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Featured Something I found on the internet about luke 16:19-31

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, Oct 27, 2020.

  1. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    POST TWO OF TWO

    One such account is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the risen Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

    In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades in his answer to Bartholomew saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)

    The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there. Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :

    “Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

    These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were neither Christians nor baptized while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

    “We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

    I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel to individuals such as the sons of Rabi Simeon, and many testified of gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.

    The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”



    GOSPEL PRINCIPLES ARE TAUGHT TO THOSE PRESENT

    Seth
    then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly. This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen.

    In chapter four, Satan adjure Hades to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

    The sons of Symeon continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “


    SONS OF SYMEON BELIEVE, CONVERT AND BECOME WITNESSES OF GOSPEL PRINCIPLES

    Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify
    : "All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)

    Even Symeons sons were authorized by Michael and sent to teach of the resurrection of Jesus. However FIRST, they were appointed by Michael to “first to go to the Jordan and be baptized.” “There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again.”

    The new Testament relates a similar witness of resurrected individuals in Matthew 27:52, when it describes how "The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…".


    In any case @Miken, I hope your own models as to what the world of spirits is like remains rational and insightful and historically coherent. Good journey Miken

    Clear
    φυτζτζω
     
    #41 Clear, Oct 28, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
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  2. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I'm not in the habit of changing the meaning of words so that they fit my ideas.

    The word "mortal" means 'subject to death'. If we add "im" to the beginning of the word it means 'NOT subject to death', and therefore gives the word the opposite meaning.

    A soul that is mortal is therefore subject to death. A soul that is 'IM'mortal is not subject to death. If God is able to destroy or kill a soul, then the soul is NOT immortal but mortal.

    The idea that man has an immortal soul/spirit that lives on when the body dies is false. And that's why the scripture NEVER mentions such an absurd thing.

    An immortal soul/spirit does NOT need saving from death because it is NOT subject to it.
     
  3. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    @Clear
    You have provided many interesting things and supporting documentation. I have much to do today starting very soon and I will not get around to responding for a while. One point that I will expand on further when I can: In early Judaism, those who died and who went to Sheol were simply dead and not conscious. There was no personal resurrection. This changed as the concept of future national salvation evolved into future personal salvation. More to come when I can.
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    As I said the soul is immortal..meaning it's not subject to death..
    The soul is eternal life..not subject to death..
    Only God as the power to destroy the soul.

    As The Lord Jesus Christ said in
    Matthew 10:28--"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

    Therefore only God can destroy the soul.
     
  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If a soul can be destroyed then it/he is NOT immortal. So, why is it that the majority of Christian sects teach that the soul is immortal if it /he is not?
     
  6. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Miken


    Miken said : “One point that I will expand on further when I can: In early Judaism, those who died and who went to Sheol were simply dead and not conscious. There was no personal resurrection” (post #43)

    These are two unusual claims regarding ancient Judaism, especially given the significant amount of early Jewish literature that describes the consciousness and conditions of the Dead. For example, the Talmud, which is a profoundly important text in Judaism itself describes the consciousness and condition of the dead as well as a great deal of early literature. Are you sure you are speaking of ancient Judaism? If so, WHICH judaism are you referring to and of which time period?

    Perhaps you can provide some examples from early Judeo-Christian literature which demonstrates this claim you are making and I can provide references that show the early Jewish and Judeo-Christian belief in conscious spirits after death.

    Also, regarding your theory that Jews did not believe in a “personal resurrection”. Perhaps you can provide examples from the earliest Judeo-Christian literature that supports this theory and we can compare that with literature that demonstrates the early belief in personal resurrection.


    Again, I hope your own spiritual journey is pleasant and satisfying and wonderful.


    Clear
    φυσετω
     
    #46 Clear, Oct 28, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  7. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Great post!
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Especially when un-faithful Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted Greek mythology.
    Not 'wheat' Christians, but what developed was 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ) the fake 'weed/tares'. Acts 20:28-30.
    Or, just as Jesus said that MANY would come in his name but prove false as per Matthew 7:21-23.
    Genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together with the fake ' weed/tares ' Christians until the Harvest Time.
    The Harvest Time or the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, Adam was mortal and could only keep on living if he obeyed his God.
    So, at death ALL of Adam died ' returning ' to the dust where Adam started - Genesis 3:19
    A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
    There was No post-mortem penalty for Adam, No double jeopardy just paying for his sin with the total price tag of death - Romans 6:23,7
     
  11. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    That really seems to be the main point of the parable.

