Something for Satanists to think about

[Abraxas365]

First of all let me say that I am not a Satanist. I am actually a Gnostic/Hermeticist so I am VERY well versed with the occult. There is however something that I would like Satanists to think about. The following is something that I posted under the Gnosticism DIR:

I am sure that most people are well aware of the legends surrounding the Knights Templars. One thing that I wanted to say was that when you hear historians talking about the Templars being persecuted because of blasphemy, they will often say "it was falsely accused". In fact now a days the issue is entirely ignored because the Catholic Church has apologized for their persecutions of 700 years ago (that doesn't say anything about what the templars were ACTUALLY DOING LOL). In all actuality though it is fairly obvious who the identity of the skull and crossbones were. It was Simon Magus. Historians often deny this secret part of history altogether but when you dig into it you see that they only seem to want to keep their orthodox history in tact. Now the other claim is that Baphomet was some sort of demon....wrong! Baphomet is pretty much equivalent to the Gnostic Sophia (Wisdom). Baphomet (Simon Magus) was seen as the father of all wisdom by the Templars who were in fact secret Gnostics (another thing denied by historians). It is incredible how history has completely kept in tact so much of what we see right in front us and yet it is interpreted completely wrong. I can write quite a bit about this topic but this is something that I had to get out there.

I see Satanists all the time thinking that this or that symbol is Satanic. Truth be told however a lot of the symbols that Satanists believe to be Satanic are in truth Hermetic/Gnostic and were perverted by the Catholic Church deliberately. In fact I might go as far as to say that ALL so called Satanic symbols are actually Gnostic. Satanists often times don't understand the meaning of their symbols. Not to worry though Christians don't understand it either. It just annoys me that these symbols are not properly understood by either group. Baphomet is merely one example of what I am talking about.

 

[Mindmaster]

Baphomet is only used by symbolic or atheistic Satanists. It is meaningless to "the real" ones. I have one around because it looked cool or something, but my first exposure to Baphomet was in the writings of Eliphas Levi and not in the context which LaVey used it. So I understand the true meaning of the symbol and mostly associate it with that...

Though I would venture to say the historical use of all symbols is irrelevant. The practical and only the current use of them is applicable to anything. How many Gnostics are there? This is similar to how we've appropriated the Latin alphabet and now it is used to write English, Spanish, and French or whatever but no one really does anything with Latin. We can keep wheeling the corpse out on the gurney and showing it to everyone, but there isn't much point.

 

[Abraxas365]

I understood your point. I was just trying to say that it would actually be very nice for people to truly understand what the heck they are talking about lol. Satanists think they are "******" (which I am not putting them down for it) for using "baphomet" as some sort of artwork/symbol/religious association but when confronted about what it means he/she is lost. Same thing goes for Christians. I think your analogy to language is a little bit off though because in almost all cases it is okay to not understand the former language from which it derived. In my example though Baphomet is a very spiritual figure, namely Simon Magus. Yet he is seen as some sort of evil figure to the masses.

 

[SomeRandom]

I understood your point. I was just trying to say that it would actually be very nice for people to truly understand what the heck they are talking about lol. Satanists think they are "******" (which I am not putting them down for it) for using "baphomet" as some sort of artwork/symbol/religious association but when confronted about what it means he/she is lost. Same thing goes for Christians. I think your analogy to language is a little bit off though because in almost all cases it is okay to not understand the former language from which it derived. In my example though Baphomet is a very spiritual figure, namely Simon Magus. Yet he is seen as some sort of evil figure to the masses.

I understand what you are saying. People tend to do that same with Swastikas. But I agree with Mindmaster, what matters is how someone views a symbol, not necessarily the history. Symbols will mean different things to different people.

BTW I hope it's okay for me to post in the DIR

 

[Mindmaster]

I understood your point. I was just trying to say that it would actually be very nice for people to truly understand what the heck they are talking about lol. Satanists think they are "******" (which I am not putting them down for it) for using "baphomet" as some sort of artwork/symbol/religious association but when confronted about what it means he/she is lost. Same thing goes for Christians. I think your analogy to language is a little bit off though because in almost all cases it is okay to not understand the former language from which it derived. In my example though Baphomet is a very spiritual figure, namely Simon Magus. Yet he is seen as some sort of evil figure to the masses.

There is nothing evil to me at all about the classical Baphomet figure being that it is just a sort of symbolic union of opposites. Baphomet is a symbol of sex (the process), magic (working the macrocosm through a microcosmic perspective), and the ongoing elimination of false duality... It is however the process not the end result.

