South Africa is burning.

[Quagmire]

Well I was responding to the OP's experience and many other things I heard. I know both conservatives and liberals can find ways to present statistics most to their likings.

Farm attacks of the types described are not even a thing in first-world countries.

Well, speaking for the United States, a gang of looters would have to be completely crazy to go out into the rural areas and try and cause trouble.

Much easier pickings in the cities.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Well I was responding to the OP's experience and many other things I heard. I know both conservatives and liberals can find ways to present statistics most to their likings.

Farm attacks of the types described are not even a thing in first-world countries.

You are thinking in American terms when speaking about conservatives and liberals. So that doesn't apply here.

The farm attacks aren't a thing in first world countries but neither is the level of violence that happens in South Africa or the amount of people who get killed here. Just read South African news and you will see just how many people get killed from all races. The worst affected are the poor communities. So if anybody is saying that white people should leave the country should also be saying that foreigners and a lot of South Africans of all races should leave the country too. No point in singling a specific race out.

 

[George-ananda]

You are thinking in American terms when speaking about conservatives and liberals. So that doesn't apply here.

The farm attacks aren't a thing in first world countries but neither is the level of violence that happens in South Africa or the amount of people who get killed here. Just read South African news and you will see just how many people get killed from all races. The worst affected are the poor communities. So if anybody is saying that white people should leave the country should also be saying that foreigners and a lot of South Africans of all races should leave the country too. No point in singling a specific race out.

Point is I've heard a lot of sentiments that whites don't belong there from many South African blacks with resentments. I don't hear that said about blacks. I was just saying these whites might be right to say 'fine, I'll be more than happy to leave'.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Point is I've heard a lot of sentiments that whites don't belong there from many South African blacks with resentments. I don't hear that said about blacks. I was just saying these whites might be right to say 'fine, I'll be more than happy to leave'.

Oh, so you haven't heard over the past decade about the Xenophobic killings of foreign black people, where certain local blacks were saying that foreign blacks don't belong in South Africa? They were often identified by skin colour as being "too dark" to be South African. That was huge at least in local news.

South Africa xenophobic attacks: How did we get here? - CNN

Xenophobic violence in democratic South Africa | South African History Online (sahistory.org.za)

"When the xenophobic violence in South Africa occurred, the victims were not only foreigners in the sense of a different nationality are attacked but in fact everybody not belonging to the dominant ethnic groups in the main cities, Zulu or Xhosa, was attacked. Members of smaller ethnic groups in South Africa are also viewed as foreigners by fellow South Africans. White people are not viewed as foreigners in the context of xenophobic violence.There had been attacks on South Africans who 'looked foreign' because they were 'too dark' to be South African."

 

[George-ananda]

Oh, so you haven't heard over the past decade about the Xenophobic killings of foreign black people, where certain local blacks were saying that foreign blacks don't belong in South Africa? They were often identified by skin colour as being "too dark" to be South African. That was huge at least in local news.

South Africa xenophobic attacks: How did we get here? - CNN

Xenophobic violence in democratic South Africa | South African History Online (sahistory.org.za)

"When the xenophobic violence in South Africa occurred, the victims were not only foreigners in the sense of a different nationality are attacked but in fact everybody not belonging to the dominant ethnic groups in the main cities, Zulu or Xhosa, was attacked. Members of smaller ethnic groups in South Africa are also viewed as foreigners by fellow South Africans. White people are not viewed as foreigners in the context of xenophobic violence.There had been attacks on South Africans who 'looked foreign' because they were 'too dark' to be South African."

Still doesn’t change my comment to the OP topic that highlighted farm attacks against whites. Other Africans in South Africa is another subject.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Still doesn’t change my comment to the OP topic that highlighted farm attacks against whites. Other Africans in South Africa is another subject.

They are all the same. No need to highlight one specific race because that feeds specific racial narratives.

Now my question is this: Why do many people often highlight farm killings of white people and not the Xenophobic attacks which happen for the similar reasons and on a larger scale?

