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Featured Something I found on the internet about luke 16:19-31

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Frank Goad, Oct 27, 2020.

  1. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Luke 16:19 to 31 is another scripture that shows very plainly that the souls or spirits of people are alive after someone dies physically. They can talk, think, remember, and feel pain as it says, but if we take this scripture literally then it destroys the doctrine of 'soul-sleep'. For this reason there are many who would like to explain this scripture away as a parable, because then it enables them to ignore the literal interpretation. This is wrong, and if Jesus believed the doctrine of soul-sleep he would never have told a parable like this which contradicts it very plainly. This bible study gives plenty of scriptural proof that the scripture about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is not a parable.

    [paste:font size="5"]Luke 14:31-42), "the master of the house" (Matthew 24:42-44), "that evil servant" (Matthew 24:48-51), "a man taking a far journey" (Mark 13:34-37), "a judge" (Luke 18:2), "a widow" (Luke 18:3), "a certain man" (Luke 13:6), "a certain rich man" (Luke 12:16), and so on; but none named.

    (2) Every parable has an earthly setting, which the people hearing could relate to, but never a heavenly or spiritual one. In this scripture however, Hades1 (Gtr. hades) (v23), and 'Abraham's bosom' (v22), are not earthly settings, showing that this is not a parable.

    (3) Because the settings of parables are always earthly they never include spiritual beings either, although God may be mentioned. The interpretation of a parable may include spiritual beings though, because a parable is a simile, which has a spiritual comparison to it. For example 'the reapers' in the parable of the wheat and tares, are 'angels' in the explanation, and 'the enemy' in the parable is 'the Devil' in the comparison (Matthew 13:39). So if spiritual beings such as angels only appear in a comparison, but never in a parable, then this scripture about the rich man in hell cannot be a parable, because angels are also mentioned (v22). The conclusion to be drawn is that Jesus was relating a true story here, either one that happened in the past or it was prophetic; the rich man and Lazarus were people who had or would actually live and die.

    (4) If Jesus believed the doctrine of soul-sleep he would never have told a parable like this which plainly contradicts it. Doctrine should be based on plain statements of scripture, and parables are an earthly story similar to the spiritual truth, and are meant to illustrate it. They are laid alongside spiritual truths as a comparison. Parables should NEVER contradict spiritual truth, and Jesus would never tell one that did.

    There are some who would object to this on the basis of this verse, "All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables, and without a parable he did not speak to them." (Matthew 13:34). Now looking back in Luke 16 it says, "Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard these things, and they derided him. And he said to them ... " (Luke 16:14-15). So the argument is that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, and therefore he must have been speaking a parable. This is a failure to rightly divide the word of God on the subject, for if we look immediately before he spoke about the rich man and Lazarus, we see this:

    (Luke16:18) "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery."

    The parallel scriptures that go with this are Matthew 19:9 and Mark 10:11-12. We see that prior to these verses in Mark it says, "And in the house his disciples asked him again about the same matter." (Mark 10:10). So when he spoke the scripture in Luke 16:18 he was in the house talking to his disciples, not the Pharisees. After all, he was speaking plain language in Matthew 19:9, Mark 10:11-12, and Luke 16:18 so on the basis of their argument that he would only speak to the people in parables, he was not speaking to the Pharisees. Matthew confirms that after this statement about adultery (Matthew 19:9) he was speaking to his disciples; "His disciples said to him, ... But he said to them, ... ." (Matthew 19:10-11). So their argument to try and prove that this was a parable, on the basis that he was speaking to the Pharisees, is false.

    I found all this on this website: THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

    What do you think about all the information on this website?I think it makes it look like the lazarus and the rich man is NOT a parable.

    Sorry if I have posted this before.:(
     
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  2. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    A very sound interpretation!!! Congrats!! And I don't think you have posted this before.
     
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  3. Neuropteron

    Neuropteron Active Member

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    [QUOTE="

    (2)

    (Luke16:18):([/B][/QUOTE]

    Hi,

    If Lu 16:19 was literal, then a drop of water could travel from heaven all the way to a fiery hell, not evaporate and be sufficient to quell the thirst of a person agonizing in a blazing fire. It has to be a parable.

    Cheers.
     
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  4. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    If Lu 16:19 was literal, then a drop of water could travel from heaven all the way to a fiery hell, not evaporate and be sufficient to quell the thirst of a person agonizing in a blazing fire. It has to be a parable.

