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Spare the rod, spoil the child?????????????

pearl

Well-Known Member
I was unaware that physical punishment was still a thing in schools and continues to be debated.
I find the public humiliation of a student, especially those of special needs, to be uncalled for.
And it raises another question for me; how advisable for children with special needs to be
in the regular classes. I understand the need for belonging and acceptance, but, unless the school
budget allows for a number of teacher aids, his/her time is taken up addressing the 'special needs'
of these children.
God's word is higher than all the experts
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Here's why I never allowed my kids to be corporally punished in school: So I'm going to sign off for someone who DOES NOT LOVE MY KIDS to beat them with a board? I don't think so - if I beat my kids with a board, I should be reported. And I love them, which is more than I can say for any teacher.
 

kadzbiz

Guru
Don't dare touch my kid. My kids aren't spoiled at all and are very responsible people. My wife and I gave a little smack on the odd occasion to reinforce a dangerous act or very inappropriate behaviour, but for our eldest, who is on the autistic spectrum, it didn't work anyway. We used other tactics to get her to realise her behaviour.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
It's possibly mostly the religious who will not accept the evidence that such punishments do not really help and often do cause harm to children. We have gotten rid of such punishments in schools here in the UK (much prevalent and experienced in my time at school) but we still allow spanking in homes, unlike so many other European countries.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I was unaware that physical punishment was still a thing in schools and continues to be debated.
I find the public humiliation of a student, especially those of special needs, to be uncalled for.
And it raises another question for me; how advisable for children with special needs to be
in the regular classes. I understand the need for belonging and acceptance, but, unless the school
budget allows for a number of teacher aids, his/her time is taken up addressing the 'special needs'
of these children.
God's word is higher than all the experts
The Oklahoma lawmaker should not take for granted that they are making honest objections, and also he should be able to produce some scripture that shows they are being extreme. An Oklahoma rep should know some scripture. He could embarrass these objectors with little effort, as they are doing to him. I doubt they are honest. They are merely part of a pecking order and are trying to push him down a rung.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
It's possibly mostly the religious who will not accept the evidence that such punishments do not really help and often do cause harm to children. We have gotten rid of such punishments in schools here in the UK (much prevalent and experienced in my time at school) but we still allow spanking in homes, unlike so many other European countries.
Back in my day, my pop would get out the ol' belt and we would get thirty lashings for spilling the milk. We'd earn a full bar of soap as an appetizer if any of us said a cuss word at the dinner table. Oh yes, I remember chewing on that ol' soap bar while being locked away in the attic overnight for saying The Lord's name in vain.

And I came out fine, look at me!


- An abusive Catholic parent
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Back in my day, my pop would get out the ol' belt and we would get thirty lashings for spilling the milk. We'd earn a full bar of soap as an appetizer if any of us said a cuss word at the dinner table. Oh yes, I remember chewing on that ol' soap bar while being locked away in the attic overnight for saying The Lord's name in vain.

And I came out fine, look at me!


- An abusive Catholic parent
Quite. I don't know why so many will not accept the evidence, apart from examples like him (and myself) - and perhaps seen as such - in that I experienced a lot of punishments in school (although none at home) and apparently came out OK. In my case I just accepted the punishments as risks and was not really that bad - just annoying no doubt. But the evidence tends to contradict individual anecdotal experiences.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
You know the saying I think.

Build a better mousetrap.

Develop a superior ev, keep it affordable, and I'll drop fossil vehicles like a hot potato.

I was unaware that physical punishment was still a thing in schools and continues to be debated.
I find the public humiliation of a student, especially those of special needs, to be uncalled for.
And it raises another question for me; how advisable for children with special needs to be
in the regular classes. I understand the need for belonging and acceptance, but, unless the school
budget allows for a number of teacher aids, his/her time is taken up addressing the 'special needs'
of these children.
God's word is higher than all the experts
In my experience, all children do not benefit by physical punishment, at home or in school. One size does not fit all. However, there are some children who can benefit by controlled physical stimulus, if done in a rationally consistent manner. You set the rules and define the consequences so everyone knows reliable cause and affect.