    Jesus had said "beware of the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees". And Acts 3:28 speaks of the difference of beliefs between the Sadducees and Pharisees.
    The Sadducees denied the resurrection of the dead, and of angels and spirits. But the Pharisees believed in both angels and spirits.
    The spirits which the Pharisees believed were spirits of dead men. The idea that man has a spirit or ghost which leaves the body when it dies.

    Thus we have the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

    But Jesus, speaking as Abraham, tells the rich man that his brother's need to hear Moses and the prophets.

    And if they can hear Moses, as you point out, they would know that spirits or ghost of dead men don't exist because man returns to his native earth when he dies. He returns to the dust of which he is made.

    And even Abraham, of the parable, knew that!

    "And Abraham answered and said, Behold, I pray, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, and I am dust and ash." Gen 18:27
     
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  12. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Judaism is ancient. The Talmud does not qualify as ancient, the components having been written between 200 and 500 CE.

    Try these:

    Ecclesiastes 9
    5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun

    Definitely unconscious and non-communicative. Also sounds a lot like dead forever.

    Ecclesiastes 12
    7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    The spirit does not go to Sheol, it goes back where it came from.


    Job 7
    7 “Remember that my life is a breath;
    my eye will never again see good.
    8 The eye of him who sees me will behold me no more;
    while your eyes are on me, I shall be gone.
    9 As the cloud fades and vanishes,
    so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;
    10 he returns no more to his house,
    nor does his place know him anymore.

    No return from death.

    Job 14 is often used as proof of an old belief in a resurrection, but it is actually the opposite. Job wishes he could be hidden away and brought back to life when God’s wrath has passed. But this is a vain hope. It is not going to happen.

    Job 14
    7 “For there is hope for a tree,
    if it be cut down, that it will sprout again,

    and that its shoots will not cease.
    8 Though its root grow old in the earth,
    and its stump die in the soil,
    9 yet at the scent of water it will bud
    and put out branches like a young plant.
    10 But a man dies and is laid low;
    man breathes his last, and where is he?

    11 As waters fail from a lake
    and a river wastes away and dries up,
    12 so a man lies down and rises not again;
    till the heavens are no more he will not awake
    or be roused out of his sleep.

    13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol,
    that you would conceal me until your wrath be past,

    that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    14 If a man dies, shall he live again?
    All the days of my service I would wait,
    till my renewal should come.

    15 You would call, and I would answer you;
    you would long for the work of your hands.
    16 For then you would number my steps;
    you would not keep watch over my sin;
    17 my transgression would be sealed up in a bag,
    and you would cover over my iniquity.
    18 But the mountain falls and crumbles away,
    and the rock is removed from its place;

    19 the waters wear away the stones;
    the torrents wash away the soil of the earth;
    so you destroy the hope of man.
    20 You prevail forever against him, and he passes;
    you change his countenance, and send him away.
    21 His sons come to honor, and he does not know it;
    they are brought low, and he perceives it not.
     
  13. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    Don't forget Job 19:25-27; I'd hate to see you quote him out of context.
     
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  14. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    What is your source? What are the authors credentials?
    Luke is the most egregious in taking OT stories and transforming them into NT stories (line by line) so it's highly unlikely the entire thing isn't a made up story.
     
  15. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Perhaps you would care to put Job 19:25-27 in context by explaining

    Who is Job talking to in Job 19?
    What is he complaining about?
    Hint: Job 19:21-22

    Why would Job want his words written in a book or inscribed in rock? (Job 19:23-24)
    What words is he talking about?

    How does Job 19:28-29 fit in?
    Who is supposed to be afraid of the sword and why?

    Explain those and then look at Job 19:25-27 and understand what Job is saying.
    In particular explain why Job should suddenly be talking about an alleged resurrection
    ...considering what is going on in this chapter
    ...and taking into account what Job means by "And after my skin, they have cut into this" in v26
    ... this being the actual translation of the Hebrew not what KJV claims
    What is it he is really saying he is going to be redeemed from?


    I would hate to see you quote him out of context.
     
    #55 Miken, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Could it be we are trying to interpret it in a modern day interpretation vs a Hebraic understanding with the wording of its time?

    My understanding is that "sleep" refers to the body as it is temporarily separated from the soul.

    According to another midrash, sleep, like death, temporarily separates body and soul (Genesis Rabbah 14:9)

    body-soul

    I believe that God is a God of the living and not of the sleeping.
     
  17. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Miken said : “In early Judaism, those who died and who went to Sheol were simply dead and not conscious. There was no personal resurrection” (post #43)


    Hi @Miken


    REGARDING THE YOUR HISTORICAL THEORY THAT ANCIENT JEWS BELIEVED SPIRITS IN SHEOL/HADES/HELL/SPIRIT WORLD (whatever one calls it) WERE NOT CONSCIOUS


    1) OFFERING DATA THAT DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR THEORY

    Job 14 is irrelevant to supporting your theory since it does not tell us the dead in sheol / hades / etc. were unconscious. It merely says man does not come back after leaving this life for sheol / hades.

    Job 7 is irrelevant and doesn’t support your theory since it does not tell us the dead in sheol / hades / etc. were unconscious. It merely says those who go to Sheol / Hades do not return.

    Ecclesiates 12 is irrelevant and doesn’t support your theory since it does not tell us the dead in sheol / hades / etc. were unconscious. It merely says the dust returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God. It does not tell us the spirit that returns to God is unconscious.



    2) REGARDING THE POTENTIAL RELEVANCE OF ECCLESIASTES 9 - A TEXT THAT MAY HAVE RELEVANCE TO YOUR THEORY

    Ecclesiates 9 has a potential for supporting your historical theory regarding the belief of ancient Jews IF the ancient Jews interpreted that specific text in the same way YOU interpret their text.

    YOUR interpretation is that it means the dead are “unconscious and non-communicative” but that is not the ancient JEWISH interpretation of the text.

    The early Jewish literature specifically discusses THEIR interpretation of this verse and it does NOT support your interpretation. Can you provide us Jewish literature that shows how they interpreted this specific text and we can discuss that literature?

    What does the Jewish literature tell us specifically about the ancient Jewish interpretation of your quote from Ecclesiates 9?




    3) REGARDING YOUR COMPLAINT THAT THE TALMUD IS "NOT ANCIENT"

    Regarding your observation that the Talmud does not qualify as “ancient” because it was committed to writing only between 1500 – 1800 years ago.

    IF you are quoting from the Jewish Masoretic, then you are quoting from a text committed to writing only in the medieval time period, almost a century LATER than the Talmud was committed to writing. Thus, the Talmud is much older than your quote, (unless you want to quote from the LXX or Dead Sea texts.)

    Also, remember, the Talmud portion of the ORAL law was committed to WRITING in 200-500 a.d. but the Oral law itself traditionally originated with Moses and the WRITTEN law. Thus the traditions in the Talmud are much older than the date the oral history was committed to writing.

    Also, remember, the Mishna represents JEWISH thinking and interpretations concerning texts such as Ecclesiates 9, rather than representing YOUR thinking and interpretation concerning ancient texts. I think the early Jews are more representative of Jewish thinking and Jewish interpretation than your modern opinions as to what ancient Jews thought and how they interpreted specific texts.


    At any rate, do you have any references from ancient Jewish literature, perhaps a mishnic quote or something similar that describes the specific Jewish interpretation and thinking that might support your interpretation of Ecclesiates 9?

    Miken. I think some of your thoughts are insightful. I would like to see the actual historical data that might support your theory.

    Clear
    ακφυδρω
     
    #57 Clear, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  18. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Job 14 is irrelevant to supporting your theory since it does not tell us the dead in sheol / hades / etc. were unconscious. It merely says man does not come back after leaving this life for sheol / hades.

    It supports my contention that early Jewish belief did not include the idea of personal resurrection. Which makes it totally relevant to my argument.

    Job 7 is irrelevant and doesn’t support your theory since it does not tell us the dead in sheol / hades / etc. were unconscious. It merely says those who go to Sheol / Hades do not return.

    It supports my contention that early Jewish belief did not include the idea of personal resurrection. Which makes it totally relevant to my argument.

    Ecclesiates 12 is irrelevant and doesn’t support your theory since it does not tell us the dead in sheol / hades / etc. were unconscious. It merely says the dust returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God. It does not tell us the spirit that returns to God is unconscious.

    Ecclesiates 12 says that the spirit returns to God not to Sheol. In conjunctions with Ecclesiastes 9 “the dead know nothing” it is clear that the dead are not conscious and do not communicate wherever they are.

    Ecclesiates 9 has a potential for supporting your historical theory regarding the belief of ancient Jews.

    However, you offered us YOUR interpretation that it means the dead are “unconscious and non-communicative” and not the ancient JEWISH interpretation of the text.

    The early Jewish literature specifically discusses THEIR interpretation of this verse and it does NOT support your interpretation. Can you provide us Jewish literature that shows how they interpreted this specific text and we can discuss that literature?

    What does the Jewish literature tell us specifically about the ancient Jewish interpretation of your quote from Ecclesiates 9?


