Soul Sleep, Soul Death, or Conscious Afterlife

[Benoni]

he likes to hide things???


He certainly reveals a lot within the pages of the bible though.

Yes but the problem is most all they see is the milk. You know the difference between milk and meat spiritual speaking?

 

[Benoni]

it would be very odd if Jesus preached only to the people who died in noahs day and not all of mankind....unless of course its not about the 'people' of noahs day but about the 'spirits' of Noahs day.

Then it makes a whole lot of sense. The spirits are the angels. The bible calls them spirits in a number of verses, ie Psalms 104:4*Making his angels spirits, His ministers a devouring fire


1 Kings 22:21 Finally a spirit came out and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I myself shall fool him.’ At that Jehovah said to him, ‘By what means?

So angels are called spirits....and the spirits in noahs day are the ones who came down to have relations with the daughters of men....and from these were born the nephilim offspring.

The verses tell who they are. They tell us literally and they were not angel. If you are a seeker of truth you would see this, not a defender of your bias. Do you know what revelation is? It is unvealed truth. God spirit is unveiling a message here and you are putting the veil right back on.

 

[Pegg]

The verses tell who they are. They tell us literally and they were not angel. If you are a seeker of truth you would see this, not a defender of your bias. Do you know what revelation is? It is unvealed truth. God spirit is unveiling a message here and you are putting the veil right back on.

how do you know its not you putting the veil on?

 

[Benoni]

how do you know its not you putting the veil on?

Because Pegg, I have lost my veil a long time ago, when I was called God's me out of the religious manmade systems.

That veil in my temple has been torn from top to bottom; and because of that the unveiling of Jesus Christ is what my walk in Christ is all about. When Baby-lon speak of the veil being torn back; it is in the letter not the living reality.

2 Cor 3:12-18
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. NKJV

Psalm 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel. Moses went up that mountain by Himself; all deep people of God need to come to a place where they can face God’s glory by them selves; Moses knew that the children of Israel could not climb those high place where God’s glory was. Eternalhellist see God’s acts; but not His ways.

The man made religious systems the Bible refers to as Baby-lon are contained by their own fear and their bondage of condemnations towards themselves and the Hugh majority of God’s people who they pretty much have given up on; Trillion have gone to the grave already without Christ. They do not have the total freedom to hear that deep quiet voice within all of us so they cannot move freely from glory to glory; because their eyes are still veiled (they are spiritual blind or example would be the OT priest (type of Melchisedec) who cannot have a blemish in their eye.

The word "blemish" used in connection with the eyes is from the Hebrew CALLUS denoting a disease of the eyes, namely, cataracts. Cataracts have obscured the vision of more people throughout the ages than any other affliction of the eye.

Rev 3:18

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. KJV


Lev 21:16-23
6 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. 18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, 19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, 20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; 21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. 22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy. 23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them. KJV

 

[jtartar]

Please present you best arguments from Scripture to support them.

nazz,
The belief that when a person dies his soul also dies and does not wake up until he is resurrected, called Psycopannychy, and must be true, for I doubt if the dust is alive.
Consider what God said happens to a person when they die, Rev 3:19, we go back to the dust from where we came, Ecc 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10.
There are several scriptures that tell us that when a person dies he knows nothing, sees nothing and cannot praise God, which I am sure if he was alive at all, a person would praise God, Ps 6:3-5, 115:17.
It is true that the human is made up of body, soul and spirit, but they just make up one living being and cannot live if any one is removed, Ps 104:29,30, 1Thes 5:23.

 

[Muffled]

why would Jesus preach only to these 'people' from the days of Noah???

what about all the other people who have died since that time? Why does the verse not tell us that he preached to 'everyone' who has died? Why only to the spirits who were alive in Noahs day???


doesnt that seem at all odd to you??

I believe it covers everyone in the Adamic race. I believe Jesus always sought to reach the Jews first and relied on his apostles to cover the Gentiles.

 

[Muffled]

Just more proof of the ultimate slavation of all people.

I believe that would be great. I will just preach to people and they will be saved. Somehow that hasn't happened for my kin.

 

[Muffled]

it would be very odd if Jesus preached only to the people who died in noahs day and not all of mankind....unless of course its not about the 'people' of noahs day but about the 'spirits' of Noahs day.

Then it makes a whole lot of sense. The spirits are the angels. The bible calls them spirits in a number of verses, ie Psalms 104:4*Making his angels spirits, His ministers a devouring fire


1 Kings 22:21 Finally a spirit came out and stood before Jehovah and said, ‘I myself shall fool him.’ At that Jehovah said to him, ‘By what means?