For example, say you have a child with a very small attention span. They tends to act out and/or react on impulse. Since that child is changing their focus, often and fast, you will need a fast discipline procedure, that can be implemented to act within the small time frame of their focus. The quick slap; shock, is time proven way to help. A quick slap can be accomplished in a split second, while the child are in focus; allowing them to associate real time cause and affect. The time out approach can become too long, if their focus is going in and out. They may internally try to figure out, which focal point, out of many, is the problem?

The extra benefit of quick and direct assignment of focal cause and affect, is it does not waste all the teacher's time on a few problem children, due to techniques that often miss fast moving targets. This does an injustice to the rest of the students, who now lose their allotted instruction time. This change of discipline approach could explain lowering test scores. All children are important, and if the brats get all the attention, the lesson to the rest of the students, is to become more like brat, so you can get special treatment. One may end up with a classroom of chaos. This result is a form of psychological child abuse.

One observation, from political discussions with the Left Wing of culture, is this side of the political spectrum has more special needs; need fads, that they think overrides everyone else, with a Big Brother urgency. The drugs and the time out, did not do a good job, other than create a superficial bandaid. The impulsive behavior is now part of the adults. Your experts are fools.

On the other hand, if you have children who have self control, who can see cause and affect and focus for hours on their hobbies and projects, they do not need split second slap reinforcement. The slap can be very counter productive since it actually destroys their long term concentration and focus, with an anticipated fear, that may not even have a casual pattern. This is the down side of the slap. You need to tailor to both student types.

Micro managing children who have good focus, for example, can be detrimental to these healthy children. Now the adult, with the attention disorder, is leading the child who does not have it. That teacher may need the slap, since they can't help narrowing their focus onto minutia, away from the longer term picture needed for research. This type of teacher will have a harder time implementing a longer term approach of tailored slap discipline, in a rational way. That type of teacher may have missed slap therapy, as a child, and becomes abusive as an adult, thereby giving slaps a bad name. They may slap on impulse; bad day, all without logical reason.
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Quite. I don't know why so many will not accept the evidence, apart from examples like him (and myself) - and perhaps seen as such - in that I experienced a lot of punishments in school (although none at home) and apparently came out OK. In my case I just accepted the punishments as risks and was not really that bad - just annoying no doubt. But the evidence tends to contradict individual anecdotal experiences.
Well, in my joke example, the fact that he grew up to become an abusive Catholic parent was a sign that he didn't turn out fine. I'm not the best at getting my point across in jokes.

Abuse can have many repercussions: the individual might grow up to be abusive themselves with strict standards and harsh punishments for their own children (or anyone they have authority over) for not meeting those standards. The individual might grow up to be fearful and anxious about breaking strict standards engraved in them by harsh childhood punishments. The individual might turn out fine depending on other factors such as a better support system outside of home.

Spoiling children can have just as many repercussions. There must be a balance. Punishment is necessary, physical punishment is not.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was unaware that physical punishment was still a thing in schools and continues to be debated.
I find the public humiliation of a student, especially those of special needs, to be uncalled for.
And it raises another question for me; how advisable for children with special needs to be
in the regular classes. I understand the need for belonging and acceptance, but, unless the school
budget allows for a number of teacher aids, his/her time is taken up addressing the 'special needs'
of these children.
Special needs, sounds to me like they have special need. Which indicates that they should be set apart for special care.
There are schools designed for this purpose, with teachers who are trained specifically for this purpose, to attend to these children specifically.
I don't know if that system exists in the US, but I think it should.

With regard to God's word, and what it say, many, including myself, are thankful for the discipline we received from our parents.
Of course we did not like being beaten with the rod. We did not like a lot of things... even being told to "go to bed", "eat your vegetables", etc. ...but when we saw the rod... boy, that made a difference. We complied.

What a difference that made in our life.
We were more disciplined, more respectful, and obedient.
Our parents refusal to spare the rod helped. It works in harmony with its purpose.

Of course, like everything else, there are extremes.
For example, nothing is wrong with driving a car. One can make the journey to a destination safely.
On the other hand, some go to an extreme, "gassing it". Oftentimes they don't make their destination safely. They also prevent some poor soul, making their destination.