 

[SA Huguenot]

last night a lot happened.
My son left the farm with his family, and joined other farmers at one place. (please note, there were indian and black farmers also who left their homes).
they still can not get out of the area, and the local police was borrowing 9mm ammunition from farmers, because they dont have any.
Needless to say, only a few police men guarded whatever they could. The rest were "missing in action".
My son went back to the house at 21H00 after getting a message from the security that his house was set alight.
Everything was destroyed.
They slept in a camper overnight, without any food for the kids this morning.
They dont have any petrol, and there is no shops left at wartburg.
Everything in that area was looted and destroyed. I understand that there are security companies working with police to open the roads, but people are as water, as soon as one area is secure, the previous are lost again.

 

[Samael_Khan]

last night a lot happened.
My son left the farm with his family, and joined other farmers at one place. (please note, there were indian and black farmers also who left their homes).
they still can not get out of the area, and the local police was borrowing 9mm ammunition from farmers, because they dont have any.
Needless to say, only a few police men guarded whatever they could. The rest were "missing in action".
My son went back to the house at 21H00 after getting a message from the security that his house was set alight.
Everything was destroyed.
They slept in a camper overnight, without any food for the kids this morning.
They dont have any petrol, and there is no shops left at wartburg.
Everything in that area was looted and destroyed. I understand that there are security companies working with police to open the roads, but people are as water, as soon as one area is secure, the previous are lost again.
View attachment 52665 View attachment 52666 View attachment 52667 View attachment 52669

Wow... this is horrible what happened to your son and his family. What options does he have now to move forward?

I think it is ridiculous how useless our police force are. Apparently they are even running out of ammunition and are over stretched because they just aren't prepared. Its pathetic. Apparently they also aren't trained to deal with protests which are actually a pretty common occurrence in our country.

These people just want destruction. They are basically trying to cripple the country. There is more to this than just poverty now. There is a strategy and an agenda behind this.

 

[SA Huguenot]

What exactly does any of this have to do with "leftist ideology" or multiculturalism?

If you dont know, you have trouble or you cause hardship to other people living under Leftist ideologies in countries without any real democracy.

the lesson is that South Africa is perceived as a "Democracy" by the world, and one of multiculturalism by name of the "Rainbow Nation".
It sounds so nice when Communist and Socialist politicians make their speeches on the media, with long winded nice descriptions on how beautifull such a country operates and how successfull they are.
In the meanwhile, they create a oversize government structyre by nepotism, filling expert positions with friends, families and fellow political comrades, who never saw the light of any experiance or education to perform such duties as is expected in such portfolios.
Director of transport, I would say, needs an engineering degree, but a man with grade 9 got the job. Financial managers in local governments, I would say needs to be a Bcom accounting, of which only 18% currently has such degrees.

The Minister of police is perhaps the most uneducated person in police in the world with a preschool diploma!
Minister of defence is Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula has a teacher's diploma , and project mamagement certificate.

Well, the SA Police and Defence force is the joke of the world.

This is the results of Socialism and Multiculturism if ruled by the Leftists!
Total chaos, and annarchy.
Look around you and you will find that multiculturism works only in the USA, and even this is now under threat by leftists who are attempting to divide the cultures on the false accusations of racism.

Leftists, socialists, communism, all are a danger, and this is why SA is now just another useless state in Africa,

 

[Lyndon]

Some people think things were better under Aparteid, maybe for whites only!

 

[SA Huguenot]

You are thinking in American terms when speaking about conservatives and liberals. So that doesn't apply here.

The farm attacks aren't a thing in first world countries but neither is the level of violence that happens in South Africa or the amount of people who get killed here. Just read South African news and you will see just how many people get killed from all races. The worst affected are the poor communities. So if anybody is saying that white people should leave the country should also be saying that foreigners and a lot of South Africans of all races should leave the country too. No point in singling a specific race out.

I agree that murders are rampant in South Africa in all the different communities and races unequal to any other country in the world.

But to write the murders of White farmers off as just more crime is a very dangerous statement, which is utilised by the ANC to sweep these murders under the rug.

Allow me to explain.
Murders against black people are due to robberies, hi jackings, fighting between tribal etnicities, family murders etc.
It is also mainly done by black criminals.

