Something my dad said.

[Frank Goad]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:

Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

 

[Bree]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:

Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

the WT explains this account as Paul describing a vision he himself had. But it was a vision and not some kind of immaterial conscious state of life.

I guess Paul's account shows that these visions were something unique, unusual and not something the person experiencing it had any control over. So it is a special privilege to be touched by God in this way. And even though the person receiving such an experience may not fully understand or comprehend its meaning, we can be sure of 1 thing...and that is that God knows the meaning and will reveal it in due time when we need to know what it mean.

 

[1213]

...
What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

Because of Luke 16:22-31 I think when person dies, his soul/spirit goes to “Hades” or to “Abraham’s bosom”. And there they wait until the judgment day. Then they all will be raised and those who are righteous will have eternal life and the rest the second death.

It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’ “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”
Luke 16:22-31

I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[2ndpillar]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:

Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

Saint Paul's disease, a form of epilepsy, whose symptoms include blindness, fainting, and having visions, would best explain Paul's life on earth, except that Zechariah 11:7-10, seems to indicate that the Lord God used Paul to "pasture" the "flock doomed for slaughter", and according to Paul, Satan had his part in directing the path of Paul, by gifting Paul with a pain in the side. Being as "false prophets" (Matthew 7:13-23), such as Paul, lead to people to "destruction", it might be wise to steer clear of what Paul says.

 

[Frank Goad]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:

Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

the WT explains this account as Paul describing a vision he himself had. But it was a vision and not some kind of immaterial conscious state of life.

I guess Paul's account shows that these visions were something unique, unusual and not something the person experiencing it had any control over. So it is a special privilege to be touched by God in this way. And even though the person receiving such an experience may not fully understand or comprehend its meaning, we can be sure of 1 thing...and that is that God knows the meaning and will reveal it in due time when we need to know what it mean.

Can you explain the part I put in bold please?

 

[nPeace]

Can you explain the part I put in bold please?

Hey Frank. According to the explanation, Paul did not go anywhere... physically, that is. So, for one thing, there would have been no out of body experience. For another, it not possible to leave the body, since you are not a ghost, or living being inside a body.
According to the Bible, the inner person is spiritual. That is, the person you are on the inside - the heart (not the beating physical heart) .

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:
Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.
What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

Along with Ps 115 I find in harmony Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3 besides Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
If you turn to 2 Peter 3:5; 2 Peter 3:7; 2 Peter 3:13 you will find three (3) heavens and (3)earth mentioned.
1) Verse 5 is about the OLD heavens of Noah's day.
2) Verse 7 is about Noah's day down to our NOW day.
3) Verse 13 is the paradisical NEW heavens and earth that we are awaiting.
As the heavens of OLD ( Noah's day ) were governmental heavens under the control of people.
As the heavens of NOW ( our day or time frame ) are governmental heavens under the control of people.
As the heavens of NEW (Jesus' 1,000 year day) the governmental heavens will be under the control of Jesus.
Remember: Paul at his time did Not have the details as we do today - Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9
Seems as if Paul did have a glimpse or foregleam of how beautiful earth will be under Christ's regulations.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Because of Luke 16:22-31 I think when person dies, his soul/spirit goes to “Hades” or to “Abraham’s bosom”. And there they wait until the judgment day. Then they all will be raised and those who are righteous will have eternal life and the rest the second death.





It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’ “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”
Luke 16:22-31
I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Luke chapter 16 is about illustrations ( parables ) and Not real happenings.- Matthew 13:34-36; Mark 4:34.
Both the 'righteous and unrighteous' will be resurrected on 'Resurrection Day' I find at Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
( 'Resurrection Day' meaning: Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )
The wicked are the ones destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
What the resurrected do ' after ' they are resurrected will determine everlasting life on Earth or not.

As for those of us still alive at Jesus' coming 'Glory Time' (Matthew 25:31-33,37) the figurative humble 'sheep' can remain alive on Earth and see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000 year reign over Earth.

 

[alex2165]

I think Paul's out-of-body experience was true and real.


To say exactly what it was, a vision, a dream, or something else, is impossible.


But temporary separation of body and soul is reality.


In some instances a Spirit of GOD can take human being to far away places and show something that no one can see.


I think GOD shows to Paul something that we even can imagine, and this was done not only for the Paul's sake to strengthen his faith, actually Paul already have strong unshakable faith, but perhaps mostly for us, to learn from Paul's experience that is something really beautiful, wonderful, and utterly splendid lies beyond the realm of our perception of the physical and spiritual worlds.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But temporary separation of body and soul is reality.
In some instances a Spirit of GOD can take human being to far away places and show something that no one can see............................

Yes, God's spirit I find does God's will, His purpose to carry out what He wishes - Psalms 104:30
However, I find No separation of body and soul where Adam was concerned.
ALL of Adam ' returned ' to where Adam started - Genesis 3:19; Genesis 2:7.
At his death Adam became a dead soul, a lifeless soul or person.
Adam was only offered everlasting life on Earth as long as he obeyed his God.
Adam was never offered any separation from any part of himself.
Like Adam, Paul was a living soul, a living person, so there was No separation of body from soul.
So, as Adam was a living soul, Paul was a living soul, and while we are alive we are a living soul or living person.