It's similar with disciplining. Some are balanced - the correct way. Some go to an extreme, and abuse, causing harm to the child, and others, who are affected by the child's reaction.
Some take the other extreme, and don't discipline their children at all, causing the child,, and the public, harm, and causing themselves embarrassment and shame.
How so?


Then when they grow up...
Crimes committed by kids on the rise as expert warns harsher consequences needed: 'The penalties aren't scary'
Violent crime in America spiked during pandemic and some of the most brazen acts have involved underage offenders

From experience, I have seen both cause and effect. (The world today often don't, until years after, when they look back and ask, 'How did we get here'. Then they try working toward a solution, which goes nowhere. Remember the plastic crisis. Where are we now?) Nowhere. Plastic pollution is growing relentlessly as waste management and recycling fall short, says OECD

In my everyday life, which involves meeting all kinds of people, and having a conversation with them, I can say that for those who were corrected with the rod, in a balanced way, rather than one extreme or the other, the Bible's words are true. "Spare the rod.... spoil the child."
Proverbs 23:13, 14; Proverbs 13:24; Proverbs 22:15
Of course, the use of the rod, is not always in a literal way. This too is being balanced.
Like the shepherd that uses his staff to steer the sheep, loving parents may use the rod of authority in directing their children to be respectful.

This is my experience.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
That's why the Bible should never be used as moral guide or as justification for any action.
The misuse of the Bible should never be used period.
That is what is happening here. Nothing is wrong with the Bible. It's those not understanding it, that's the problem.
For example, disciplining children is the parent's responsibility. Not teachers.

fathers, do not be irritating your children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and admonition of Jehovah. Ephesians 6:4
You fathers, do not be exasperating your children, so that they do not become downhearted. Colossians 3:21
These words that I am commanding you today must be on your heart, and you must inculcate them in your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. Deuteronomy 6:6, 7
Train a boy* in the way he should go; Even when he grows old he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6
 

Ella S.

Gothic Stoic
If you think that's bad, look into "restraint and seclusion." There are many places (in the US, at least) where students in special education are subject to being body-slammed, man-handled, locked in closets, and even shocked by tasers. Some of them have even been killed in the process.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
If you think that's bad, look into "restraint and seclusion." There are many places (in the US, at least) where students in special education are subject to being body-slammed, man-handled, locked in closets, and even shocked by tasers. Some of them have even been killed in the process.
The world is a cruel place.
Most doubt the reason we give for that, but that's okay. Those who have eyes to see, will see.
 

Ella S.

Gothic Stoic
The world is a cruel place.
Most doubt the reason we give for that, but that's okay. Those who have eyes to see, will see.
And those who have minds to think will find the rational analysis of empirical evidence the most reliable method for approximating truth. They will learn that not everything their eyes see is what it appears to be upon further investigation.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Well, in my joke example, the fact that he grew up to become an abusive Catholic parent was a sign that he didn't turn out fine. I'm not the best at getting my point across in jokes.

Abuse can have many repercussions: the individual might grow up to be abusive themselves with strict standards and harsh punishments for their own children (or anyone they have authority over) for not meeting those standards. The individual might grow up to be fearful and anxious about breaking strict standards engraved in them by harsh childhood punishments. The individual might turn out fine depending on other factors such as a better support system outside of home.

Spoiling children can have just as many repercussions. There must be a balance. Punishment is necessary, physical punishment is not.
I actually thought the last line '-an abusive Catholic parent' was sarcasm.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
And those who have minds to think will find the rational analysis of empirical evidence the most reliable method for approximating truth. They will learn that not everything their eyes see is what it appears to be upon further investigation.
I have seen it all. I saw when they were for capital punishment, then against capital punishment... then for capital punishment, then against capital punishment.
I saw when they were for and against child discipline, in the same seasaw manner.
I've seen it all.
I know why mankind will always have these issues, and why the so called empirical evidence will backfire repeatedly... as we see... repeatedly.
So, again. Those with eyes to see, will see.
We live in a world where the blind leads the blind. The pit is just ahead.
 
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