Now, on the white farm murders the following differences is the MO.
1. The farm gets attacked by Black men, never white criminals.
2. they will lay the family in ambush.
3. They will then take them indoors, tie them up with wire, rape the woman and girls in fromt of their father and brothers.
4. they will then torture the mother to find any hidden firearms.
5. They will then disembowel the women, take their intestines and place it nect to the bodies while their victem dies.
6. then they will burn the dad, and children with clothes' irons, and eventually stab them to death and disembowel them too.

They will leave stealing cellphones and firearms, which will leave the police to record the crime as a robbery gone wrong.
Now, anyone telling me this is not so, must keep in mind that there are not only a record of over 3800 such attacks, but I had family which was murdered this way.

Dont even attempt to tell me this is just crime such as other homicides.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Some people think things were better under Aparteid, maybe for whites only!

This is not a nice thing to say!
Why?
Do you know that the "Whites" to which you refer was not happy with Apartheid anyhow?
Do you know that these whites which you say had it nice, had to send their sons off to war for 2 years, fighting the communists in Namibia, loosing their lives?
Do you know that the ANC was a terrorist organisation planting bombs in South African cities, killing innocent people, women children, of any color?
Do you know how it feels to wait for Swapo to come down from Angola, issued with Chinese and Russian armory, including T34 Tanks, trained by West Germans, and supported by Cubans?, towards you with the intend to kill all the white South Africans?
Have you seen the white men aged 18 to 20 being hard fighters, whilst the ANC, Swapo, and Mkonto wi Siswe attacked tour people at home?

Do you know what it is to have your country which your fathers and grandfathers bought, and lateron fought for with the loss of at least 25% of the total nation of Afrikaner, just to loose it because another nationality grew larger than your people. (Obviously the Brittish collonialisation of the Transvaal and Freestate made us the minority in our own country.)

Do you know how it feels to eventually realise that you dont have a country left anymore, and due to politcs, and world opinion, you are now the rubbish of the world, and dont have any rights to demand any human rights in a now socialist country.
Do you know how it feels if a majority black country passes legistation to prohibit whites employment, sovereign proppertty rights, and any government contracts?

Do you know how it feels if your child cant go to university, even if they have the best grades in the country, but are white! where a black person is allowed ONLY BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOUR?

No, you dont know any of the above, because you might live in a country where the values of the Christian Western world were shaped into what you have today.
And guess what?
Even the Western World's freedom is now under threat by the hands of the leftist socialist ideologies taught in your schools, Universities and even in your churches.

Regards to Biden and friends.

 

[Samael_Khan]

If you dont know, you have trouble or you cause hardship to other people living under Leftist ideologies in countries without any real democracy.

the lesson is that South Africa is perceived as a "Democracy" by the world, and one of multiculturalism by name of the "Rainbow Nation".
It sounds so nice when Communist and Socialist politicians make their speeches on the media, with long winded nice descriptions on how beautifull such a country operates and how successfull they are.
In the meanwhile, they create a oversize government structyre by nepotism, filling expert positions with friends, families and fellow political comrades, who never saw the light of any experiance or education to perform such duties as is expected in such portfolios.
Director of transport, I would say, needs an engineering degree, but a man with grade 9 got the job. Financial managers in local governments, I would say needs to be a Bcom accounting, of which only 18% currently has such degrees.

The Minister of police is perhaps the most uneducated person in police in the world with a preschool diploma!
Minister of defence is Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula has a teacher's diploma , and project mamagement certificate.

Well, the SA Police and Defence force is the joke of the world.

This is the results of Socialism and Multiculturism if ruled by the Leftists!
Total chaos, and annarchy.
Look around you and you will find that multiculturism works only in the USA, and even this is now under threat by leftists who are attempting to divide the cultures on the false accusations of racism.

Leftists, socialists, communism, all are a danger, and this is why SA is now just another useless state in Africa,

I would disagree with you here. Whether South Africa was socialist, leftist or not wouldn't have changed this outcome. And South Africa is more capitalist than socialist anyway.

But I would agree that certain rulings that are the result of socialist thought are detrimental to society, such as BEE. But what other solution would you suggest to bring the country right and help the poor which are the majority? If there is a better solution then we should go with that.

Racism, nepotism and corruption aren't unique to leftist ideology as that is also present on the right.

