Southern Baptist V JW's debate on Hell

[Shadow Wolf]

There is not one verse that says so. Inference is not proof because I can infer a lot about a lot of things without proving any of it. You can believe the inference, but would you like it used in a court of law against you?

A court of law would be hard pressed to come to any conclusion because pretty much all Conservative churches insist only they have it right, and they all have their passages and inference and "knowing through the spirit of the Lord" that they throw at each other. Many of them even contradict each other. But, ultimately none of them can definitively "out prove" each other.

 

[Deeje]

A court of law would be hard pressed to come to any conclusion because pretty much all Conservative churches insist only they have it right, and they all have their passages and inference and "knowing through the spirit of the Lord" that they throw at each other. Many of them even contradict each other. But, ultimately none of them can definitively "out prove" each other.

How did Jesus teach us to tell the difference?
He said "by their friuits" you would see who was living up to God's requirements, and who were only picking and choosing what to practice and what to ignore.

How does the SBC follow what Jesus taught?

Give me specifics.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How did Jesus teach us to tell the difference?
He said "by their friuits" you would see who was living up to God's requirements, and who were only picking and choosing what to practice and what to ignore.

How does the SBC follow what Jesus taught?

Give me specifics.

They say, more or less, word for word, that exact same thing.

 

[Deeje]

They say, more or less, word for word, that exact same thing.

You give me specifics for the SBC and I will give you specifics for how JW's see their obligations to Jesus' teachings....

 

[Hockeycowboy]

A court of law would be hard pressed to come to any conclusion because pretty much all Conservative churches insist only they have it right, and they all have their passages and inference and "knowing through the spirit of the Lord" that they throw at each other. Many of them even contradict each other. But, ultimately none of them can definitively "out prove" each other.

John 13:35. But how can Christendom show real ‘love for their brother’, when they support their national brotherhood over their spiritual brotherhood during times of conflict?

(Do you think that matters? Amazing how many overlook it.)

It matters! 1 John 3:10-15

 

[Shadow Wolf]

John 13:35. But how can Christendom show real ‘love for their brother’, when they support their national brotherhood over their spiritual brotherhood during times of conflict?

(Do you think that matters? Amazing how many overlook it.)

It matters! 1 John 3:10-15

Baptists don't. They may not practice a blanket ban on voting, the act is questioned and some don't because it is being of this world. They also question if it's ok to swear on the Bible or not in court, because the Bible doesn't belong to them but rather to God. Some of them even literally have a closet for praying in.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Baptists don't. They may not practice a blanket ban on voting, the act is questioned and some don't because it is being of this world. They also question if it's ok to swear on the Bible or not in court, because the Bible doesn't belong to them but rather to God. Some of them even literally have a closet for praying in.

I was speaking of warfare....killing others. (I mean, not voting because it is viewed as “being of this world” is an issue... but killing other human beings is in a category by itself! Whereas not voting probably will not incur the wrath of countries — some maybe — refusing to fight certainly will!)
And I wasn’t really talking with regard to individuals... I was referring to the Organization they belong to, as a whole. What it supports.

Following Christ seems to go out the window, during times of conflict.

 

[Deeje]

Baptists don't. They may not practice a blanket ban on voting, the act is questioned and some don't because it is being of this world. They also question if it's ok to swear on the Bible or not in court, because the Bible doesn't belong to them but rather to God. Some of them even literally have a closet for praying in.

This is a good start SW. So you are telling me that Southern Baptists do not join the military or engage in politically motivated bloodshed ?

JW's, as you know will not take up weapons to harm anyone...not even an enemy. (Matthew 5:43-45)

We cannot even join the military because it requires training to kill human beings. We do not carry weapons because Jesus said if we lived by the sword (gun) we would die by the sword (gun)

If some Baptists still vote in the political arena, how then is that not hypocritical? Does the church not have a clear teaching on this issue? Being "no part" of this world allows for no participation in its government. If we vote for a certain person or party, then we share responsibility for what they do in office.

Being politically neutral is what Jesus demonstrated. We should be law abiding but not take that to where we would break God's law to obey human laws. (Acts 5:29)

Taking an oath in court and swearing on a Bible means nothing if the person taking the oath is not a Christian. So the act itself and saying "so help me God" makes no difference to a person telling the truth, does it. What do you think?

How do you feel about praying in a closet? The scriptural basis for this is obviously Matthew 6:5-6....

5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you." (NASB)

Is this really telling people to put themselves in a closet to pray?
Or is this simply contrasting the pious show of the Pharisees with the humble requests of someone wanting to personally communicate with their God in private?

JW's pray in private without repetitive words because communication comes from the heart. Sometimes the heart speaks louder than words do. (Romans 8:26-27) We are also told to take our petitions to God along with thanksgiving. (Philippians 4:6) So it is appropriate to balance requests with things to be grateful for.

