Something (else) I don't get about Christianity

[Mister_T]

Take a deep breath and relax, Mr. T.

If I were any more relaxed, I wouldn't be breathing.

I'm sorry I "conveniently overlooked" your car analogy. Don't read too much into such an oversight---it was not intentional

No apology necessary. I just thought since we were in the mood of pointing out oversights, that I would participate in the fun.

However, I don't think the worst part of hell is the burning part (if that part is even literal)----I believe the worst part of hell, or really the true definition of hell, is complete and total separation from God for eternity (which I thought I mentioned before). And I think as humans we can't perhaps comprehend here in this life on earth, where we are still under God's grace and protection to some extent, what true separation from God feels like.

Even if Hell is not a literal, burning pit, it is equally as agonizing. The agony of being seperated from God is the greatest pain a soul can feel. So instead of a man locking his wife in a car and setting it on fire, we have a mother who locks her child in the car and abandons him.

There are things children need to be taught to have a healthy fear of, for their own protection.

I agree that we need discipline. What I don't agree with is that discipline includes joining a church and a belief by confession.

Likewise, God, as a loving heavenly Father, who desires none to perish and endure the agony of eternal separation from Him, tells us of this place called hell to instill a healthy fear into us.

Love=Fear? So you put a gun to someones head and tell them "Love me the way I say or I'll shoot you?" What's the difference between what you're saying and a shotgun-wedding?

But is that why I love God now? Because He's going to send me to hell if I don't?

No. But that's what got you to love him in the first place as you've said yourself. Without the threat of Hell you would have never loved God. Am I understanding you correctly? If that's so, what the difference between that and the wife who stays with her husband because if she leaves, he'll beat the tar out of her?

I can't help but love Him.

The beaten wife thinks her husband's a really great guy too.

I'm not trying to "sell" anyone, anything.

But if they don't share your beliefs, then they are hellbound. And you're trying to convince people of that. You're trying to sell that idea. That what evangelism is.

I'm simply trying to remain true to my faith. I feel I would be "selling out" if I did otherwise.

And I applaud you even though we don't see eye to eye. There's not a more admirable quality about a person, than being honest with oneself.

(Oh, and the Pharisees weren't the only ones who didn't like Jesus. There was a large crowd, comprised of Pharisees and others, who cried out for Jesus to be crucified [Luke 23]. The Roman soldiers mocked Him. Jesus was someone you either loved or hated, and those who hated Him comprised a larger selection of people than just the religious elite.)

So since I'm what you'd call an agonostic theist and not a born-again Christian, would I be one of those Romans who would be nailing Jesus to the cross and cheering? Even though I am a huge fan of his?

 

[Muffled]

Firstly, I don't even believe in heaven and hell. So the three people would go neither place.
Secondly I agree with If the first two people truly believed in Jesus they wouldn't have done the things that they did. Believing in Jesus is much more than simply stating it. You have to prove it by the way you live. If you follow God's commandments then you show that you love him by the things that you do.
I also have a question for 'TurkeyOnRye' - why do you believe that people 'blindly follow his insane directions'?

I think you will find yourself disillusioned if you think God works on the basis of your belief. He has the power to send people wherever He wishes. Hell or Hades is the center of the earth where there is only fire. Heaven exists outside of the time cycles.

The Apostle Paul disagrees. He knows that he is capable of sin even though he wishes it to be otherwise. Jesus saves from sin so it is less likely for a Christian to sin but Christians are not completely immune from it automatically.

 

[James the Persian]

Hell or Hades is the center of the earth where there is only fire.

Please tell me that you don't mean that literally.

James

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

I find it interesting, Mister T, that within this passage of Scripture you quoted, you conveniently overlooked some pretty important verses, which I have highlighted in red. Problems always arise when we take verses out of context. God is definitely love, but that doesn't automatically nullify Jesus' work on the cross, which, if it wasn't to save us from hell, then He went through an awful lot of suffering for nothing. It always bothers me when people pick and choose verses to back up their beliefs.

If Jesus suffered for nothing, he was by no means the only person in human history to do so.

Jesus said a lot of hard things, which people tend to ignore....such as:

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

As a Christian, I feel it is my responsibility to adhere to the whole of Scripture, and not just to the parts that make me feel warm and fuzzy. Christianity is not an easy "religion" for many to accept---I understand this. I resisted it myself for a long time. It makes claims that many other religions don't have the audacity to make. It makes many people feel uncomfortable. However, I notice that many people love to laud this great man named Jesus, for His wisdom, His love, and His compassion----but I wonder.....had any of us lived during His life, and seen Him in person, would we have been the ones praising Him then, or crucifying Him? I ask myself that. Would I have been one of those jeering at Him? And when I really examine myself, I have to admit that I would definitely be capable of doing such a thing. The truth of the matter is, people hated Jesus....how could they hate such a great guy? Apparently He offended a lot of people, and wasn't quite the tame, non-confrontational, lovey-lovey guy many make Him out to be.

Sooo....I guess what I'm trying to say is, if people in Jesus' day were offended by Him, then I should not be surprised if people today are offended or put off by my faith in Him.

The problem isn't the "offensiveness" of Jesus' positions (although I do admit, there is very much an us-vs.-them mentality present in many Christian circles). The issue is whether he can lay claim to such statements, or possibly whether some guy 2000 years ago made them in the first place.

You seen 300?

 

[Mister_T]

If Jesus suffered for nothing, he was by no means the only person in human history to do so.



The problem isn't the "offensiveness" of Jesus' positions (although I do admit, there is very much an us-vs.-them mentality present in many Christian circles). The issue is whether he can lay claim to such statements, or possibly whether some guy 2000 years ago made them in the first place.

You seen 300?

How is that in relation to Jesus?