I think that you should focus on Julius Malema and the EFF regarding the dangers of leftist ideology because he is outspoken about that. And he is dangerous because he is one of the main instigators behind this mess. His ideology is basically to rob people and take over their land.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I agree that murders are rampant in South Africa in all the different communities and races unequal to any other country in the world.

But to write the murders of White farmers off as just more crime is a very dangerous statement, which is utilised by the ANC to sweep these murders under the rug.

Allow me to explain.
Murders against black people are due to robberies, hi jackings, fighting between tribal etnicities, family murders etc.
It is also mainly done by black criminals.

Now, on the white farm murders the following differences is the MO.
1. The farm gets attacked by Black men, never white criminals.
2. they will lay the family in ambush.
3. They will then take them indoors, tie them up with wire, rape the woman and girls in fromt of their father and brothers.
4. they will then torture the mother to find any hidden firearms.
5. They will then disembowel the women, take their intestines and place it nect to the bodies while their victem dies.
6. then they will burn the dad, and children with clothes' irons, and eventually stab them to death and disembowel them too.

They will leave stealing cellphones and firearms, which will leave the police to record the crime as a robbery gone wrong.
Now, anyone telling me this is not so, must keep in mind that there are not only a record of over 3800 such attacks, but I had family which was murdered this way.

Dont even attempt to tell me this is just crime such as other homicides.

Thing is, I just see this as depravity of the nation. And I see it as the result of political agenda and racial hatred which is the same with xenophobia.

I am not even surprised at the brutality of the crime. We hear of people raping children, cutting them up and wrapping them in plastic, people tortured, albinos getting brutalized for muti killings, women getting raped and their breasts cut off and lots of other brutal crimes. The worst affected are people in their own community.

Now each crime has their own characteristics and motivations, so I don't separate them. I would say that at the very least, what you are describing is as horrendous as what is happening to children and women in our country because of the brutality that they suffer, which is far more regular. This is why I don't separate them. And I don't consider it "just" another crime. ALL of these crimes are extremely serious.

 

[Samael_Khan]

This is not a nice thing to say!
Why?
Do you know that the "Whites" to which you refer was not happy with Apartheid anyhow?
Do you know that these whites which you say had it nice, had to send their sons off to war for 2 years, fighting the communists in Namibia, loosing their lives?
Do you know that the ANC was a terrorist organisation planting bombs in South African cities, killing innocent people, women children, of any color?
Do you know how it feels to wait for Swapo to come down from Angola, issued with Chinese and Russian armory, including T34 Tanks, trained by West Germans, and supported by Cubans?, towards you with the intend to kill all the white South Africans?
Have you seen the white men aged 18 to 20 being hard fighters, whilst the ANC, Swapo, and Mkonto wi Siswe attacked tour people at home?

Do you know what it is to have your country which your fathers and grandfathers bought, and lateron fought for with the loss of at least 25% of the total nation of Afrikaner, just to loose it because another nationality grew larger than your people. (Obviously the Brittish collonialisation of the Transvaal and Freestate made us the minority in our own country.)

Do you know how it feels to eventually realise that you dont have a country left anymore, and due to politcs, and world opinion, you are now the rubbish of the world, and dont have any rights to demand any human rights in a now socialist country.
Do you know how it feels if a majority black country passes legistation to prohibit whites employment, sovereign proppertty rights, and any government contracts?

Do you know how it feels if your child cant go to university, even if they have the best grades in the country, but are white! where a black person is allowed ONLY BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOUR?

No, you dont know any of the above, because you might live in a country where the values of the Christian Western world were shaped into what you have today.
And guess what?
Even the Western World's freedom is now under threat by the hands of the leftist socialist ideologies taught in your schools, Universities and even in your churches.

Regards to Biden and friends.

So was it better for you under Apartheid or in the current government?

 

[SA Huguenot]

That is terrible. That worries me. You really have been a good sport, not slaughtering everyone who attacked. That is a very powerful testimony. You are brave folks trying to do the right thing, and its going to pay off. Its difficult to know for sure what to do, sometimes; but saving life is a very honorable deed. I can't say that I would done as well. I'm inspired.