We also have public prayer where a person will lead the congregation or a group in prayer as Jesus did. (Matthew 26:26-27)

 

[2ndpillar]

Baptists don't. They may not practice a blanket ban on voting, the act is questioned and some don't because it is being of this world. They also question if it's ok to swear on the Bible or not in court, because the Bible doesn't belong to them but rather to God. Some of them even literally have a closet for praying in.

Seems kind of hypocritical. The Baptist I know, go to work and get paid with government/world approved currency. They drive government/world approved cars on government built highways. They receive government social security payments. Their water and lights are government/world regulated. Their food is government/world tested. It seems that they should become Amish if they are trying to live apart from the world. But then again, the Amish use government roads, and use government money. As for the courts, as far as I know, they give one the option to swear or affirm. But then again, you have to have hypocrites in order for the "evil slave" to have somewhere to go to (Matthew 24:51).

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I would take one veteran SBC unloading the truck at a food bank over ten JWs patting themselves on the back and writing in their logs how many Watchtower magazines they left there while nobody was looking.

 

[Shad]

I would take one veteran SBC unloading the truck at a food bank over ten JWs patting themselves on the back and writing in their logs how many Watchtower magazines they left there while nobody was looking.

I was looking! It was one per door

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Seems kind of hypocritical. The Baptist I know, go to work and get paid with government/world approved currency. They drive government/world approved cars on government built highways. They receive government social security payments. Their water and lights are government/world regulated. Their food is government/world tested. It seems that they should become Amish if they are trying to live apart from the world. But then again, the Amish use government roads, and use government money. As for the courts, as far as I know, they give one the option to swear or affirm. But then again, you have to have hypocrites in order for the "evil slave" to have somewhere to go to (Matthew 24:51).

Not my care or concern anymore. This whole debate hinges on how each denomination throws out a handful of verses to support their interpretation and why they and they alone are right and everybody else is wrong, to the point of saying those who aren't a part of their denomination aren't "real Christians." (or "worshiping Jehovah," as was used prior).
And it's almost embarrassing to debate the point from an old perspective of "nuh-uh, I'm right." "huh-uh, your wrong and I'm right." "No, it says here you're wrong." "But it says here I'm right." Add in a paper being nailed to a door, a king wanting to divorce and executed his wives, Puritans, and a couple "great revivals/awakenings" and you have the whole of church history summed up in a nut shell as to why there have been so many schisms into so many denominations.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Not my care or concern anymore. This whole debate hinges on how each denomination throws out a handful of verses to support their interpretation and why they and they alone are right and everybody else is wrong, to the point of saying those who aren't a part of their denomination aren't "real Christians." (or "worshiping Jehovah," as was used prior).
And it's almost embarrassing to debate the point from an old perspective of "nuh-uh, I'm right." "huh-uh, your wrong and I'm right." "No, it says here you're wrong." "But it says here I'm right." Add in a paper being nailed to a door, a king wanting to divorce and executed his wives, Puritans, and a couple "great revivals/awakenings" and you have the whole of church history summed up in a nut shell as to why there have been so many schisms into so many denominations.

That’s why Jesus said to “look at their fruitage” - Matthew 7 - not necessarily what they teach (since there are so many.)
So inform me...where does Christ tell his followers to kill their brothers?

There must be a Scripture for that, huh?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That’s why Jesus said to “look at their fruitage” - Matthew 7 - not necessarily what they teach (since there are so many.)
So inform me...where does Christ tell his followers to kill their brothers?

That's already been brought up.
As for killing, Luke 19 presents a parable that features a character that bears stark resemblance to Christ. And has certainly been used to justify slaying "those who don't want Christ to reign over them." Which brings into question given Jesus' parables often portrayed characters who exhibit characteristics he approved of, such as the Good Samaritan, how do you know which parables to act out and which ones, if any, do you not act out? Are Christians supposed to literally hate their family members to follow Christ, or is that just one of those metaphors? The parable of Pearls and Hidden Treasure reflects upon Jesus' teaching to sell all your stuff and give the money to the poor (as the merchant found one good pearl and sold the rest). But do you literally pluck your eye out when it offends you? The Parable of the Sower reflects upon being "fishermen of men." But shouldn't you love god--the highest commandment--to live up to every last dot and tittle of the laws and prophets (which includes death for apostates)?

 

[12jtartar]

An idiot can have an eternity of bible reading so i would say you have an eternity of stupidity ahead of you. Stupidity most certainly exists as the dominate paradigm in religion and thats a fact..

