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Featured Southern Baptist V JW's debate on Hell

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Sep 24, 2018.

  1. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    Haha, JWTalk. Too funny. Nope, not according to any reliable polls. They lost membership in Canada, Europe and Australia for the last two years even according to their own yearbook. Nowhere has significant gains to counteract the losses. The child sex abuse scandal is expected to further decrease numbers as it did in Aus in 2015.

    And Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, hands down.
    Growth of religion - Wikipedia
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus told us to be "no part of the world" in all the ways that represent the devil's control over it. Think of the ways that he has people supporting the "world" that is "in the power of the wicked one" and then ask yourself how that impacts on a Christian's life?

    One of the prime ways that satan is in control of this world's affairs is through the political entities that govern the various nations. He betrayed this information when he tempted Christ by offering him "all the kingdoms of the world" in exchange for "one act of worship". If satan wasn't controlling them, then there was no real temptation, and Jesus did not deny that they were his to give, just as he said. (Luke 4:5-8)

    Having a part in that governance or supporting the ones that do, to us means supporting the devil's rulership. We butt out, having nothing to do with who rules, or what laws are made or enforced. We are told to be law-abiding citizens of whatever nation we reside in, but not to be part of any political agenda....especially the ones that promote bloodshed. No government should ever have to fear an uprising from any Christian. We should be totally neutral in these matters. We will obey all the laws.....except where a government demands that we break God's laws. There can be no compromise on those issues. (Acts 5:29) Like forcing military service or voting in political elections.

    Having said that, we still have to be "part of the world" in that we must earn a living and participate in other ways that are just a normal part of living "in" the world, but not being "part" of the things that the devil uses to control his world. There is a line of demarcation.

    If we are employed, then we pay our taxes honestly, and have earned the right to all of the things that governments supply to all their citizens....roads, hospitals, government pensions etc.
    All we have to do is look at the way Jesus conducted himself, carefully avoiding political issues but using donated money to finance his ministry....not an abundance, but just enough to cover expenses. He was not a fanatic, but knew where the line was. His modest approach to these things gives us good guidelines IMO. He recommended spiritual prosperity, not chasing after material things that can all be lost in a few moments, through flood or fire or earthquake...

    If you think back to the feeding of thousands of people that Jesus did miraculously, he never once performed those sort of miracles for his apostles or other believers. Only unbelievers were the recipients of his miracles. He never supernaturally produced food for his apostles when they were engaged in their preaching ministry. God's power was never used selfishly. They never healed believers either. Even the apostle Paul, who raised a young boy from the dead, recommended that Timothy use a little wine for his stomach upsets and frequent cases of sickness. (1 Timothy 5:23)

    People often read scripture with a cursory glance instead of meditating on what they read in any depth. Its amazing what you can find out, and what alters your whole way of thinking about something you thought you knew.
     
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, not “JWTalk”......ABC News. Did you not watch it?
     
  4. ADigitalArtist

    ADigitalArtist Well-Known Member
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    Ditto.
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Apparently your taxes are going to support a government that has facilitated the death of 30 million babies, apparently because you haven't voted them out of office. I am thinking the Amish are the only ones who come close to being apart from the world, but they have fallen short.

    As for Paul, some guy fell out of a window, got knocked out, and Paul comes along and the guy regains consciousness. Now you have a miracle.

    As for no miracles for the apostles, they healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons, etc.. What you think the people won't offer them room, board and support to have them stick around?

    As for control of the people, look to the daughters of Babylon, who sits on the beast. As for the end of he age, Revelation 16:13-16, look to the kings/leaders who have been led by the demon spirit of the beast, the false prophet, and the devil. Those leaders would include media which is owned by the richest men on earth. Church leaders as whole. simply lead the "many" to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13) by way of the false prophet (Matthew 7:15).
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am thinking of the Jews who paid taxes to Rome......I guess their money was spent in ways they did not approve either and yet Jesus said to "pay Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God". There it is...