I did not understand what you meant about leftist politicians running out of money and what happened, exactly, to cause these riots. I'm unfamiliar with socialism and the democratic process in SA, but you sound like you have much to worry about. I'm not going to ask you to explain the whole thing right now. You sound like you are in a bit of danger. Maybe after things calm down in a few weeks you can explain where socialism comes causes these problems. In the meantime I'll see if there is any good explanation around on the internet.

Let me give you some better news.
It is not all the people in SA that is doing these things.
80% of us are safe, but we will feel the consequences of no petrol, shops, higher food prices, less work and so on.
So far it is 2 provinces, Kwazulu natal, and Gauteng.
KZN is the Zulu area on the Atlantic ocean side, and it is very rural, with a huge farming environment. This is where Durban and Pietermarritzburg are situated.
Gauteng is the industrial province, with huge mining and other industries.
In KZN, the home of Jacob Zuma, the Zulu people were influenced by politicians to prevent him going to jail. it spilled over to all the people in the province, because there just is no employment after the ANC destroyed the economy over the past 25 years. They have a socialist mentality, where they dont have the capability to use capitalism to create industries and employment, but rather employed everyone thy could in government positions. Most of these people are incapable of performing their duties. With the Government's foolish lockdown last year march, employment grew to incredible hights, and people are going poor as we have never seen before.
Even before this situation, the ANC used Government grants to pay women for every child they have, which resulted in thousands of unwedded mothers in schools. Food stamps were issued, and electricity and water was promised to be free, with no one paying for any of these services, except for people who were employed and paid taxes.
This ment the ANC had to create some source of income to have 30% of the population paying for 60% of people using electricity, to fullfill their election promises.

Now we have socialism at work on a grand scale.
1. The Electrical company, ESCOM sells the electricity to the municipalities.
2. They distribute it to everyone in their metropol or municipality,.
3. Some people pay their bill, and others just dont. especially the areas where the predominantly majority ANC voters lives dont pay anything.
4. The Municipalities then take the money, spent it on their huge overfilled salaries, cars, entertainment, and travel, and dont pay Escom.
5. after a few years, Escom gets money from the government to continue to produce electricity and the whole wheel continues to turn without moving anywhere.

The Government then start to do the same with hospitals, police, military, media, airforce and eventually everything is bancrupt.
South Africa's econnomy was ranked by 3 international monitary institutions as "Rubbish!"

Now, what do you think will people do when they get the chance to go and loot, burn, knowing there is no police force, or Army to be held accountable?

This was what the international world wanted whern they left the previous Government over to the ANC!
And, it is sooo nice to keep on blaming the "whites and Apartheid" for the total destruction practiced by the ANC under the cover of "Democracy" for the world not to learn it was all the socialist ideologies fed into one of the greatest countries in Africa.

 

[SA Huguenot]

So was it better for you under Apartheid or in the current government?

If you think it was good to go to the Army for 2 years, go to a war zone in Angola, finishing this 2 years at age 20, only to be called up for 3 months every year for service, untill 30 years of age, finding your wife having to evacuate buildings because of limpet mines planted by coward ANC terrorists, having your family killed by a mine on their farm road, being discriminated against your military duties at work, never getting the promotions your Brittish pasport ex Rhodesians got, because of your 3 month's absenteism, having Black unions make your life miserable at work, growing into a hard man with little sympathy for life, witnessing how ANC "freedom fighters" cut off their own people's hands and feet, torturing them, and setting them alight in a tyre, I would ask?
Do you think the "Apartheid regime " was a nice place to live in?

 

[Samael_Khan]

If you think it was good to go to the Army for 2 years, go to a war zone in Angola, finishing this 2 years at age 20, only to be called up for 3 months every year for service, untill 30 years of age, finding your wife having to evacuate buildings because of limpet mines planted by coward ANC terrorists, having your family killed by a mine on their farm road, being discriminated against your military duties at work, never getting the promotions your Brittish pasport ex Rhodesians got, because of your 3 month's absenteism, having Black unions make your life miserable at work, growing into a hard man with little sympathy for life, witnessing how ANC "freedom fighters" cut off their own people's hands and feet, torturing them, and setting them alight in a tyre, I would ask?
Do you think the "Apartheid regime " was a nice place to live in?

