Souls and Their Emergent Properties

[MikeF]

It’s definitely required for a physical body to be conscious. But there is also consciousness through our subtle (astral) body upon its separation from the physical body (as reported in Near Death Experiences). A working physical brain is not required for that consciousness.

A working brain as in working properly? What of an improperly working brain?

It would seem to me that near death is not dead, implying some capacity, right?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And what informs this conclusion? How have you determined that the physical brain is insufficient in explaining consciousness?

Yes that is simple. E.g. the word insufficient has no psychical representation. And that is not the only word of that kind. The same goes for "And what informs this conclusion? How have you determined that (the physical brain is physical) is insufficient in explaining consciousness?"
All of the words and signs except the physical brain have no psychical representation. All of these words only work in your mind as your consciousness.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What is an astral/mental/causal plane? How and why are you positing it's existence?
And if such things are undetectable, then how do we know they are there?
What I had asked was how do we know souls exist, and how can we tell if they go somewhere. I mean, if we can't detect them in the first place, how can we say they're going anywhere or doing anything at all?


How have you determined that a "near death experience" involves a soul leaving a body if you can't detect a soul in the first place? In other words, how have you drawn a conclusion about something that you can't detect or demonstrate?

My grandfather's heart stopped on the operating table for a few seconds. So he, "nearly" died. I asked him if he experienced anything and he said it he experienced nothing - it was just like he was sleeping. So, did he not have a soul, or .... ?

So everything you know you know as external to your brain and you only use evidence? Are we back to this again?

 

[MikeF]

Yes that is simple. E.g. the word insufficient has no psychical representation. And that is not the only word of that kind. The same goes for "And what informs this conclusion? How have you determined that (the physical brain is physical) is insufficient in explaining consciousness?"
All of the words and signs except the physical brain have no psychical representation. All of these words only work in your mind as your consciousness.

Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. I do not know what you mean by psychical representation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you believe in souls, what are the specific properties or qualities that you believe souls provide the organisms possessing them? For instance, is consciousness an emergent property of souls? What about emotions, sapience, etc.?

Where does biology stop being able to explain any specific quality we have and souls start doing so, in your view? Or are biology and the soul synonymous?

The capacity of rational thought is the God given bounty for the human soul.

There is basically 5 levels of Soul/Spirit operating in this material world.

Regards Tony

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. I do not know what you mean by psychical representation.

E.g. a stone can be explain in physical terms using science.
That science matters as it matters can't be explain in physical terms using science.
That is your trick. Science matters, but that it matters in not physical.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So everything you know you know as external to your brain and you only use evidence? Are we back to this again?

I'm trying to figure out what a soul is, and what it's properties are. Like the thread title suggests.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So everything you know you know as external to your brain

Yes indeed, I personally see it is most logical that consciousness is not part of the brain.

We have the ability to fly without wings, to talk without a mouth, to be in other places without travelling, to be full aware while totally unconscious.

Regards Tony

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm trying to figure out what a soul is, and what it's properties are. Like the thread title suggests.

We don't know. It is a case of the unknown. What we do know, is that in practice everything is not physical. The closest we can get is that the mind and its content are caused by the physical, but can't be reduced to the physical.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes indeed, I personally see it is most logical that consciousness is not part of the brain.

We have the ability to fly without wings, to talk without a mouth, to be in other places without travelling, to be full aware while totally unconscious.

Regards Tony

Have we ever found an example of consciousness existing without a brain?

 

[MikeF]

E.g. a stone can be explain in physical terms using science.
That science matters as it matters can't be explain in physical terms using science.
That is your trick. Science matters, but that it matters in not physical.

Thought is physical, correct? Just as a written word on a page is a physical manifestation of the abstract concept of a particular word, that word likewise is manifested in neurochemical form in a brain. Without the physical makeup, it cannot exist.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We don't know. It is a case of the unknown. What we do know, is that in practice everything is not physical. The closest we can get is that the mind and its content are caused by the physical, but can't be reduced to the physical.

That poster was talking about it as though s/he does know. Hence my questions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Thought is physical, correct? Just as a written word on a page is a physical manifestation of the abstract concept of a particular word, that word likewise is manifested in neurochemical form in a brain. Without the physical makeup, it cannot exist.

But it can't be understood in only physical terms.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That poster was talking about it as though s/he does know. Hence my questions.

Yes, I know that. But to me that is faith/religion/culture. Not that this makes wrong or any such thing. Just that is relative to a given culture.

 

[MikeF]

But it can't be understood in only physical terms.

Why? We both must agree that the workings of the central nervous system are nowhere near fully understood, yet there are many things that give us clues to the physicality of thought, namely, all the ways in which thought and personality can be altered by physical means, be it chemical, electrical, or direct physical manipulation or destruction.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why? We both must agree that the workings of the central nervous system are nowhere near fully understood, yet there are many things that give us clues to the physicality of thought, namely, all the ways in which thought and personality can be altered by physical means, be it chemical, electrical, or direct physical manipulation or destruction.

Yes, but that is not sufficient to claim that is nothing but physical. You can't understand what e.g. matters to someone in only physical terms.

 

[MikeF]

Yes, but that is not sufficient to claim that is nothing but physical. You can't understand what e.g. matters to someone in only physical terms.

Why? It is more than reasonable to say that to date, it appears that thought is completely physical and there is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise.

When there is absolutely no evidence, of a soul or non-physically dependent aspect of the mind, then there is no reason to even suggest such, and definitely no reason to claim it is definitively true.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why? It is more than reasonable to say that to date, it appears that thought is completely physical and there is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise.

When there is absolutely no evidence, of a soul or non-physically dependent aspect of the mind, then there is no reason to even suggest such, and definitely no reason to claim it is definitively true.

Well, there is. Take a stone again. Explain it using only natural science and you can. Take reason and you can't do the same. Now do the same with truth and again you can't.

 

[George-ananda]

What is an astral/mental/causal plane? How and why are you positing it's existence?

From those that have experienced such things through their subtle body's senses including masters/clairvoyants of esoteric wisdom traditions like Vedic (Hindu), Theosophical and others.

And if such things are undetectable, then how do we know they are there? What I had asked was how do we know souls exist, and how can we tell if they go somewhere. I mean, if we can't detect them in the first place, how can we say they're going anywhere or doing anything at all?

Clarification: they are undetectable by the physical senses but the subtle bodies have senses of their own that can detect it. Psychic sensing and in Near Death Experiences people encounter a world of things we cannot physically detect.

How have you determined that a "near death experience" involves a soul leaving a body if you can't detect a soul in the first place? In other words, how have you drawn a conclusion about something that you can't detect or demonstrate?

Question answered above.

My grandfather's heart stopped on the operating table for a few seconds. So he, "nearly" died. I asked him if he experienced anything and he said it he experienced nothing - it was just like he was sleeping. So, did he not have a soul, or .... ?

Everybody must have a soul to function including your grandfather. At times of death-like trauma the astral body separates from the physical body. People and situations can vary the trigger moment. Everybody's astral body separates at permanent death. Leaving and returning to tell us about it is probably more the exception than the rule.

 

[George-ananda]

A working brain as in working properly? What of an improperly working brain?

Then we would get distorted working.

It would seem to me that near death is not dead, implying some capacity, right?

In Near Death Experiences separation of the astral body has occurred as in final death but the brain/body is not yet so damaged to allow for the possibility of the astral body's return.

There can be no higher brain physical activity functioning, but the person can have enhanced rational vivid experiences through the astral body.