Anyway, it's likely LaVey picked to use it because of Waite's Tarot deck (common issue at the time, and the The Devil trump is basically mirroring Baphomet ideas) or because he happened to see this:

Here: La Clef De La Magie Noire

The Church of Satan Pentagram is basically exactly this minus the Samael/Lilith names, and the Hebrew "Leviathan" filled in solid.

Anyway, as far as the normal left-hand path understanding of the symbol I think Baphomet is truly representative of what the LHP is... Evil only in the small minds of Christians who fail to understand such things...

 

[Abraxas365]

I understand what you are saying. People tend to do that same with Swastikas. But I agree with Mindmaster, what matters is how someone views a symbol, not necessarily the history. Symbols will mean different things to different people.

BTW I hope it's okay for me to post in the DIR

Actually since I am new here I saw another thread where someone said they didn't want to make a long reply because it was a DIR. What exactly is a DIR? Is there somewhere else people post to get more replies or more discussions? I am a total noob on here.

 

[Mindmaster]

Actually since I am new here I saw another thread where someone said they didn't want to make a long reply because it was a DIR. What exactly is a DIR? Is there somewhere else people post to get more replies or more discussions? I am a total noob on here.

DIR is limited to questions from non-practitioners or followers of a path - they are not allowed to post otherwise generally. Respectful commentary is generally tolerated as well provided it is relation to said question however in this case I think you are on topic because you asking about the satanic use of the symbolism and contrasting it to the Gnostic understanding.. You're basically on topic for either group, but the other DIR wouldn't be able to answer your question.

I would be allowed to answer your question here, but not if you posted in LaVey Satanism for example as I am not one of those. I could also answer if you posted in LHP..

 

[Abraxas365]

DIR is limited to questions from non-practitioners or followers of a path - they are not allowed to post otherwise generally. Respectful commentary is generally tolerated as well provided it is relation to said question however in this case I think you are on topic because you asking about the satanic use of the symbolism and contrasting it to the Gnostic understanding.. You're basically on topic for either group, but the other DIR wouldn't be able to answer your question.

I would be allowed to answer your question here, but not if you posted in LaVey Satanism for example as I am not one of those -- but I can answer in the general Satanism DIR.

Ok makes sense.

 

[Liu]

It's not true that only atheistic satanists would use Baphomet as a symbol. I agree with Mindmaster on hir being a great representation of some of the main principles of the LHP, as shi represents the balancing between opposites, the overcoming of dualities and the striving for knowledge and wisdom. Well, that means I treat hir only as a symbol. But just because I'm a (pan)theist that doesn't mean I wouldn't use symbols as well.

Regarding Baphomet being Sophia - well, there is a minority of Gnostic Satanists, and for them it would make a lot of sense to use the name of Baphomet. I don't think I have seen them explicitly make the equation, though, however, some do equate Lucifer and Sophia, which could be compared to the views of the Ophitic Gnostics.
The Gnostic Satanists often have some adversity towards the CoS, it seems to me, so maybe they avoid using Baphomet to differentiate themselves from the CoS.

It would actually surprise me if there are not some polytheistic satanists or demonolators who include hir in their pantheon as an actual deity or spirit representing those notions, and I certainly have seen the symbol of Baphomet on such people's websites as well.

Nevertheless I agree that in many cases there might be a bit of laziness and ignorance on the side of the people using the symbol or name of Baphomet (no matter whether theistic, atheistic or whatever), actually only using it for its 'badassness', without knowing or thinking about the symbolics behind.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

First of all let me say that I am not a Satanist. I am actually a Gnostic/Hermeticist so I am VERY well versed with the occult. There is however something that I would like Satanists to think about. The following is something that I posted under the Gnosticism DIR:

I am sure that most people are well aware of the legends surrounding the Knights Templars. One thing that I wanted to say was that when you hear historians talking about the Templars being persecuted because of blasphemy, they will often say "it was falsely accused". In fact now a days the issue is entirely ignored because the Catholic Church has apologized for their persecutions of 700 years ago (that doesn't say anything about what the templars were ACTUALLY DOING LOL). In all actuality though it is fairly obvious who the identity of the skull and crossbones were. It was Simon Magus. Historians often deny this secret part of history altogether but when you dig into it you see that they only seem to want to keep their orthodox history in tact. Now the other claim is that Baphomet was some sort of demon....wrong! Baphomet is pretty much equivalent to the Gnostic Sophia (Wisdom). Baphomet (Simon Magus) was seen as the father of all wisdom by the Templars who were in fact secret Gnostics (another thing denied by historians). It is incredible how history has completely kept in tact so much of what we see right in front us and yet it is interpreted completely wrong. I can write quite a bit about this topic but this is something that I had to get out there.