So angels are called spirits....and the spirits in noahs day are the ones who came down to have relations with the daughters of men....and from these were born the nephilim offspring.

There is no mention of angels but there is a mention of people.

 

[dan p]

what, nobody?

Hi , and there probably any Acts 28 , Hyper-dispensationalist on nthis forum ??

But even some dispensationalist believe in soul sleep as I know one and even believe in Universal Reconciliation of all people !!

dan p

 

[Contemplative Cat]

Conscious afterlife(with no body or brain)

"The self exists in all reality like butter in milk" - sage Vasistha; the conscise yoga vasistha.

 

[Muffled]

Conscious afterlife(with no body or brain)

"The self exists in all reality like butter in milk" - sage Vasistha; the conscise yoga vasistha.

There is the problem with similes, I believe they often do not give an accurate description.

I believe there are two problems with this 1. The concept that the spirit is diffuse when in fact it is finite. ie Butterfat content in milk is diffuse although only homogenization keeps the butterfat content from rising to the top. 2. The idea that the self is diffuse throughout reality is contrary to the finiteness of the spirit.

I do believe in a separation of body and spirit when the body dies and also believe the spirit can depart the body while it is still alive (spirit walking). Certanly NDEs reveal that the spirit can hover over the body when it temporarily dies and the spirit remembers that when the person comes back to life.

 

[jtartar]

Please present you best arguments from Scripture to support them.

Nazz,
I you believe what the Bible says, this is a relatively easy question.
Let me start first with what SOUL means: A breathing animal, either man or other animal. This word soul is used in several ways, even meaning the life of an individual, Gen 2:7, Ecc 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10, Ps 146:3,4, Acts 2:27,31, 3:23 God even had this word written as His life, Ps 11:5, Prov 6:16, several other places.
Interestingly there is a Dictionary word, Psychopannychy, which means when a person dies, his soul dies also, and does not wake up until the person is resurrected.
It is true that Paul mentions the flesh, soul and spirit, but these cannot be separated, without death, just as many other things are made up of several things, but if one is taken away, it is no longer what it was.

 

[Muffled]

Hi , and there probably any Acts 28 , Hyper-dispensationalist on nthis forum ??

But even some dispensationalist believe in soul sleep as I know one and even believe in Universal Reconciliation of all people !!

dan p

I believe once a person has seen a light, he can never forget it even in the darkness. Once a person has the informatio that Jesus was dead but then came back to life, the idea of soul sleep had to seem less likely. After all if Jesus were asleep who woke Him up to be resurrected? Even Jesus says that He is returning to the Father whcih does not equate to going to sleep.

So IMHO the cat is out of the bag.

 

[Muffled]

Nazz,
I you believe what the Bible says, this is a relatively easy question.
Let me start first with what SOUL means: A breathing animal, either man or other animal. This word soul is used in several ways, even meaning the life of an individual, Gen 2:7, Ecc 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10, Ps 146:3,4, Acts 2:27,31, 3:23 God even had this word written as His life, Ps 11:5, Prov 6:16, several other places.
Interestingly there is a Dictionary word, Psychopannychy, which means when a person dies, his soul dies also, and does not wake up until the person is resurrected.
It is true that Paul mentions the flesh, soul and spirit, but these cannot be separated, without death, just as many other things are made up of several things, but if one is taken away, it is no longer what it was.

I don't believe the text proves this. I believe this is speculation.

I believe God is a Spirit as the Bible states and not a breathing animal so unless there is a wish to see Jesus as God and therfore breathing, the concept of Soul as a breathing animal is incorrect.

 

[Muffled]

nazz,
The belief that when a person dies his soul also dies and does not wake up until he is resurrected, called Psycopannychy, and must be true, for I doubt if the dust is alive.
Consider what God said happens to a person when they die, Rev 3:19, we go back to the dust from where we came, Ecc 3:18-20, 9:5,6,10.
There are several scriptures that tell us that when a person dies he knows nothing, sees nothing and cannot praise God, which I am sure if he was alive at all, a person would praise God, Ps 6:3-5, 115:17.
It is true that the human is made up of body, soul and spirit, but they just make up one living being and cannot live if any one is removed, Ps 104:29,30, 1Thes 5:23.

I don't believe the dust is alive but I do believe my spirit is eternal until God decides otherwise and I don't believe in sleeping and I don't believe God forces anyone to sleep.

 

[arcanum]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten


Psalm 115:17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

Isaiah 38:18 For it is not She′ol that can laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness.