    Cheers.[/QUOTE]

    Remember that Jesus said flesh and blood can't go to heaven.So i think that means that heaven and hell are energy.So the water thing makes sense.
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    No... he couldn't cross the divide with water.

    And who said that he was flesh and blood? The spiritual realm is just as tangible as the physical realm.
     
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  6. Frank Goad

    Frank Goad Well-Known Member

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    Good point! :)
     
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  7. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Hyperbole for the sake of a dramatic image. In Matthew 23:24, do Pharisees really literally swallow camels?

    All the parables are about situations that could happen in the real world and would be familiar to the audience. Luke 16 is neither. Are his listeners supposed to think that what Jesus is telling them is in fact erroneous fiction? What would be the point of that?

    The notion of the dead being conscious and either at peace or being punished in places separated by a chasm is straight out of 1 Enoch 22, a popular work in that era. The image of reward or punishment immediately after death would be more familiar to Luke’s mainly Gentile audience who would have a background of Hellenistic culture.

    In any case, Luke 16 does not say that Lazarus is in heaven. He says that he is with Abraham. That would be in the place where the righteous await the end of days. It is the chasm that separates Lazarus and the rich man, not the distance to heaven.
     
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  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    First, I am not aware of any rule that says parables must be about real people in rea; situations. Second, Jesus said he used parables so some people would NOT understand. Maybe you are one of those. Third, the Bible says no one has ascended to heaven, So how can this be a true story about a person in heaven? When you put all the pieces together this is just a story to teach a lesson. You can't allways trust something you find on the internet.
     
  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Parables do not have to be based on fact. Judges 9 gives us an example.

    The "point of that" in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is EXPLAINED by Jesus when he says:

    "For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. " Luke 16:28-31

    They couldn't HEAR Moses or the prophets and that's why they fell for the false doctrine of immortal souls being sent to a place of eternal torment rather than the truth of the resurrection of the dead.

    A similar situation was when Jesus was telling his disciples they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood if they were to have life. Many didn't realize that the words he spoke were spiritual and that the flesh profits nothing. But there again, Jesus explains it: "the words I speak are spirit and truth".... "the flesh profits nothing"
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I don't find that he is explaining the parable but rather answering the rich man's question.

    45 time Jesus said "this parable" or explained "the parable"

    Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
    Matthew 13:53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.

    It never said that Lazarus and the rich man was a parable.
    He never used a proper name of a person for a parable.
    A parable is always expressed as a parable. This was not
     
  11. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's faulty reasoning to suggest that it can't be a parable because he uses a proper name.

    It IS expressed as a parable!

    "Now a certain man was rich, and dressed in purple cloth and fine linen, feasting sumptuously every day.
    And a certain poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, lay at his gate,

    That's the language of a parable!

    IF they could HEAR Moses they would know that Moses NEVER taught what they believed. Moses taught the resurrection of the dead and NOT any immortal souls going to eternal torment.

    Jesus is suggesting that the rich man's brothers ought to hear Moses and the prophets. And IF they do.....they would also hear Jesus when he said:

    Mar 12:26 Now concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses in the passage about the bush how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob'?
    Mar 12:27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are very much mistaken!"

    The dead are to be raised from the dead and that's why God is the God of Abraham (who is dead) and Isaac (who is dead) and Jacob(who is also dead).

    Jesus says they are not dead based on the principle that God calls things that be not as though they were. Like when God told Abraham he was the father of a multitude before he even had any children.

    The point being...>Moses taught the resurrection of the dead, just as Jesus said he did.
     
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  12. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I disagree completely :) for the reasons (not just the proper name which is NEVER used in any other parable). Lazarus - the poor man - was a person and not a parable. :)
     
  13. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Lazarus represents a CLASS called "the poor".
    The "rich man" represents a CLASS called the Pharisees.
     
    #13 LightofTruth, Oct 27, 2020
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  14. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is telling a parable based on fiction. He is using the false beliefs of the Pharisees to refute their beliefs. And he refutes their beliefs by speaking as Abraham who tells the rich man to HEAR Moses.

    But they can't hear Moses. And neither can many today hear him!

    Moses was very familiar with the false teaching (immortal souls) of the Egyptians. He grew up around them. Did Moses teach what they taught? No, he did not. Moses taught the resurrection of the dead, just as Jesus said he did.

