jesus said, 'This kind can come out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting'. Failures were experienced by disciples then, as they are now. But this should not stop the Church using these powers to deal with suffering and need. And surely, we cannot say that the world is no longer experiencing suffering and need?

    Did Jesus show love in his ministry? Of course. Did Jesus also use the power of the Holy Spirit to bring about healing and miracles? Of course.

    Why would Jesus instruct his disciples to do these things if the power was going to suddenly, and without reason, disappear?

    What the Church should be learning more about is FAITH alongside love!
     
    #77 Redemptionsong, Jan 29, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
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