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Featured Song of Genesis 1

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Magus, Sep 16, 2017.

  1. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    This will twist your Hebrew to tongue.

    Joshua 11:8
    Onto the great Zidon, and unto Misrephothmaim, and unto the valley (Biq'ah) of Mizpeh

    'Misrephothmaim' ( מִשְׂרְפוֹת מַיִם) is a transliteration of 'Mesopotamia' ( Middle of Two rivers) , it's geography is placed in Lebanon, or 'Beqaa Valley' ( Coele-Syria ) , the name 'Mesopotamia' refers to the two rivers that flow from this region, 'Orontes and Litani' , The Greek translation of Big'ah is Pedion, which appears in Hebrew 'פַּדָּן' (PDN ) for example in Genesis 25:20 'Arise, go to Padanaram' , in Hebrew 'פַּדֶּנָֽה אֲרָם' ' PDN ARM ', from Gk ' πεδίον ἁρμός ( Plain between two joints) that the Septuagint renders 'Mesopotamia' ( Middle of two rivers ).

    Deuteronomy 3:9
    Zidon call Hermon, Sirion, the Amorites call it שְׂנִיר Shinar

    Song 4:8
    Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir

    Joshua 11:17
    Valley (Biq'ah) of Lebanon under mount Hermon

    Amo 6:2
    Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath

    The Hebrew 'Biq'ah' (בִּקְעָה ) exclusively refers to Beqqa Valley , which is a fertile valley in Eastern Lebanon
    and to this day it is called Biq'ah, Jews are so distant from the Levant, they don't even know it's geography.

    Beqaa Valley - Wikipedia

    Genesis 11:2
    And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain (Biq'ah) in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
    Gen 10:10
    Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

    Zech 12:11 - Mourning of Hadadrimmon (Syrian King) in the valley (Beqaa) of Megiddon
    Songs 7:4 - Tower (Migdol ) of Lebanon

    'Arm-Megiddon means Tower of Syria , 'Armageddon

    ARKI ( עַרְקִי ) ( Aroukaion)
    Erech (אֶרֶךְ ) in the Land of Shinar

    Gen 10:17
    And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,

    Isa 10:9
    Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad is not Samaria as Damascus

    1 Samuel 7:12
    Then Samuel took a stone, and set it between Mizpeh and Shen
     
  2. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    #22 Magus, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  3. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    The root word for Olympus is ἕρμα (ERMA) from Mycenaean Greek 'hermāhās'
    which means 'heap of stones' or 'boundary marker'

    Hermahas > Helmahas > Helmaphas > Olympas

    hermāhās' also the root word for Hermes and Hermon , which is a Mountain
    in Lebanon , In Hebrew it is 'Er Hrmon' but they also named it 'Er Tslmon'
    or 'Er Slmon' that became 'Er Slm' or 'Jerusalem' , also called Zion , from χιών
    meaning Snow.

    Er Hrmon also known as Sion ( Deu 4:48 ) but it was also
    known as 'Er Aleim' ( Mount Elohim ) because Elohim also derives
    from hermāhās as does Ahuramazda or Hormuz

    That is the magic of dialects

    Jerusalem, Olympus, Elohim, Hermes, Shalom and Ahuramazda are cognitive words
     
  4. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    I'm thinking that song is how the Babylonian exile got started.
     
  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Yes?And?

    This is a claim, not a statement of fact until you can back it up.

    התוך is a form of the root נתך.

    Except that melt comes from the Indo-European meldein and מוג comes from Afro-Asiatic.

    Nope. And?


    There's a lot of claims here and not a lot of proven statements.

    No, they flowed. The root נזל means to flow.

    The first word "He will pour" uses the root word נזל to mean "He will make flow", which in English is called "pouring" when used in the context of making water flow out of a bucket.

    The word for water here is not a form of the root נזל its simply the regular word for water: מים.

    The word here is literally "flowings". Flowings down a mountain are called streams or rivers in English.

    I'm not really sure what you're trying to do here other than bring examples where the root NZL means flowing.

    Only? How many would be a lot?

    That is assuming that Eil Paran and the Paran desert are the same place. It's not. Eil Paran is the Paran plain. Mount Paran is located in the Paran desert. They may neighbor each other but they are not identical.

    The actual location of the original Mt. Sinai remains disputed today.

    You're question is missing some information:
    Who is the "they" that are jumping?
    Where did Sinai come from in a list including Seir and Hermon?
    Where did Hermon come from in a list including Sinai and Seir?

    Mt. Sinai's location is unknown.
    Seir is the mountainous range located between Israel and Jordan from the Dead Sea down to the Gulf.
    Hermon is a mountain in Lebanon.
    Mt. Paran's location is unknown, frankly because the desert it is meant to be in is unknown.
     
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  6. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    @Magus , just out of curiosity, what background do you have in linguistics or Biblical studies?
     
  7. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    I have identified Mount Sinai as Mount Hermon.

    You seem to be ignoring the context that the mountain is full of Snow which during the summer, it melts into the stream thus feeds the rivers fresh water, why is that so difficult to understand.

    הִתּוּךְ ' hittuwk ' 'melt down' ( transition of metals)
    צוּק ' Tsuk ' ' melt down , pour out '
    τήκω 'thkw ' melt down' ( transition of metals)

    Cognate with the English word Thaw .

    Here are the Greek and Hebrew cognates i have discovered
    רוּחַ (Ruh ) 'current of air ', it's cognate in Gk is ῥόῳ (Rhoo) meaning 'stream, flow of water, current' .
    יֶרַח (Yrh ) 'moon / month ' Gk cognate 'ὥρα (Ora) , Avestan *Yara, English word *Year
    חָם (Khm) 'heat' Gk καῦμα (Kauma) 'heat'
    מוֹרִיָּה (Mwrie) ' Gk μορία (Moria) 'sacred olives'
    גְּבִיר (Gbur) 'mighty' κύριο (Kbrio ) 'mighty'
    פַּדֶּנָֽה (Pnde) 'plain ' Gk πεδίον (Pedion) ' plain'
    גִּלָּיוֹן (Klion) 'cylinder' Gk κύλινδρος (Kulindoros)
     
  8. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    I was always interested in etymology, influences would be my grandmother, I have studied the Old Testament for about 7 years
    now and i find the English translations unsatisfying , I so began to learn Hebrew, but i find the Masoretic to be unsatisfying, but there is an older Old Testament, called the Septuagint, so i learn some Ancient Greek.

    Here is a verse from the Bible, that makes no sense what so ever.

    Psalms 81:16 ' honey out of the rock '

    The Hebrew word in that verse for rock is צוּר (Tsur ) meaning rocky cliff , always
    means a boulder or a rock.

    This is the Hebrew word for honeycomb צוּף (Tsup ) , in both the Septuagint and the Masoretic
    use words meaning Rock, in Gk 'Petras' , the Hebrew-Phoenician letters for P and T are very similar
    in shape.

    Psalms 81:16 ' honey out of a honeycomb ' ( my translation )

    Now it makes sense, yet every translation says 'honey comes from a rock'
    'honey from the rocky cliffs' ( NET)
    honey from the rock ( NIV )
     
  9. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Yet, Canaan has rocky cliffs that honeybees made their hives in. It could mean just what it said.
     
  10. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Some editor went through the Hebrew scriptures and turned צוּף (Tsup ) into צוּר (Tsur ), easily done with the letter-shape, ר > ף but they mistakenly changed it in Psalm 81:16.

    Thus odd passages such as this.

    1 Samuel 2:2 - there any rock like our God
    2 Samuel 22:3 - The God of my rock ( Grammar error )
    2 Samuel 22:32 - For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock
    Psalms 18:2 - God, my strength (=Rock)
    Psalms 28:1 - The LORD is my rock,
    Psalms 62:2 - The LORD is my rock
    Psalms 94:22 - God is the rock
    Habbakkuk 1:21 - O mighty God (Rock
    Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock

    Let's take 2 Samuel 22:3 as an example, the word 'Rock'
    does not appear in the Septuagint , it instead
    begins 'ὁ θεός'

    Psalms 18:2 ' God my Rock'
    'אֵלִי צוּרִי' in the Septuagint is 'ὁ θεός'

    Only in the Masoretic text is God a Rock, in the Septuagint, God is not a Rock, the Gk word for Rock does not appear in any of those passages, but remember, the Septuagint is Older then the masoretic text

    אֵלִי צוּרִי > ὁ θεός

    As you know in Arabic, names are prefixed AL , which is called a definite article,
    in Greek, it is ὁ , In Hebrew , it's the same as it is in Arabic אל in fact
    the Canaanite god was called.

    Ancient Greek grammar as a rule, that a Deity is prefixed with an article, ὁ ( O Zeus ) and this is true in Latin and Arabic, so why does Hebrew break that rule?

    אל ( ὁ ) צוּרִי (θεός )

    Psalms 94:22
    אלה ( ὁ ) צור (θεός )

    Genesis 28:3
    אל ( ὁ ) שדי (θεός )

    Shadday does not exist in the Septuagint either.

    So why would a definite article be translated, as if it meant 'God
    else, the name Allah in Hebrew would literally be ' God God' , remember, that
    Arabic came from Aramaic-Hebrew, so Allah as a cognate in Hebrew which
    appears in Genesis 14:18

    אל עליון

    Arabic is much closer to Aramaic then it is in Hebrew, Here
    is Daniel 4:2 'the high God ' that is 'אלהא עליא'
    which is 'elahh `illay' , 'אלהא' is a definitate
    article 'The' , it even exists in Latin as 'ille '

    'Magnus ille Alexander' ( Alexander the Great ')

    Any Jews or Hebrews, go ahead and write the Arabic 'Allah
    into Hebrew and prove my point.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    If you translated "rock" to mean "honeycomb" (ps 81:16), the are you saying that "God is my rock" should also be translated "God is my honeycomb" and "He is my rock" to "He is my honeycomb"?
     
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  12. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    I looked up the Greek source, I looked up the Hebrew source. None seem to mention Hermon.

    So can I ask where you are getting your version of the Septuagint and Hebrew sources??
     
  13. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    the editors glossed over Psalm 81:16 and accidentally changed צוּף (Tsup ) into צוּר (Tsur ) and
    no where in the Septuagint is God ever called a Rock. the Septuagint renders 'צוּר' as 'Theos ', the
    editors were suppressing the name of a God
     
  14. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Elohim is the name of a mountain and appears in Exodus 3:1 ' Mountain of Elohim '
    and in Eze 28:14 and Eze 28:16 ' Mountain of Elohim ' , that is located in Eden or Lebanon
    the real world name is Mount Hermon .

    The first few words of Genesis is re'shiyth meaning 'in the summit '
    from רֹאשׁ 'Top of a mountain '

    Hermon derives from ἕρμα meaning heap of stones or boundary marker, it goes all the
    way back to Linear B , 'hermāhās ' which is also the root word for Olympus

    Hermahas > Helmahas > Helmaphas > Olympas + Elohim

    Mount Hermon marks the boundary between Lebenon and Syria and thus
    the name , the name is synonym with the Greek σημεῖον (Shmeion)
    in Aramaic ' שְׁמַיִן (SMIN) into Hebrew שָׁמַיִם (SMIM ) meaning Heaven / Sky

    I use the name 'Hermon because that's the name as it is today
     
  15. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    So let me see if I follow your logic here: Some verses use the phrase "mêhar ’ĕlōhîm" and "bəhar ’ĕlōhîm", and your interpretation of that is that it does not refer to "Mountain of Elohim" but rather "Mount Elohim", with Elohim being the name of that mountain rather than the possessor of the mountain.

    So I must ask a question: If I am meant to interpret that "Elohim" is the name of a mountain from the phrase "bəhar ’ĕlōhîm", when the same book says things like "gan ’ĕlōhîm" like it does in Ezekiel 28:13, should I not interpret that to mean that "Elohim" is the name of a garden, not the garden's owner??

    Ezekiel uses both phrases, so I must ask you the following:

    Is Elohim a Mountain, in which case why does Ezekiel also apply the term of "Garden" to it??

    Is Elohim a Garden, in which case why does Ezekiel also apply the term of "Mountain" to it??

    Or is Elohim the possessor of both the Mountain and the Garden, which is separate from the possessor in the sentence??

    Leaving all of that aside, though, even if you can read from Ezekiel that "Elohim" is the name of a mountain but somehow is not the name of a garden, then how did you leap from that phrase, to identifying Hermon specifically as the mountain to which this supposed name refers??



    Ehhh... are you referring to the term "bərêšîṯ" or "בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית" in Genesis 1:1?? I can't find anything else that seems to match your term here.

    And "רֹאשׁ" can mean mountain summit, but also can mean head, as in the body part, or a leadership position. It can also mean start or beginning. So what proof do you have that your synonym use there is the correct one??

    Usually in the scriptures I can find with the word used to mean "mountaintop" the word "mountain" is also used in the sentence to give it that context. So where is the context given in Genesis 1:1??

    Further, the whole phrase "bərêšîṯ", which is the phrase used in genesis which contains the word "head/start/top", is used elsewhere in the bible:

    Jeremiah 26:1
    Jeremiah 27:1
    Jeremiah 28:1
    Jeremiah 49:34

    In those above cases of Jeremiah, it is clear the whole phrase refers to the start of a time, not the top of a mountain. You cannot possibly construe the Jeremiah usages to mean a head in relation to a mountain (though I think it might be entertaining to see you try :p ).