David T,
Only time will sort out all things. Can you really make such statements, whe, obviously, you do not have knowledge about both sides of the argument, so how in the world can you make a statement which can mean your everlasting death, without knowing both sides. Even stupid people know that fact!!!
Most people who have studied the Bible have found it to be sententious, full of knowledge and wisdom. The Bible is written differently than any book written by man. It is written so that the wise and intellectual cannot understand, but babes can, Matthew 11:25,26, Luke 10:21. Babes here is meaning beginner in learning taught in the Holy Scriptures.
Some people think the Bible is stupid, some believe that the teachings contradict, but the more you learn from our creator the more you begin to understand that all Scripture is related to all other Scripture, and it is all harmonious. The fact is, the Bible is the only place on earth where truth can be found.

 

[12jtartar]

I would take one veteran SBC unloading the truck at a food bank over ten JWs patting themselves on the back and writing in their logs how many Watchtower magazines they left there while nobody was looking.

ADigitalArtist,
Remember the old saying, give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself from now on??
Then, think on emptying a food truck, and which is more important to the eternal life of that one, feeding him for a few days in this life, or giving a person truth from God’s word that can feed his heart, for eternity??
Interestingly, this exact problem was addressed by the Apostles in the first century. Acts 6:1-6 shows us what is more important, physical food or Spiritual food, the Apostles chose to continue teaching and let others deliver physical food.
What the Apostles were saying, was not to belittle delivering food, for this is necessary and the people who do this are to be acclaimed, but today, even more than in the first century, Bible truth, the food that Jesus gave is even more important. We are very near the end of this world, as we now know it. Something much better is coming, but for people to be able to take advantage of the coming New World, they must learn about it, 2Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1-5, 2Thessalonians 1:6-10.
Agape!!!

 

[ADigitalArtist]

ADigitalArtist,
Remember the old saying, give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself from now on??
Then, think on emptying a food truck, and which is more important to the eternal life of that one, feeding him for a few days in this life, or giving a person truth from God’s word that can feed his heart, for eternity??
Interestingly, this exact problem was addressed by the Apostles in the first century. Acts 6:1-6 shows us what is more important, physical food or Spiritual food, the Apostles chose to continue teaching and let others deliver physical food.
What the Apostles were saying, was not to belittle delivering food, for this is necessary and the people who do this are to be acclaimed, but today, even more than in the first century, Bible truth, the food that Jesus gave is even more important. We are very near the end of this world, as we now know it. Something much better is coming, but for people to be able to take advantage of the coming New World, they must learn about it, 2Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1-5, 2Thessalonians 1:6-10.
Agape!!!

That's a lazy copout if I've ever heard one. Akin to the good samaritan leaving the bleeding body with a religious tract on his back instead of actually aiding them. JW are the least charitable Christian organization, in my experience. And even when I attended, I took the call to feed, clothe and shelter very literally. Because people aren't just warm bodies to fill seats in a congregation, but that's how JW treat people.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me ...The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

Matthew 25:35, 36, 40

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That's a lazy copout if I've ever heard one. Akin to the good samaritan leaving the bleeding body with a religious tract on his back instead of actually aiding them. JW are the least charitable Christian organization, in my experience. And even when I attended, I took the call to feed, clothe and shelter very literally. Because people aren't just warm bodies to fill seats in a congregation, but that's how JW treat people.

Matthew 25:35, 36, 40

You missed the entire point! (Willfully?)

The Scriptures are clear — God’s will is that all sorts of men should be saved by (being fed?) coming to an accurate knowledge of Him. — 1 Timothy 2:4 (cf. John 17:3)

I have many times, helped those I’ve met in door-to-door, with physical help, such as with food and milk.

You’re being disingenuous by implying that we’d leave “a bleeding body with a religious tract on his back instead of actually aiding them.”

We are primarily interested in feeding people spiritually, even Jesus said that. (Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4), but we also are known to help others during distressing events, caused by weather, etc.

What have you done for strangers, either physically or spiritually?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You missed the entire point! (Willfully?)

The Scriptures are clear — God’s will is that all sorts of men should be saved by (being fed?) coming to an accurate knowledge of Him. (cf. John 17:3)

I have many times, helped those I’ve met in door-to-door, with physical help, such as with food and milk.

You’re being disingenuous by implying that we’d leave “a bleeding body with a religious tract on his back instead of actually aiding them.”

We are primarily interested in feeding people spiritually, even Jesus said that. (Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4), but we also are known to help others during distressing events, caused by weather, etc.

I did door to door service with a group of pioneers for ten years. I know what I saw there. And what I didn't. What I did see was reducing people to placement numbers, never actually learning about a person and their troubles unless they could use it for a used car salesmen pitch. It is the coldest approach to 'brotherly love' I have ever seen. And as soon as I could, I left to find people who treat the body and the spirit.

What have you done for strangers, either physically or spiritually?

I've been with a giving garden and food bank for two years, and volunteer for a suicide hotline. Also various political movements for aid programs which I doubt you'll care about

 

[Hockeycowboy]

never actually learning about a person and their troubles unless they could use it for a used car salesmen pitch.

Oh....so they only did it to get money?