 

[Popeyesays]

I think you will find yourself disillusioned if you think God works on the basis of your belief. He has the power to send people wherever He wishes. Hell or Hades is the center of the earth where there is only fire. Heaven exists outside of the time cycles.

The Apostle Paul disagrees. He knows that he is capable of sin even though he wishes it to be otherwise. Jesus saves from sin so it is less likely for a Christian to sin but Christians are not completely immune from it automatically.

As Sophocles said, "Count no man fortunate until he is dead."

The previous poster said he did not believe in the existence of heaven and hell. Neither do I. Heaven and hell are metaphors for a spiritual state, and one can be in those spiritual states while still alive.

In my belief the next world is one place, and the souls who go there find themselves to be whereever they think they should be. The next life is as full of the hope of salvation as this one is.

God's JUSTICE is infinite and exacting. So is His mercy. That dichotomy contains all of man's hope.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

How is that in relation to Jesus?

Because:

If Jesus suffered for nothing, he was by no means the only person in human history to do so.

And it's not entirely unlikely that this happened. Of course, if this is so, the entire Gospel is undone.

The problem isn't the "offensiveness" of Jesus' positions (although I do admit, there is very much an us-vs.-them mentality present in many Christian circles). The issue is whether he can lay claim to such statements, or possibly whether some guy 2000 years ago made them in the first place.

Or was this what you were asking about?

You seen 300?

Lots of religious themes in there and references to the "one true god." IMO this was *the* most underrated facet of the movie.

 

[Hope]

So since I'm what you'd call an agonostic theist and not a born-again Christian, would I be one of those Romans who would be nailing Jesus to the cross and cheering? Even though I am a huge fan of his?

No. I never meant to imply anything of the sort.

The fact of the matter is, every human that ever lived, is living, and will live, is responsible for Jesus' death. Our sins got him nailed to the tree, not the Pharisees or the Romans. I was only trying to point out a lot of people disliked Jesus. Neither you nor I can really be sure which side of the fence we'd have been on, in regards to Jesus, had we lived during His time. I'm not trying to judge you----I can't, without judging myself.

I respect your opinions, and I must simply respectfully disagree with them. I don't feel like trying to explain myself till I'm blue in the face. I'm not here to bash people like you over your heads with what I believe, and try to force you to believe as I do----I'm only here to debate and stand up for what I believe.

 

[Hope]

If Jesus suffered for nothing, he was by no means the only person in human history to do so.

And it's not entirely unlikely that this happened. Of course, if this is so, the entire Gospel is undone.

You hit the nail on the head. Thank you.

If Jesus did not die on that cross for my sins, to save me from hell, then His death was pointless.

 

[Mister_T]

Because:



And it's not entirely unlikely that this happened. Of course, if this is so, the entire Gospel is undone.



Or was this what you were asking about?



Lots of religious themes in there and references to the "one true god." IMO this was *the* most underrated facet of the movie.

I was talking about 300. I just underlined it instead of isolating it. I've got to learn not to be so lazy.

 

[Mister_T]

No. I never meant to imply anything of the sort.

Ok. I was just checking.

I was only trying to point out a lot of people disliked Jesus. Neither you nor I can really be sure which side of the fence we'd have been on, in regards to Jesus, had we lived during His time.

That is an angle I have not considered. There is definitely truth in this.

I respect your opinions, and I must simply respectfully disagree with them. I don't feel like trying to explain myself till I'm blue in the face.

Fair enough. I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree.

I'm not here to bash people like you over your heads with what I believe

People like me? I guess I'm in a class of my own. I'm flattered.

 

[Muffled]

As Sophocles said, "Count no man fortunate until he is dead."

The previous poster said he did not believe in the existence of heaven and hell. Neither do I. Heaven and hell are metaphors for a spiritual state, and one can be in those spiritual states while still alive.

In my belief the next world is one place, and the souls who go there find themselves to be whereever they think they should be. The next life is as full of the hope of salvation as this one is.

God's JUSTICE is infinite and exacting. So is His mercy. That dichotomy contains all of man's hope.

Regards,
Scott

I really like to go by what Jesus says. He talks about Heaven and Hell as real places. There is no doubt that Jesus speaks metaphorically at times but usually that is detectable.

There isn't a next world. As a disembodied spirit, you exist in this world. You are correct in your assessment that the spirit is able to go where it wills but God can alter that if He wishes. Before the Resurrection probably most people in the west went into the grave with the body because they just didn't know any better. There are still people who are apt to stay with the body. When the world ends with fire anyone staying with the body can be swallowed up into the bowels of the earth. Before that there is the invitation to the Rapture.

There is always hope of salvation but a spirit carries with it learned experiences from life and that is all that there is. If a person was hateful in life they will bear that in their spiritual life. So my thinking is that it takes an earthly life to bring a person salvation.

There is a reward for good and punishment for the wicked. The devil is sent into the lake of fire. The good are rewarded with Paradise and/or The Kingdom of God on Earth. The wicked either end up in hell or in a spiritual state removed from the body.
The temporal situation we are in now allows the wicked to be reborn with a judgement that comes with that birth. (As my daughter bewails "Why couldn't I have been born rich?" ) Those who have faith in God who don't go to Paradise will find their rebirth to be a reward for their good works. I tend to think that God does not return the wicked as quickly to life.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

I was talking about 300. I just underlined it instead of isolating it. I've got to learn not to be so lazy.

lol it's cool.

First, have you seen 300 yet? If so, what did you think about all the allusions to the "King of kings" and "God of gods"?

 

[Hope]

I'm not here to bash people like you over your heads with what I believe [quote by Hope]

People like me? I guess I'm in a class of my own. I'm flattered.

My wording wasn't the best there.....my apologies. :bonk: