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Featured Something I found on the internet about luke 16:19-31

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, Oct 27, 2020.

  1. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Yes, you can decide to make it what you want to make it and even pull some spiritual truths (even out of your own life).... but it still isn't a parable.
     
  2. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    What are the righteous rewarded with on the day of judgment?

    I understand that the unrighteous will be destroyed. But I don't understand how an immortal soul can be destroyed because that's self contradictory. You can't destroy something that by its very nature is not subject to death.

    And I don't know what "really unrighteous" means .

    Any righteousness a person has is not his own anyway. It's God's righteousness accounted to the person by faith.

    The three types are:

    1) Those who never come to faith.
    2) The faithful ones
    3) The fallen away from faith ones.

    Those who never come to faith, simply die the death of Adam and return to their native earth.

    The faithful ones are rewarded with eternal life.

    The fallen away ones die a second death.
     
  3. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If it's not a parable then the scripture is full of lies. I pointed out some of them in this thread.
     
  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Let's say it's not a parable. And man actually has an immortal soul/spirit that leaves the body and goes somewhere when the body dies.
    When Lazarus died he(his soul/spirit) was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom and the rich man was sent to a place of torment.

    The place where Lazarus went is much to be preferred than the place of torment. So how is that Lazarus' soul/spirit went to a preferred place?

    Let's say that Lazarus' soul/spirit went to the preferred place because he was a faithful believer. And the rich man's soul/spirit went where he was sent because he was not a faithful believer.

    How is it that if there is no resurrection of the dead a person's faith is worthless?

    If it's not a parable, then Paul's teaching is worthless.
     
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  5. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    The “drop of water is energy”?

    So, now, who’s making a parable? You’re doing the same thing.

    Regarding the spirit realm...we have evidence from the Bible, that spirits are not affected by fire...
    Who protected the 3 Hebrews from fire in Daniel 3? One of Jehovah’s angels!
    Not only was the angel not affected... he protected others from it!

     
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    You know upon reading Luke 16:26.
    There is no where saying it's a Parable.

    But yet People because what their Pastor teaches in the churches will say it's a Parable...when in fact if you ask them to show where it says it a Parable...they can't give you answer...
    All because there is no where in
    Luke 16:26 that says it's a Parable.

    So the question is?
    Seeing that Jesus Christ said nothing about it being a Parable in Luke 16:26....

    So where do people get it to be a Parable other than what their being taught in the churches by a pastor preacher that's just as much as a sinner as everyone else..
     
  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Did you know that Jesus Christ did say in
    Matthew 10:28--"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

    Therefore you do have immortal soul, spirit that only God can destroy..

    Have no fear of those who can only destroy the body..
    But to fear God who can destroy the soul, spirit in hell.
    Therefore you do have a immortal soul, spirit that only God can destroy..
     
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If I may say....ask those who say that
    Luke 16:26 is a Parable to give in what verses of Luke 16 where it says
    Luke 16 as being a Parable.

    If you read the whole chapter 16 of Luke there's not one word saying that Luke 16
    As being a Parable..

    So how is it that people come up with
    Luke chapter 16 as being a Parable when Jesus Christ himself said nothing in
    Luke 16 about it being a Parable..

    When in fact in the whole Chapter 16.
    You can not even find the word ( parable)
    In the whole chapter 16 of Luke.

    So how is it that people come with
    Luke 16 as being a Parable?
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Can you give in what Verse in Luke 16.
    Where Jesus Christ said anything about
    Luke 16 as being a Parable..

    The last I read Luke 16...Jesus Christ said nothing about Luke 16 being a Parable..
    So how is it that you come by Luke 16.
    As being a Parable....when in fact Jesus Christ himself said nothing about
    Luke 16 as being a Parable..
     
  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    If Lu 16:19 was literal, then a drop of water could travel from heaven all the way to a fiery hell, not evaporate and be sufficient to quell the thirst of a person agonizing in a blazing fire. It has to be a parable.

    Cheers.[/QUOTE]

    Does it matter if it is a parable or not? The people Jesus was speaking to knew what He was speaking about, a conscious existence after this life in hades where people are either comforted or suffer for what they have done in life, while awaiting the final judgement.
    Jesus spoke of this place of comfort when He told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with Jesus on that day.
    (and yes the comma goes before "today" because Jesus used the phrase "truly I tell you" many times in the gospels without adding "today" to the phrase.)
     
  11. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    Frank -

    You’ve been on the forum for less than 2 years and you’ve already posted one version or another of this more times than I have fingers plus probably, because I stopped counting, as many times as I have toes.
     