    So, logically, if it is used 4/5 times to mean the "head" of a time period explicitly, and not a mountain, then logically the fifth usage of "bərêšîṯ" is also probably also about a time period and not a mountain.



    Why is the etymology for Hermon even important if it is, as you say, only the modern name for the mountain and not any scriptural name??
     
  16. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    The Hebrew 'רֵאשִׁ֖ is cognate with the word REX meaning king or chief
    cognate with the Gk Arke

    Deuteronomy 1:15
    So I took the chief ( רֹאשׁ) of your tribes

    Numbers 3:35
    And the chief ( נָשִׂיא) ( nasiy' ) of the house
    In Septuagint, that is ἄρχων ( Arkon )

    נָשִׂיא ( nasiy' ) appears in Psalms 135:7

    Psalms 135:7
    He causeth ( נָשִׂיא) the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth

    Jeremiah 10:3
    he causeth the vapours ( נָשִׂיא) to ascend from the ends of the earth

    The Gk word for Nasiy' is ἀνάγω (Anago) from ἄναξ (Anax) meaning 'King' but also deriving into our English word 'Nose

    Eden is the area around Mt Hermon , the mountainous snow melts from the rain and it feeds the streams and rivers

    Rain "burns the snow"

    Gen 2:6
    But there went up (עָלָה ) a mist (Fire-brand) from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

    Mic 1:4 ( the melting snow of Mount Hermon )
    And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft
    as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

    These streams around Mount Hermon and are collectively known
    as יַרְדֵּן (Jordan) ( descender ) from Eri-Danus (Early-burn) , the Second River of
    Eden is called Gihon .

    Jeremiah 12:5
    swelling of Jordan

    Jeremiah 50:44
    like a lion from the swelling of Jordan

    Reads those verses in Hebrew, 'מִגְּאֹון הַיַּרְדֵּן ' too reveal
    the second river of Eden ' 'Ga'own, form Gk Khion meaning snow,.

    Lion ( ARI) from the swelling (Gihon) of Jordan
    this is 'Litani River, or Leontes ( Lion River)

    Deuteronomy 3:8
    river of Arnon unto mount Hermon;

    Deuteronomy 4:48
    From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion, which is Hermon,

    Arnon derives from ARI meaning ' Lion '

    Did you know, 'Jordan' is never called a river in the entire Old Testament ?
    Go ahead and find 'River Jordan' , the first appearance of Jordan in genesis 13:10

    Gen 13:10 - the plain of Jordan was well watered

    Jordan is synonym with Eden ( fire-brand ) and ' יְאֹר דָּם ' IAR DM '
     
    #36 Magus, Sep 18, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
  17. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    So from this I gather your reasoning is thus: Because the plain of Jordan is mentioned in early works and some other mentions of Hermon exist in the text you therefore conclude that the Hermon is the mountain referred to when Ezekiel says "Mountain of God". I still think that's rather a leap in logic to make, but fine.

    You still haven't made any attempt to explain how "Mountain of Elohim" can be interpreted as "Elohim is the name of a mountain". Again, if that is logical than why isn't Elohim the name of a garden??

    Yeah and when "'רֵאשִׁ֖" is a part of "בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית" it means neither leader nor mountaintop. So what is your point here??
     
  18. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Deut. 32:13

    No. In Hebrew the definite article is ה, not אל.

    The Canaanite god was called El because el means god. In Arabic, the cognate is ilah, not al.

    The question should be, it is known that some Indo-European languages use a definite article prefix to some before a deity. How did find its way to Arabic?

    I don't know the answer, but a quick look on Wikipedia at the pre-Islamic pantheon shows that not all deities received this prefix. From the list of about 40, it looks like only two or three did.

    All-h would not be "G-d G-d" in Hebrew. The first ال is a prefix, not a standalone word. If you open up the contraction of All-h, you get alIlah not al Ilah (that's an upper case i in front of the lower case l). If a Hebrew speaker were to see this transliterated (אלאלה), it would look like alalah, which is not a word. If someone didn't know Arabic grammar and thought that you could separate the prefix from the word and then transliterated them into Hebrew, it would look like (אל אלה) which would immediately be translated as "to these". If you wanted to write two ways of saying G-d, you might write א-ל אלו-ה (E-l Elo-ah as opposed to al Ila-h). But that has a different pronunciation.

    The Arabic definite article is the prefix ال (al) In Hebrew definite article is the prefix ה (ha). In Aramaic its די (di). In later Aramaic and Syriac its the prefix ד (d).