I see Satanists all the time thinking that this or that symbol is Satanic. Truth be told however a lot of the symbols that Satanists believe to be Satanic are in truth Hermetic/Gnostic and were perverted by the Catholic Church deliberately. In fact I might go as far as to say that ALL so called Satanic symbols are actually Gnostic. Satanists often times don't understand the meaning of their symbols. Not to worry though Christians don't understand it either. It just annoys me that these symbols are not properly understood by either group. Baphomet is merely one example of what I am talking about.

Or perhaps it is you that does not understand how symbolism 'works' within the context of Satanism. The archaic meaning or history of any given symbol is irrelevant, all that matters is the applied affect a symbol might have on an individual practitioners psyche.

Unlike other occultists, Satanists tend not to believe symbols have any power until you personally empower them.

 

[Adramelek]

Or perhaps it is you that does not understand how symbolism 'works' within the context of Satanism. The archaic meaning or history of any given symbol is irrelevant, all that matters is the applied affect a symbol might have on an individual practitioners psyche.

Unlike other occultists, Satanists tend not to believe symbols have any power until you personally empower them.

Well stated SSE, a basic principle of Black Magick.

 

[Abraxas365]

Well stated SSE, a basic principle of Black Magick.

Another similar example is when you encounter Christians who legitimately don't understand that Yeshua Ben Yosef was not born on Dec. 25th. Most people nowadays are aware that Dec. 25th is the birthday of the solar deities, Sol Invictus, Mithra, Horus etc. I have even seen a Christian argue that pagans copied the Dec. 25th haha. It is just nice to have people be informed about what they practice.

The point is that Baphomet was not even what Eliphas Levi shows him as today. Originally it was the symbol of the Skull and Crossbones of the Templars which of course represented Simon Magus.

Having said all that an unfortunate fact of life is that not everyone can understand the origins of everything that ever existed. It is pretty unrealistic so in that case I would agree with your point to a certain extent.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

While your general point that people tend to have only a peripheral grasp of their own beliefs is valid, and further that this does tend to apply to many self described 'Satanists' as much as it does anyone else is also valid, your reasoning here vis a vis symbology is not.

 

[Abraxas365]

While your general point that people tend to have only a peripheral grasp of their own beliefs is valid, and further that this does tend to apply to many self described 'Satanists' as much as it does anyone else is also valid, your reasoning here vis a vis symbology is not.

Fair enough

 

[1137]

Symbols are subjective.

Ta ta.

 

[ScottySatan]

Everyone's got their pet subject that they think other people should know about. You think we should know about it because it's important to you. It's up to a Satanist to decide where they put their own priorities. Unless modified by the Satanist's own will, there's no greater reason to know this than anything else.

In my example though Baphomet is a very spiritual figure, namely Simon Magus. Yet he is seen as some sort of evil figure to the masses.

This is a big reason why we use it as a symbol, because of the power it has over other people. You think Satan himself is any different? LaVey has said that he picked Satan because of the time and place he was in. If he were in another environment, he would have picked someone else. I agree that would have been appropriate.

 

[Liu]

In my example though Baphomet is a very spiritual figure, namely Simon Magus. Yet he is seen as some sort of evil figure to the masses.

Why "yet"? I don't know much about Simon Magus, I mostly know him from medieval literature, e.g. the Kaiserchronik, and there he also is an evil figure. So it is not so far-fetched to consider Baphomet one then as well, if shi is derived from him. I suppose most people are more familiar with that interpretation of Simon Magus than the gnostic one - if they have ever heard of him at all.

I agree with the DIRs common ground that symbols will have a different meaning to everyone subjectively. Nevertheless I can't help but feel like it's not wrong to criticize it when someone uses Baphomet as, for example, website header, just because it looks cool to them, hardly knowing about any interpretation of it and not bothering to find out anything more, and not even with the agenda of intentionally not giving a darn, but simply out of pure laziness of mind. That's what I meant in the last paragraph of my former comment; in the rest I was not referring to the images but to the concepts of Baphomet.
I'd understand if someone says even such thoughtlessness is a valid use, though, since probably my criticism of such use is born less out of rationality and more out of personal values.

 

[Whiterain]

Had I read this beforehand, things would have made a lot more sense. Magic!

Can I explain anything, not yet. But the Templars were executed by order of the church, that's certain. I have heard about Baphomet before. Interestings.

Apparently in this conspiracy theory the Masons are about corrupt. They look to or always did look to Baphomet for guidance.

There was the Order raised by the Church, as well. No documentation on that what so ever, but I know it is true. Virgin Knights sent to war straight from church and later executed by burning at the stake.

 

[Mindmaster]

Gnostics, Templars, Masons, conspiracy theories, etc... All off-topic. Please limit the discussion to Satanism or post those things in appropriate DIRS. =)