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  12. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If the soul can be destroyed then it's not immortal...by definition.

    People who know what the word means but still believe in an inherent immortal soul have to redefine the words "kill", "perish" ,"dead" and "destroy".

    They redefine them to mean merely "being separated from God".

    So, instead of simply coming to the truth, they redefine words to fit their own ideas.
     
  13. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Not sure about the progressive logic here. Who said there was no resurrection? Jesus hadn't died and resurrected yet... so how is that relevant?
     
  14. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Life. John says “‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’” (Jn 8:52)
    (Notice that this another example of people needing to do something.)
    Various similar mentions throughout the NT.

    Revelation describes paradise at length, with happiness paramount. “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Rev 21:4)

    There are suggestions here and there that the unrighteous will be destroyed at the judgment. There are also indications of eternal conscious punishment. As I have said elsewhere, there are differences of opinion within the NT concerning the nature of the afterlife.

    Revelation has everyone resurrected and judged. Those whose name is not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. This scenario raises some questions. In what form are the dead raised.

    Paul says that the righteous are raised with an immortal incorruptible body. Are the unrighteous raised that way also? If so, it does not seem that the lake of fire is going to destroy them, leading to eternal conscious painful punishment.

    The unrighteous would have to be raised in some kind of restored body. A pile of dust standing judgment is not a very reasonable image. If the unrighteous are raised with corruptible bodies, then the punishment would seem to be a very brief period of pain and annihilation. Hardly seems resurrecting them at all. And for someone who does not believe in an afterlife at all (certain Corinthians spring to mind) it does not seem like a deterrent against leading a life of selfish pleasure.

    We might at this point note that the Jewish concept of life is very much about the body and breath. An afterlife would involve some kind of body, a subject Paul addresses in detail in 1 Cor 15. Revelation has very Jewish sensibilities with innumerable references to Jewish writings, canonical and non-canonical. Life without a body would be a very difficult concept. A soul independent of a body does not work well. If bodies can be destroyed than so can souls because they are linked.

    In 1 Enoch, those unrighteous who are not destroyed are punished eternally. What exactly qualifies for that special treatment? All 1 Enoch says is:

    1 Enoch 22:14 A receptacle of this sort has been formed for the souls of unrighteous men, and of sinners; of those who have completed crime, and associated with the impious, whom they resemble. Their souls shall not be annihilated in the day of judgment, neither shall they arise from this place.

    Nonetheless there is righteousness and unrighteousness. Righteousness requires doing what God wants.

    Romans 2
    6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

    12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

    In this section, Paul uses the word ‘law’ rapid fire with multiple meanings. He is talking to Jewish Christians, explaining that being Jewish and following the precepts of Mosaic is not the path to righteousness. Judgment will be on what you do independent of the intricacies of Mosaic Law. Gentiles know what is right and wrong and will be judged on that basis. (This inherent sense of right and wrong is also alluded to in Romans 1.)

    In Romans 3, Paul amplifies this thought by referring to Abraham being considered righteous by faith before he was circumcised (became a Jew). Gentile Christians who do not obey the Mosaic Law are just as good as Jewish Christians in being righteous. (Later Paul will deal at length with the issue of Jewish Christian needing to abandon the written law.) Notice however that independent of faith, those who do what they know is right independently of Jewish law are righteous and justified. (Rom 2:13) No mention of faith there. It is about what you do.

    According to Romans 2 those who never come to faith but live according to what they believe is right, that their inherent conscience tells them, are righteous and justified.

    By that same token, the faithful ones – who believe in Jesus – but do not act accordingly will not get eternal life, not being righteous or justified. In numerous places in his letters, Paul makes it clear that those who act sinfully are not going to get eternal life.

    According to Revelation 20, those who die a second death are assigned that fate based on what they have done. “the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.” (Rev 20:12)
     
  15. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's relevant because the rich man is said to be in Hades and the idea of Hades is that it is the place where disembodied souls go to be tormented.

    In fact, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the favorite of those who desire to prove that man has an immortal soul that leaves the body when the body dies. And those souls either go where Lazarus went or to Hell where the rich man went.

    The parable is used to disprove the idea of "soul sleep". The idea that souls sleep in the dust of the earth until the resurrection of the dead.