 

[Muffled]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:

Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

I believe the Psalm does not speak about anything spiritual. It is simply a statement that a dead body can't speak praise.

 

[Muffled]

I think Paul's out-of-body experience was true and real.


To say exactly what it was, a vision, a dream, or something else, is impossible.


But temporary separation of body and soul is reality.


In some instances a Spirit of GOD can take human being to far away places and show something that no one can see.


I think GOD shows to Paul something that we even can imagine, and this was done not only for the Paul's sake to strengthen his faith, actually Paul already have strong unshakable faith, but perhaps mostly for us, to learn from Paul's experience that is something really beautiful, wonderful, and utterly splendid lies beyond the realm of our perception of the physical and spiritual worlds.

I believe Paul's confusion arises from the fact that a vision can seem very real as though you are in it bodily.

 

[Frank Goad]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:

Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

I don't get the part in bold.I looked through all the other posts and it looked like nobody has answered this question before.The part I am talking about is the post right above me.Quoted from my first post.I still believe in Psalms 115:17.

 

[Bree]

I don't get the part in bold.I looked through all the other posts and it looked like nobody has answered this question before.The part I am talking about is the post right above me.Quoted from my first post.I still believe in Psalms 115:17.

It really needs no explanation. Paul admits that he did not know if it was a vision in his mind or if he was actually physically taken to this future place (the third heaven being the Messianic Kingdom to come)

This only adds to the credibility of Paul. He wasnt making this up.... he was quite honestly relaying what he saw. If he was deliberately making up a story to try and convince people that he was an apostle of God then he would never have said he 'did not know'


Not everythign has to have an answer It didnt matter to Paul if he was there physically or only in his mind.... the point is that he was given a vision of the future heavenly kingdom with Jesus Christ as its ruler. The future was assured.

 

[Frank Goad]

Soul Sleep - Apologetics My dad showed me this website that had this on it:

Later in the same epistle (see 2 Cor. 12:2-4) Paul described “a man” who, fourteen years before his writing, had been caught up “to the third heaven” or “Paradise.” Most New Testament scholars believe he was talking about himself. In any case, Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

What do you think of this? To answer my dad I showed my dad Psalms 115:17.

It really needs no explanation. Paul admits that he did not know if it was a vision in his mind or if he was actually physically taken to this future place (the third heaven being the Messianic Kingdom to come)

This only adds to the credibility of Paul. He wasnt making this up.... he was quite honestly relaying what he saw. If he was deliberately making up a story to try and convince people that he was an apostle of God then he would never have said he 'did not know'


Not everythign has to have an answer It didnt matter to Paul if he was there physically or only in his mind.... the point is that he was given a vision of the future heavenly kingdom with Jesus Christ as its ruler. The future was assured.

Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.How did paul think of the out of body option to begin with?This doesn't go with Psalms 115:17.

 

[nPeace]

I think Paul's out-of-body experience was true and real.


To say exactly what it was, a vision, a dream, or something else, is impossible.


But temporary separation of body and soul is reality.


In some instances a Spirit of GOD can take human being to far away places and show something that no one can see.


I think GOD shows to Paul something that we even can imagine, and this was done not only for the Paul's sake to strengthen his faith, actually Paul already have strong unshakable faith, but perhaps mostly for us, to learn from Paul's experience that is something really beautiful, wonderful, and utterly splendid lies beyond the realm of our perception of the physical and spiritual worlds.

I do believe that God can transfer a person, either physically, or spiritually.
You said there can be temporary separation of body and soul. Can you explain this, for the benefit of Frank, and myself?
Also, what do you mean by "a Spirit of GOD can take human being to far away places"... Are you saying the human being - Paul - was carried away? Then is the human being the soul, or the body?
I'm curious as to your belief on Matthew 4:5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple.
How did the Devil take Jesus, and station him atop the temple?

 

[nPeace]

Paul twice stated, that he did not know if the man “had been taken up in the body” or “out of the body.” If no conscious existence apart from the body can exist, then he would have to have been “in the body.” But Paul said only “God knows,” implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.How did paul think of the out of body option to begin with?This doesn't go with Psalms 115:17.

In other words, in reality - “in the body", as in the case of the transfiguration, where the disciples actually thought they were seeing a real event, or in a vision - “out of the body", as in the case of the transfiguration, when the disciples realized they were seeing a vision, and not a real event.
Matthew 17:1-9

 

[nPeace]

I believe Paul's confusion arises from the fact that a vision can seem very real as though you are in it bodily.

Hey. We actually agree!

 

[syo]

implying at least the possibility of an immaterial conscious state of life.

Show me an immaterial.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, God's spirit I find does God's will, His purpose to carry out what He wishes - Psalms 104:30
However, I find No separation of body and soul where Adam was concerned.
ALL of Adam ' returned ' to where Adam started - Genesis 3:19; Genesis 2:7.
At his death Adam became a dead soul, a lifeless soul or person.
Adam was only offered everlasting life on Earth as long as he obeyed his God.
Adam was never offered any separation from any part of himself.
Like Adam, Paul was a living soul, a living person, so there was No separation of body from soul.
So, as Adam was a living soul, Paul was a living soul, and while we are alive we are a living soul or living person.

Yes... and the life that we have, can be taken away - gone.
The dust returns to the ground, from whence it came.