John 11:11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz′a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.”

Psalm 104:29 If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go.


Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.

Ezekiel 18:4*Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die

Judges 16:30 And Samson proceeded to say: “Let my soul die with the Phi·lis′tines.”


Acts 3:23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’

Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord

I noticed that most of your quotes came from the Old Testament. One thing that many people don't realize is the whole concept of the afterlife is absent from pre exile Judaism. You will not find anything regarding the afterlife in the Torah. It was only those Jews returning from the exile that you began to see these ideas begin to peculate, the Sadducees continued in the older belief's while the Pharisees, the Essenes and perhaps other groups of Jews came to believe in the afterlife (after exposure to other cultures). This is a very important point, Moses never taught about the afterlife as far we know based on the evidence in the Torah. There are many Jews now and since that never believed in it. Many of the early Christians believed and still believe in a literal resurrection of the dead while others embraced the platonic idea of separate and eternal soul. This I could entertain, literal bodily resurrection is in my opinion very implausible.

 

[Pegg]

I noticed that most of your quotes came from the Old Testament. One thing that many people don't realize is the whole concept of the afterlife is absent from pre exile Judaism. You will not find anything regarding the afterlife in the Torah. It was only those Jews returning from the exile that you began to see these ideas begin to peculate, the Sadducees continued in the older belief's while the Pharisees, the Essenes and perhaps other groups of Jews came to believe in the afterlife (after exposure to other cultures). This is a very important point, Moses never taught about the afterlife as far we know based on the evidence in the Torah. There are many Jews now and since that never believed in it. Many of the early Christians believed and still believe in a literal resurrection of the dead while others embraced the platonic idea of separate and eternal soul. This I could entertain, literal bodily resurrection is in my opinion very implausible.

Thats very true and this is why I dont take the verses in the Christian scritpures to be refering to such an afterlife. Jesus held to the hebrew scriptures...he believed them and taught them and therefore he would not have taught about such an afterlife.

With regard to a bodily resurrection, Jesus himself performed a number of bodily resurrrections to prove that the resurrection was true.

His disciples, and those who witnessed it were in no doubt that the resurrection was a reality. And think about this....if God could create a man (Adam) from the dust, why couldnt he re-create a man from the dust?
When we die, our body is gone...but God did not need a body in order to form Adam....so why can't he simply re-create all those who have died?

 

[arcanum]

Thats very true and this is why I dont take the verses in the Christian scritpures to be refering to such an afterlife. Jesus held to the hebrew scriptures...he believed them and taught them and therefore he would not have taught about such an afterlife.

With regard to a bodily resurrection, Jesus himself performed a number of bodily resurrrections to prove that the resurrection was true.

His disciples, and those who witnessed it were in no doubt that the resurrection was a reality. And think about this....if God could create a man (Adam) from the dust, why couldnt he re-create a man from the dust?
When we die, our body is gone...but God did not need a body in order to form Adam....so why can't he simply re-create all those who have died?

Is it true that JW's only believe the afterlife is for an elect 144,000 and the rest of humanity is basically worm food? Correct me if I'm wrong but is this true?

 

[arcanum]

Come on Pegg, I've asked this a few times and I never get a response from you.

 

[Pegg]

Is it true that JW's only believe the afterlife is for an elect 144,000 and the rest of humanity is basically worm food? Correct me if I'm wrong but is this true?

not quite, no.

Jesus was resurrected to heavenly life...he was resurrected 'in spirit' says the apostles Peter. Those who will join him in heaven are likewise resurrected in spirit.
But revelation calls this resurrection 'the first'
Revelation 20:4-6 And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

Only 144,000 will be among those who will rule as kings with Christ in heaven.

But Jesus said that in the future, 'all' mankind will be resurrected. That might amount to at least another 20 billion people (rough estimate) which is far more then the 144,000.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.


To understand why only 144,000 are said to rule with Christ in heaven, we have to understand that there are two destinations. Jesus spoke of two destinations and two groups of followers.

One he called a 'little flock' and one he called the 'other sheep'
Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.



And he spoke of two destinations, one in heaven, one on earth:

Matt 5:3 “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them...

5 “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.



So our view is as stated in the scriptures here: there are two folds of disciples - one is small in number and bound for heaven. The other is large in number and bound for earth. And with regard in an 'afterlife', we dont believe there is one. We believe what the scriptures say that at death we return to 'dust', and our consciousness ceases to exist. Only when God resurrects the dead will they have an 'afterlife'.... but it wont really be an 'afterlife' as such, it will be the 'real life'