    (1.) His state is very miserable. He is in hell, in hades, in the state of separate souls, and there he is in the utmost misery and anguish possible. As the souls of the faithful, immediately after they are delivered from the burden of the flesh, are in joy and felicity, so wicked and unsanctified souls, immediately after they are fetched from the pleasures of the flesh by death, are in misery and torment endless, useless, and remediless, and which will be much increased and completed at the resurrection. --Matthew Henry

    If both Lazarus and the rich man have souls that immediately leave their bodies when the body dies, then those souls must go somewhere.
    if it is supposed that Lazarus' soul went to paradise, as the thief on the cross was said to be in paradise "To-day", then faith is NOT worthless if there is no resurrection of the dead as Paul says.

    You get it?

    No resurrection, no hope. says Paul.

    But if it be true what Matthew Henry says, then there IS hope BEFORE the resurrection because there is a place called "paradise" where the disembodied souls of the faithful go immediately after the death of the body.
     
  16. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Hi Rabbio, we have met elsewhere.

    Frank posting this again gave me a chance to open my big, er, I mean offer my own opinion on the subject. So it was fine by me.

    BTW I like the reference to Ribaz in your sig.
     
  17. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If we believe what Paul says about the resurrection of the dead. Then we must view the rich man and Lazarus as a type of parable which teaches the same truth that Paul taught
    The "punch line" of the parable does in fact teach the same lesson as Paul taught..

    If there is no resurrection of the dead, then any faith a believer has is worthless.
     
  18. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    I think you guys are missing a major point.

    Now I've never heard of the doctrine of soul-sleep. But from Jesus's words in the parable, it isclear that our understanding og Heaven and Hell are deeply flawed. Why? Because Lazarus and the rich man are in the SAME room! He is able to call out to father Abraham, but their fate is different.

    This is Sheol, not the divided concept of Heaven/Hell that Christianity typically espouses.
     
  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The Spirit can only be destroyed by God.. otherwise the spirit is eternal..
    ..
     
  20. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @Miken

    Miken said : “Luke is very clearly referring to the images used in 1 Enoch, which does not have the righteous go to heaven at death but instead await the day of judgment in a place separated by a chasm from another place of punishment….

    The Pharisees who are eavesdropping will likely be familiar with 1 Enoch, being generally educated in the Jewish literature of the age. They would then realize the story is aimed at them. However, if they are not familiar with 1 Enoch or do not accept that view, then they will reject everything Jesus said, since it is founded on a false premise.” (Post #15)



    I agree that the writers of the New Testament were familiar with Enoch (since they quote from it and refer to it’s themes so many times). Outside of the Pentateuch and psalms, there were more copies of enoch discovered in the dead sea Jewish library than any other book.

    The modern theory (19th century) of “soul sleep” where the spirit in man is non-existent, non-cognisant, non-communicative doesn’t appear in the early Judeo-Christian literature and I am not sure I see any advantage to that theory with it’s interpretations over the earliest Jewish and Christian doctrines and interpretations where the spirits of those who have died are cognizant and communicative. I think the earliest Judeo-Christian version of “soul sleep” are much more logical and rational and historically coherent than the Modern Jehovahs Witness version.

    The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is certainly consistent with the stories of the dead and their cognizant and communicative condition as described in much of the earliest Judeo-Christian Literature.


    MULTIPLE (CONFUSING) TERMS FOR THE WORLD OF SPIRITS WERE USED

    Some confusion regarding this world of spirits is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.

    Because translators use so many different terms for the same place, Occassionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion. Perhaps I can apply this point to an example regarding the ancient usage of the word “paradise”

    For example the early Judeo-Christian textual description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” ( 2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget.

    This ancient usage of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (lk 23:43). It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. The greek term "παραδιζο" referred to the place of gardens just outside of the castle of the king.

    Of mortals it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip)



    ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT

    In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.

    The “complainerEzra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). But more on this later.

    In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)

    “ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .

    “For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15)

    None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).

    I think that the catholic version of this early doctrine took on a bit different character partly because in some contexts, this spirit world was a sort of bondage; a "prison" of sorts.


    THIS SPIRIT WORLD WAS DIVIDED INTO DIFFERENT CLASSES


    As you mentioned Miken, In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown that it has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel :
    .”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)

    Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.

    In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)

    In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but spirits are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law :

    “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate,to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)

    It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.

    Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to chose.



    THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF DECENSUS OF SPIRITS INTO HADES / SHEOL / WORLD OF SPIRITS / PARADISE / ETC.

    The doctrine of the descensus is foreign to many modern religious movements, but anciently, the Judeo-Christians spoke of the descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death The descent of Christ into this spirit world after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

    POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
     
    #40 Clear, Oct 28, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
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