    You can find a discussion of the relationship between the Arabic ال and the Hebrew ה, here.

    The Hebrew word אל means "to", "don't" or "G-d". Changing the meaning of this word will make reading Biblical Hebrew - and in fact any Hebrew text very difficult.

    In Aramaic, especially Daniel, the definite article (the few times its actually used as such) is . In fact, there's a definite article right before the very same words just a few verses earlier in 3:26:
    עבדוהי די אלקא עליא
    servants of / the / G-d / high

    Its true that Arabic is much closer to Aramaic then to Hebrew. But there are still plenty of differences between Arabic and Aramaic.

    Maybe Arabic got it from Latin.

    Allah is spelled אללה. Its a contraction of ال إله - the G-d, transliterated into Hebrew would be אל אלה. It shares a root with the Aramaic אלק and the Hebrew אל (per below).

    In Aramaic there are actually two spellings for G-d, one is אלק and the other is אלקא. Similarly, in Hebrew there is אל (which becomes אלים) and אלוק (which becomes אלקים). Although I don't know fore sure, it looks to me like the two words from each language respectively are counterparts of the other.
     
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  19. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    So a lot of weird linguistic tricks that don't actually work.

    But my main question is: What is the point?? I don't understand what the motives of the OP are, or what this would be meant to show, even if the OP's translations and ideas were linguistically valid (which they appear not to be)??
     
  20. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    All Hebrews scholars will agree that אל is also a definite article, now
    the Hebrew for Allah, would be 'אל עליון ' and this is from the
    Greek 'ὁ ἠέλιον or ὁ ἠελίου ( The Helios ) , the predecessors of Allah
    is Ilāh hag-Gabal yet it is written Heliogabalus .

    Gk. ὁ θεὸς (With God) ἄ θεος (Without God )
    Hb. יְהֹוָה אֶל (With God ) יְהֹוָה לֹא ( Without God )

    ' ὁ ' is identical in meaning to the particle 'אֶל' , meaning 'to, into, towards'

    They are other prefix articles , one of which is εὖ (ev) which means 'to be' , in Persian it is 'ye' and 'heye' , Hebrew 'הָיָה' , variants are Eimi and Emi , another
    is ἄγη (Agh) or אֲחִי

    ἠμῐ́ - EMI 'עַמִּי' ( Ami )
    εὖ - EB 'אֲבִי ' ( Abi ) and 'יְהוֹ (Yev )

    All of these articles interchange .

    εὔνοος (Evnoos) 'well-disposed, kindly, friendly '
    אֲבִינֹעַם (Abinoam) 'well-disposed, kindly, friendly'

    They are identical in meaning, were-as the Lexicon
    would say it means 'My father is kindly '

    εὐίατος ( Euiatos) 'easy to heal'
    אֶבְיָתָר (Abiather) ' easy to heal '

    ἀγαθός ( Agathos) 'goodly '
    'אֲחִיטוּב' (Ahitub ) ' goodly '

    'εὖ'= Yeu
    εὖ-σέβω ' pious '
    שׁוּע יְהוֹ ( ev shev·ä)

    The name Joshua, people are pronouncing this as if
    it were written Yehooeh (יְהֹעעה ) or Yahshua , in fact
    the Hebraic letter וּ became the letter F and ע became
    O and עע became W or ω (O Mega) ,

    It be like pronouncing Fire as Wire, or Feel as Weel.

    A - Alef - Alpha - Α
    B - Bet - Beta - Β
    C - Gimel - Gamma - Γ
    D - Dalet - Delta - Δ
    E - He - Epsilon - Ε
    F - Vav - Digamma - Ϝ

    Where are people getting W from , W is a double-vowel
    in fact the letter is literally called 'double o ' ( double Ayin )
    as in עע = W = ω

    פרעה Φαραω (Pharoo )

    Since Φαραω begins with Φ that derives from the Hebraic letter Qoph, then it is also written קָרעה ( Ka rah ) from קָרַח 'to make bald ' , to prove that point, the Hebraic word for 'to have long hair' is 'פֶּרַע' and the root word is 'κάρα meaning Head and גִּבֵּחַ (ghiba ) means 'bald forehead' and Hebrews wear a כִּיפָּה ( Kippa ) but Latins wear a 'Petasi' or a Pileus

    (קֵינִי) QINI > PHINI 'φοίνι '
    (קְנִזִּי ) QINIZ > PHINIC 'φοίνικ ' Phoenicians '
     
    #40 Magus, Sep 18, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2017
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