    Paul explains that without a resurrection of the dead, then the faith of the believer is worthless.

    If Lazarus had died and went to a blissful rest while his body was still in the grave, then his faith would not be worthless as Paul says.
     
  15. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    If a parable is not comprehensible to the audience, it serves no purpose. Are you saying that Jesus used parables to deliberately confuse people, to prevent them from understanding? Why would he do that? What Matthew 13 really says is that the disciples know more than the crowds and the crowds would not understand the straight deal, not to prevent them from understanding. If the parables were meant to prevent understanding, then we should not read them, right?

    Luke is very clearly referring to the images used in 1 Enoch, which does not have the righteous go to heaven at death but instead await the day of judgment in a place separated by a chasm from another place of punishment.

    A story to teach a lesson that contains false theological notions? The disciples will either believe that Jesus is telling the truth and accept the idea of judgment immediately after death, or they will think that Jesus is telling them a whopper and not take any of it seriously.

    The Pharisees who are eavesdropping will likely be familiar with 1 Enoch, being generally educated in the Jewish literature of the age. They would then realize the story is aimed at them. However, if they are not familiar with 1 Enoch or do not accept that view, then they will reject everything Jesus said, since it is founded on a false premise.

    The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man told by Luke cannot be dismissed as just a story to teach a lesson. Jesus definitely would have expected his listeners to accept this theological worldview or the story would never be taken to heart. Too much cognitive dissonance.

    The several works in the NT do not always tell the same details about how things are. That should not distract from the bottom line message of how people should act.
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Then it would have said "a certain rich man and a certain poor man"...but it said Lazarus! :)
     
  17. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Again, that's faulty reasoning! It supposes that Jesus could not use a proper name in a parable.

    But don't the believers in an inherent immortal soul use Lazarus as a representative of faithful believers? Sure they do!
    Therefore, Lazarus represents a certain class of people. just as the rich man represents another class.
     
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  18. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's very easy to understand why Jesus confused people. He did it to separate the weeds from the wheat.

    I think you're missing the FACT that believers will NOT come into judgement.

    If a person believes the gospel, is baptized into Christ, and remains faithful to the end, he will NOT face judgment.

    Therefore, the idea of two places where both groups await judgment is FALSE!

    Joh 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

    Joh 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

    Joh 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

    The RCC holds the false doctrine of immortal souls and that's why they invented a place they call purgatory. Which is totally refuted by Scripture as shown.
     
  19. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Joh 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

    A person who "has eternal life" is a person who already possess it. A person can not be in possession of eternal life if he is to be judged at a later date on whether or not he is to receive eternal life.
    A believer is to be confident that he already possess it, as Jesus said he does.

    And Paul is in complete agreement with Jesus when he says the dead (faithful ones) will be raised incorruptible. meaning that when they awake from the sleep of death, they will have a spiritual body like Jesus which can never die. They are raised immortal. And a person who is raised immortal is not subject to death.

    Dan 12:2 And many from those sleeping in the dusty ground will awake, some to everlasting life and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    There is NO purgatory!

    Both the faith and the fallen away ones sleep in the dust. the faithful ones rise to everlasting life, and the fallen away ones rise to shame and contempt and will face a second death.
     
  20. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Let’s put your one-liners in context.

    John 3
    18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

    You have to do what is true and perform works that are carried out in God.

    John 3
    36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    You have to obey.

    John 5
    24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

    Compare this to Matthew 19

    Matthew 19
    16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Jesus refers to God-given commandments, the ones relating to action. This is the word Jesus gave, and it is the God-given commandments Jesus wants you to believe in and do. Notice that Jesus does not say a single word about faith in him being part of it. Instead he minimizes his role and points to what God said to do. Recall that in Jn 5:36 it says you have to obey.

    Further on in John 5
    25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


    ]It’s what you do that counts.

    John 6
    40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    We just saw that everyone will be raised and judged on what they have done.

    And then there is this.

    John 14
    15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

    21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

    What commandments did Jesus tell us about? Oh yes, Matthew 19 above.


    I fail to see what the idea of Purgatory has anything to do with the above. It is one way or the other. 1 Enoch 22 does not describe Purgatory. There are the righteous who will be rewarded on the day of Judgment, there are the unrighteous who will be destroyed on the Day of Judgment and there are the really unrighteous who will stay in the place of punishment forever. No getting out after serving your sentence.
     
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