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Featured Something from Nothing

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, May 16, 2018.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    so can consciousness be the cause and effect and itself?
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    So how would you question me about something coming from nothing when I said nothing does?

    Awareness is gone with the brain dies. Its dependent if not Is the brain process that percieves info and interpets it into language. When the brain dies, consciousness dies.

    What is consciousness apart from the brain?

    Basically. Thats what you said below. Consciousness cant be created. But what is consciousness without the brain?

    The brain is the same as a computer. At its core, there is such thing as language, just nerves and impulses and sounds we put together, a code, in which we develop language. It doesnt pop from thin air.

    Something (codes and language) doesnt pop from nothing.

    No. Your consciousness form as you grow older and access the word and people youre around. The awareness goes when the brain dies.
    No. It cannot be created. (Yes, I agree). Awareness goes with the brain dies.

    I had to backtrack cause I lost my points.
     
    #22 Unveiled Artist, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    information. information doesn't cease to exist. it simply transmutates somewhere else. it moves from a system/form to some other form/system
     
  4. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    It could be the uncaused cause and effect of itself, coming from some place eternal and uncaused. Its just that without cause and effect, there is no explanation.
     
  5. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    God is consciousness. The rest is microscopic analysis.
     
  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    we know it can effect the body through psychological stress.

    interestingly enough in-formation means to give form to, or shape
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    How so? Awareness goes with the brain does.

    There is no more information it picks up when the brain dies. It stops "transmitting." The info retrieved when living no longer has function. Information only exists when the brain is aware of it. Its not tangible.

    Quick research

    Information processing starts with input from the sensory organs, which transform physical stimuli such as touch, heat, sound waves, or photons of light into electrochemical signals. ... In order for the brain to processinformation, it must first be stored.
    When the sensory organs and nerves etc die, so does our receving info and transmission of it; it has no use. If anything, instead of info disapearing, it only "exists" via transmission of one nerve impulse to another.

    The human brain consists of special cells called neurons, which are composed of several parts, including brain fibers known as dendrites. As you learn, these brain fibers grow. ... In other words, to learn new knowledge, a person must build on information that is already stored in the brain.​

    When the brain dies, there is no where the information stored can be used. Its not an entity in and of itself.

    If anything, obtain "info" independent of the brain is an illusion. Many people like that idea because they feel it lets them live for eternity. Its psychological and dies when the brain does.

    Unless you can explain how info continues apart from the brain? What definition are you speaking of apart from the brain?




     
  8. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Well personally i think something enlivens the brain. Brain in and of itself is just meat.

    Information still is a human defined term. Why would physical reality necessitate information to be real? Is information physical? Or is it that information takes on a form of meaning that otherwise physically aint there?
     
  9. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Well, this OP shows some evidence that the other way round is more likely.

    Joking of course.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #29 viole, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Something from Nothing

    Both "something" and "nothing" are created by G-d, please.
    Regards
     
  11. dust1n

    dust1n Zindīq

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    Don't really see how that is possible, considering the need for physical objects in order for "data" to exist, let alone be altered, manipulated, stored, etc.
     
  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    a brain isn't necessary for consciousness. brainless organism still have awareness. its been shown in lower life forms. all that is necessary is electrical impulses; which is a state of matter. brain matter is not necessary for intelligence

    New research on plant intelligence may forever change how you think about plants

    How brainless slime molds redefine intelligence

    Microbial intelligence - Wikipedia
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    What awareness are you speaking of?

    We, animals, and plants have "sensory" organs that pick up "information" (raw form) and translate it for survival both psychologically and physically (etc). In that way, we are aware; but that isnt a good term for it. Consciousness refers to thought process not reactivity from external environment.

    Unless plants and animals can think and form thoughts just like humans, the consciousness I speak of is awareness of our thoughts and how we as humans can make sense of the stimuli with which our body and minds come in contact with.

    As for intelligence, are you speaking of informational?

    Like "patterns of the universe" intelligence applies to our bodies plant/animal) is a bad word. Awarenes is better but then both make it seem animals and plants can think.

    Just as plants and animals, our awareness, however defined, dies with our brain and body. No living being is exempt from this....well, maybe this: The animals and plants that can live forever which is pretty interesting.

    I'll read your links. Awareness is for thought process not body and brain stimili and reaction that all living has. Inteligence is just out ability to learn and apply skills. All living has that.

    Intelligence isnt consciousness
     
  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    i'm speaking of awareness of any form; whether internal or external.

    oblivion of a realized form is not oblivion of the energy potential.

    all that is necessary for consciousness to exist is movement in some matter.




    Frances Ashcroft: We are controlled by electrical impulses


    these ion channels mentioned in the article are also known as nadis. what is old is new again

    Nadi (yoga) - Wikipedia
     
    #34 Fool, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    @Fool quick note..

    Intelligence has been defined in many different ways to include the capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, and problem solving. It can be more generally described as the ability to perceive or infer information, and to retain it as knowledge to be applied towards adaptive behaviors within an environment or context.

    --

    I think the word intelligence isnt a good word to discribe the "smarts" of plants. Its literally using our terms we apply for ourselves to other living things in order to make sense of it. For example, we can say that ape is "smart". To nature, its just doing what it does survival, just as we are. Intelligence is in the eye of the beholder. Some say its pattern others say god.

    But at its core, there is no intigence neither for humans nor for other living things. The laws of nature is not defined by int' if that be the case, we'd have no seizures and no formation of cancer. It would all be insync. Life doesnt work that way.

    Its only our way to have control and say we have knowledge of something we do not know. Its an illusion.

    When a plant and animal dies, the awareness and the int' dies with it. It only exists as a non tangible information and sensory reactiom to stimuli that has no function and retrieves no information/int' or awareness after the brain dies.

    If int' continues, unless through rebirth, in what form does it stay in continue to function apart from animal, plant, and human?
     
  16. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    mind, consciousness, doesn't have an exact form, obviously the nature of consciousness is to express itself in an infinite number of mediums, forms.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    They have analagous structures," Pollan explains. "They have ways of taking all the sensory data they gather in their everyday lives ... integrate it and then behave in an appropriate way in response. And they do this without brains, which, in a way, is what's incredible about it, because we automatically assume you need a brain to process information."

    Intelligence as in thoughts and interpretation of thoughts applied to a given thing. Not retrieval of information from sensory organs.

    That, and sensory organs contintue to transmit after the brain dies (raw form not awareness) but once the brain dies, there is no more awareness. The two words apply to different things.

    Inteligence (per your artical) applied reaction/info applied to say survival which all living have.

    Compared to consciouness

    Where the awareness of living beings die with the brain even though sensory retrival (intelligence) continues some mins to hours before full death and decay
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    Intelligence dies with the body. Awareness/consciousness dies with the brain.

    Some add spirit to, as to continue what they know the mind and body will not after death. Intelligence (going by your articles) can live mins to hours after death. Some animals still move with their heads chopped. I read our brain (not mind) still retrieves stimuli (pertrays intelligence) an hour after our death. But awareness is not there.

    How does awareness, not intelligence, continue after the brain dies?
     
  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    ??? Think about that
     
  20. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    All living animals are conscious to some degree. It can be argued that plants too have consciousness.

    I'm taking consciousness as being conscious of environment, awareness.

    As to whether it comes from nothing, you need to define nothing. Is that nothing with dimensions or absolute nothing?
     
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