    Here is what Rashi has to say about “dead know nothing”

    “For the living know that they will die: and perhaps their hearts will return on the day of death and they will repent of their ways, but after they die, they do not know anything, and they have no more reward for the actions that they do from their deaths and onwards, for whoever toils on the eve of the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath.”
    Kohelet - Ecclesiastes - Chapter 9

    According to Rashi, the dead in Sheol are not conscious and obviously do not communicate.

    Regarding your observation that the Talmud does not qualify as “ancient” because it was committed to writing only between 1500 – 1800 years ago.

    IF you are quoting from the Jewish Masoretic, then you are quoting from a text committed to writing only in the medieval time period, almost a century LATER than the Talmud was committed to writing. Thus, the Talmud is much older than your quote, (unless you want to quote from the LXX or Dead Sea texts.)


    My quotes do correspond well with the LXX. Here is the first part of Ecclesiastes 9:5

    ὅτι οἱ ζῶντες γνώσονται ὅτι ἀποθανοῦνται καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ οὔκ εἰσιν γινώσκοντες οὐδέν

    Because the while-living they-will-be-knowed, Because they-will-be-died and the dead not is-being they-are while-knowing none.

    Also, remember, the Talmud portion of the ORAL law was committed to WRITING in 200-500 a.d. but the Oral law itself traditionally originated with Moses and the WRITTEN law. Thus the traditions in the Talmud are much older than the date the oral history was committed to writing.

    Also, remember, the Mishna represents JEWISH thinking and interpretations concerning texts such as Ecclesiates 9, rather than representing YOUR thinking and interpretation concerning ancient texts. I think the early Jews are more representative of Jewish thinking and Jewish interpretation than your modern opinions as to what ancient Jews thought and how they interpreted specific texts.


    The Mishnah is the written record of the Oral Torah, detailing the proper performance of mitzvot and related practices. Interpretation of the theological implications of scriptures is in the Gemara, written after 200 AD, although the Gemara is also very concerned with practices.

    Concerning later interpretations, by the time the Gemara was written, commitment to the pharisaic idea of a resurrection was well entrenched. As of the 1st century AD, this was not yet universally accepted.

    At any rate, do you have any references from ancient Jewish literature, perhaps a mishnic quote or something similar that describes the specific Jewish interpretation and thinking about your quote from Ecclesiates 9?

    See the quote from Rashi above.

    Miken. I think some of your thoughts are insightful. I would like to see the actual historical data that might support your theory.

    I have presented the scriptural texts and provided some support for these being original. In one case I have provided a late (12th century) interpretation from a highly respected Jewish authority that agrees with me on the plain meaning of a passage. I have no idea what kind of ‘actual historical data’ you would want or what that even means in this context.
     
  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If God is the only one that can destroy the soul...
    Then the soul is immortal that can not be destroyed by any man...

    Man can destroy the body of a man..
    But man can not destroy the soul...
    Because the soul is immortal that can not be destroyed by man..
    Only God holds the power to destroy the soul.

    What is your having a problem with
    The ( N ) or ( O )
    No man can destroy the soul.
     
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  20. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    In order to understand the passage in question we must consider the resurrection of dead men. Like when Jesus was speaking about how Moses taught that the dead do in fact rise. God can be the God of the dead because the dead rise. In other words, God is not the God of the dead because the dead rise from the dead. God calls things that be not as though they were. Abraham is dead, but God doesn't see it that way because Abraham is most certainly going to live by being raised from the dead.
    .
    If you can't grasp the language you'll get nowhere.

    The same language is being used by Jesus when he says that man can not kill the soul, but God can. Even though man can take your life(soul), he can not destroy it completely based on the FACT that God raises the dead.

    The problem in discussing these things with those who see through immortal soul glasses is that they don't understand that dead means dead. In other words, men don't die, only their bodies do, they say.

    For example, when Paul says "it is Jesus Christ who died", people who see through immortal soul spectacles hear Paul saying "it is Jesus Christ's BODY ONLY that died.
    Therefore, they deny that Jesus Christ himself died. In fact, they deny that anyone has died.

    They cant hear Moses or the prophets and are like the Pharisees of the parable.

    God did NOT tell Adam "your body is dust and to dust your body will return" NO! . The exact words are "YOU(Adam) are dust and to dust YOU(Adam) shall return.

    If they can hear Moses, they would not be deceived by the doctrines of men.

    Jesus says that Moses taught the resurrection of the dead. And not that man has an immortal soul.

    When Jesus says "I lay down my life", immortal soul believers hear him say "I lay down the life of my body only".
    Therefore, they must qualify most of what they say by adding words to the words.

    To them, Jesus Christ did not lay down his life, but only the life of his body.
     
    #60 LightofTruth, Oct 30, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
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