I am not asking you whether the Apartheid regime was a nice place to live. I am not under the illusion that all white people all had it great, as there were white people who fought against the apartheid government, which shows discontent among them.

I am asking you whether you feel that life was better for you under the Apartheid government or the current government.

Or, let me rephrase, in your mind, was the Apartheid government a better government than our current one?

 

[SA Huguenot]

I am not asking you whether the Apartheid regime was a nice place to live. I am not under the illusion that all white people all had it great, as there were white people who fought against the apartheid government, which shows discontent among them.

I am asking you whether you feel that life was better for you under the Apartheid government or the current government.

Or, let me rephrase, in your mind, was the Apartheid government a better government than our current one?

No, it was just as bad as the current.
The reason is that both were facist, wanting to rule everything, controling everyone, and they did not give a damn about anyone.
To me the previous government was a
White Racist Government.

And the current South African government...
A Black Racist government.

With the exception that the current one is totally incapable to create an economy which this country can produce.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Let me give you some better news.
It is not all the people in SA that is doing these things.
80% of us are safe, but we will feel the consequences of no petrol, shops, higher food prices, less work and so on.
So far it is 2 provinces, Kwazulu natal, and Gauteng.
KZN is the Zulu area on the Atlantic ocean side, and it is very rural, with a huge farming environment. This is where Durban and Pietermarritzburg are situated.
Gauteng is the industrial province, with huge mining and other industries.
In KZN, the home of Jacob Zuma, the Zulu people were influenced by politicians to prevent him going to jail. it spilled over to all the people in the province, because there just is no employment after the ANC destroyed the economy over the past 25 years. They have a socialist mentality, where they dont have the capability to use capitalism to create industries and employment, but rather employed everyone thy could in government positions. Most of these people are incapable of performing their duties. With the Government's foolish lockdown last year march, employment grew to incredible hights, and people are going poor as we have never seen before.
Even before this situation, the ANC used Government grants to pay women for every child they have, which resulted in thousands of unwedded mothers in schools. Food stamps were issued, and electricity and water was promised to be free, with no one paying for any of these services, except for people who were employed and paid taxes.
This ment the ANC had to create some source of income to have 30% of the population paying for 60% of people using electricity, to fullfill their election promises.

Now we have socialism at work on a grand scale.
1. The Electrical company, ESCOM sells the electricity to the municipalities.
2. They distribute it to everyone in their metropol or municipality,.
3. Some people pay their bill, and others just dont. especially the areas where the predominantly majority ANC voters lives dont pay anything.
4. The Municipalities then take the money, spent it on their huge overfilled salaries, cars, entertainment, and travel, and dont pay Escom.
5. after a few years, Escom gets money from the government to continue to produce electricity and the whole wheel continues to turn without moving anywhere.

The Government then start to do the same with hospitals, police, military, media, airforce and eventually everything is bancrupt.
South Africa's econnomy was ranked by 3 international monitary institutions as "Rubbish!"

Now, what do you think will people do when they get the chance to go and loot, burn, knowing there is no police force, or Army to be held accountable?

This was what the international world wanted whern they left the previous Government over to the ANC!
And, it is sooo nice to keep on blaming the "whites and Apartheid" for the total destruction practiced by the ANC under the cover of "Democracy" for the world not to learn it was all the socialist ideologies fed into one of the greatest countries in Africa.

I agree with a lot that you have to say here but regarding your last sentence:

If the English and Apartheid government uplifted people rather than oppress the majority, then we wouldn't have rampant poverty and uneducated people. The ANC wouldn't have existed and none of the fighting and bombings would have happened, and the ANC would not have come to power. The country wouldn't have been in such a mess when the ANC inherited it. Obviously the ANC, specifically Zuma's cabinet, ruined the country even further financially. Even worse, they gave rise to Julius Malema and the EFF.

If we speak of what cause the Apartheid government, that is also complex, because the poor Afrikaaner workers were being oppressed by the British. Similar situation. The poor rise up against the wealthy to stop oppression and then they end up oppressing others.

It is all cause and effect and this nonsense started way before socialism did anything in our country. Socialism only really gains roots among people who are oppressed. The wealthy have no need for socialism.