    We have no control over the way tax money is spent....that is entirely on the heads of those who are doing the spending. No amount of voting will eliminate corruption from government....any government. Hasn't history already proven that beyond a shadow of doubt? Are you the eternal optimist who believes that human governments are really there for the good of all people? Ask the struggling poor of any nation how well their governments care for them? Yet no expense is spared when it comes to sport, or to give pay rises to already rich politicians. I think we all understand how unjust government spending can be. Can we do anything about it? No one ever has thus far. This is why we wait for Jesus to take over rulership of this whole world. Only he has the power to change the system for the better.

    You forget that it is God's word that says the boy had died. Do I believe you or God? What do you think? No contest, sorry.

    Of course they did...who said otherwise? Expecting "room, board and support" had nothing to do with their miracles however.....Jews were under obligation to offer hospitality to fellow Jews who were strangers. These they viewed as spiritual "family" and knew that if they were travelling, a fellow Jew would offer them food and lodging, even clothing if needed. It was only when the tide against Jesus and his disciples turned ugly that such hospitality was withdrawn.

    As for the rest of your post, I have a rather different view.
     
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  7. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I have a hard time understanding this need of Witnesses to constantly compare themselves to others. The Watchtower needs to grow up, spiritually, and stop the constant, incessant comparisons. Vanity and boasting are not fruits of the Spirit.

    The question is bizarre but I'll answer anyways.

    If you were about to kill someone I would make attempt, if I were able, to use the least possible force to stop you.

    Honestly, "professed Christian groups" have found many ways to kill...like allowing others to kill when they could have stopped them, or through unscriptural anti-vaccination, transplant, and blood policies.

    Read the Old Testament and then read Revelation. Do you define love the way it is defined there?
     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    So if Satan offers him "all the kingdoms of the world" in exchange for "one act of worship", and Jesus falls for it and Satan says: "Sorry, I lied!"
    ...there was no "real temptation"???
    Look, this may have been the "official" response published in a WT magazine but I have a lot of difficulty thinking you actually believe it.

    When Satan spoke to Jesus he didn't switch to English, Greek, French or anything else. He didn't get a sudden streak of honesty. He was lying, just as he always does and he was speaking his native language, just as he always has.

    IMO, the only reason Watchtower shouts "truth" when Satan speaks is to hide another untruth... You must have Satan running the governments here in order to shore up your interpretation of John 12:31.
     
  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You didn't answer my questions. (Even twisted the substance of one of them.) That's ok. I sort of figured that would happen.
     
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    So, you're implying Jesus wouldn't know the truth, that he could be fooled?
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    So what are you saying? You think that the devil was not after a bigger scalp than what he already had in Adam? He had caused two perfect humans to disobey their God, and to separate them from him by appealing to selfish interests....so tempting Jesus, as a human being with free will, would have really made his day. In all three temptations though, not once did Jesus flinch, but responded by saying "IT IS WRITTEN".....you know...in the Bible.

    If it wasn't a real temptation, why would he bother? Why would he let satan get away with a claim like that, when he didn't let the Pharisees get away with any of theirs? 1 John 5:19 tells us that "the whole world" is under the devil's control....and you want to dispute that? Why? To justify your church's political involvement?

    You never cease to amaze me.....its in the Bible.....not the Watchtower. We study the Bible...the Watchtower is a study aid, something that helps people to understand the Bible.....not something we equate with scripture.

    Your chosen faith teaches you your understanding of scripture, does it not? Why would you expect ours not to? What we accept as truth is entirely up to us. So your choice of understanding is not ours, and never the twain shall meet apparently.....so be it. We get it...you don't like what we teach....we don't like your slant on things either. To each his own....we stand or fall based on what, and who we believe.

    What has his language got to do with anything? You think that every word that comes out of his mouth has to be lies? How on earth would he get away with pretending to be "an angel of light" if he was just a malicious liar? Liars get better results by twisting the truth as satan demonstrated with the three temptations he gave to Jesus. Each time he used something that was close to Jesus as a man...and each time he got a Bible principle thrown back at him.

    So 1 John 5:19 isn't good enough...John 12:31 is about who then? What about John 14:30 or John 16:11? Who is the "ruler" of this world who has to be cast out...who had no hold on Jesus...and who had been judged?

    Ephesians 6:11-12...What did Paul say?
    "Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."

    Who is behind the rulers and world forces of this darkness? Not flesh and blood....but the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. That is a Bible teaching.....not just something out of the Watchtower....you don't know your Bible very well, do you?

    Every time you do this, you end up with egg on your face. You attempt to tear us down, but only end up displaying your own ignorance. Why do you bother?
     
    #71 Deeje, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I think the serpent went after Adam's weak spot, Eve. And the lie was you "surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:3). The present message of the son of hell, the false prophet, is the same message, in a new package. It is we shall not die, but be turned from corruptible, to incorruptible. It is the message of the daughters of Babylon, the false gospel of grace. The result is "destruction" (Matthew 7:13).
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The victim, laying in the ditch, saved by the good Samaritan might have another view. And the disciples had every reason to think they would be taken care of, because Yeshua said for the first run, do not take purse or extra clothes, or extra sandals (Luke 10:4). Actually, anyone who sells their possessions and gives to the poor, and follows me, have every reason to feel they will be taken care of by God himself.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Of course he did. Adam was his main target all along. But as one educated by God for some time before he was given a mate, it was Adam's job to educate his new wife. He obviously imparted the most important things first...."don't eat the fruit of that tree because it belongs to God and if we even touch it, we will die".....

    The devil targeted the woman 1) because she was the newest and least educated and experienced of the two...and she was alone. And 2) if the devil had approached Adam directly, he would more than likely have rebuffed the offer.
    Because Adam was so emotionally attached to his wife, he was forced to choose between loyalty to her and loyalty to his Creator. He chose badly.

    There was buck passing when God confronted them about what had happened....she blamed the serpent.....he blamed the woman....and then blamed God for giving her to him.

    There was no remorse ever expressed for what they did. Nor did they ever offer a sacrifice to God in apology. They were not forgivable because there was no basis upon which to forgive them. Their decision was wilful and deliberate with no defect of sin affecting their decisions. Both had disobeyed, but for different reasons....both motivated by self-interest. Neither were upholding God's rightful sovereignty over them, nor respecting what rightfully belonged to him when he had already generously given them so much.

    This is very twisted IMO. Paul (if that is who you are referring to) was not a false prophet or else God has no control over the content of his own word. Paul contributed more to Christian scripture than any other. If his words are false, then how do we trust any of it? Either it's all God's word...or none of it is. By what authority do we pick and choose?

    The apostle John and others also backed up what Paul taught. None of the apostles were "sons of hell" since there is no such place mentioned in the Bible. Jesus mentioned "Gehenna" which is not "hell".

    The message of the "daughters of Babylon" is just a continuation of what was introduced by Roman Catholicism......the mother church. Christendom is the most reprehensible part of "Babylon the great" (which we believe is a world empire of false religion) under various guises but set up using the ideas of false worship first manifested in ancient Babylon under its founder, Nimrod.

    We are all in the process of separation as this present system nears its end. All will be found on one of two roads...one leads to life and one leads to death. There are only "sheep and goats". There is no in between place to sit, undecided. Our individual choices will determine our individual future. It's not a matter of what label we wear, but how we live our lives day to day....and what personal relationship we have with God facilitated through his mediator. God knows those who belong to him.....but sometimes we can fool ourselves about how we view ourselves in that relationship. (Matthew 7:21-23)
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You do understand why Jesus made the hated Samaritan the hero of the story though, don't you?

    Exactly. Jewish hospitality was counted on to provide their needs. When that hospitality was withdrawn, Jesus told them to take their own provisions.

    Indeed, which is confirmed in my own brotherhood. We pool our resources to care for our brothers in need when disasters strike or when illness leaves families struggling. We look out for each other as "family" should. But God takes care of our needs, not our wants. Our spiritual needs take precedence over the physical ones and we appreciate why. God will not prevent bad things from happening to us, but he will strengthen us to cope with whatever is used against us by the devil and his accomplices. Not even death will separate us from our Father. (Romans 8:31-39)
     
  16. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how you got that out of my comment. You claimed if the kingdoms of the world were not Satan's to give he could not have tempted Jesus with them. Your assertion is obviously false. People tempt people with things they don't have all the time.

    Ever get an email promising to transfer $37,000,000 dollars to your bank account? Do you really think someone must have $37,000,000 in order to tempt you? All you have to do is send in a mere $3700.00 to cover "handling and transfer fees" and the money is yours! And all Jesus had to do was worship Satan and he could fix the world.

    You never cease to amaze me...its in the Watchtower...not the Bible. You study the Watchtower...the bible is a study aid, something that helps Witnesses understand the Watchtower...something the Watchtower equates with scripture.

    "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370​

    When God speaks it is scripture. And according to your publications, he only speaks through them:

    "Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah's organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God's holy spirit or active force. (Zech. 4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book.". Watchtower 1973 July 1, p. 402
    I don't see anyone disagreeing, but this is a debate forum. :)

    Give the Watchtower a chance Deeje. What they believe today is not necessarily what they believed yesterday, and what they believe tomorrow won't necessarily be what they believe today.

    With such constant changes and upheavals in doctrine, who knows? You may believe a lot more of what "Christendom" believes a year from now, and you'll wonder how you could have possibly believed anything different.



    Why do you look for truth in the words of a liar? You wanted to know what language has to do with it. Here it is:

    “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” John 8:44

    When Jesus spoke about Satan's native language, you could have been the first to tell him:

    I'm sure Jesus would have understood your point. :rolleyes:

    Satan rules the hearts and minds of those not in Christ. He does not rule the political governments of earth. The world refers to those in opposition to God. The bible never teaches that Satan actually rules over the entire world, but only that he is the leader of those in opposition to God.

    Look, here are a few verses that DO tell us who's running things:

    By My great power and outstretched arm, I made the earth and the men and beasts on the face of it, and I give it to whom I please. Jeremiah 27:5

    Question: Who is speaking here? Is it Satan?

    Let's try another:

    Behold, to the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, and the earth and everything in it. Deuteronomy 10:14

    Which Lord and God does this verse refer to? Is it Satan?

    One more, just so we're good:

    Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. (Romans 13:1)​

    Obviously if the authorities that exist have been appointed by God, then at some point God Himself must have appointed Satan if what you and Satan say is true. When do you think that happened?

    .So yes, Satan's words were enough to fool Jehovah Witnesses into thinking he actually was being truthful, and that he actually could deliver on his promise. But they certainly weren't enough to fool Jesus.

    Is this another Oeste from a parallel universe?

    You started this thread, not me. And then, armed with your Watchtower, you attempt a theological argument with Southern Baptists! :confused:

    Besides, the Watchtower is clearly able to tear itself down without help from anyone. They constantly change their "truth" one issue to the next, even suggesting their "anointed"..the ones supposedly charged with distributing spiritual food for the last 150 years...may have mental or emotional problems. (see Watchtower Jan 2016 p. 25 & 26).
     
  17. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I'm implying exactly what I stated. You don't really need a bridge to sell a toll booth.
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You kind of miss the point of the story of the good Samaritan. Your neighbor, which is the one you are to love as yourself, is with regard to the stranger. Your physical condition is a sign of your spiritual condition. Israel was promised health in exchange for keeping the Law of God. On the other hand, one is promised the plagues of the daughters of Babylon, if one remains in them (Revelation 18:4).
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The unclean demon spirit of the devil/Satan will rule "all the kings/leaders of the whole world" (Revelation 16:12-16). This would be with respect to the nations which are gathered against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3), and brought to the valley of judgment (Joel 3:2) & (Revelation 16:16). There were 120 nations which were gathered to Paris in January 2017 to condemn Israel. Keep in mind that the demon spirit of the dead false prophet and the beast were also involved. (Revelation 16:13).
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    If you had read and believed the prophets, you would know that God had chosen Judas Iscariot beforehand (Zechariah 11:12-13). At the same time (Zechariah 11), he had prophesied the choosing of Paul, the "staff" called "Favor" (Zechariah 11:10), and Peter, the worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:16-17), who would leave the flock, and not feed, care for, or heal the sheep. Yeshua foretold that the "enemy" would plant tare seed in the same field as the "good seed" (Matthew 13), and that the disciples were to leave the tares alone until the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:30). John never stood up for Paul, he was simply forbidden to gather him out. You are confusing the testimony of Paul and his friends with that of John. As for what authority to use, that would be the anointing of God, not man (1 John 2:27). Peter and Paul were chosen to pasture the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7).
     
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