Something (else) I don't get about Christianity

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

No. The point those passages are trying to make is that hate does not come from God. There are many kind and loving Atheists.

Well okay. But what happens when Christians practice hate? And please don't say that real Christians don't practice hate, because they can and have done so.

 

[Mister_T]

Well okay. But what happens when Christians practice hate?

Well now, that's not very Christ-like. Is it?

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Well now, that's not very Christ-like. Is it?

No True Scotsman fallacy. Again, it can and has happened.

 

[Mister_T]

And please don't say that real Christians don't practice hate, because they can and have done so

It's one thing to have hateful feelings. People are not perfect and this is bound to happen, even to Christians.

It's when a persons life is consumed by hatred. Those aren't real Christians I'm sorry to say.

 

[A. Leaf]

Christ never said he was the Son of God, said he was the Son of Man. When with his Disciples in joint prayer according to the Holy Bible, he would say, 'Our Father'.

We are all children of God.

 

[wizanda]

its one of the major points against Paul, John and Simon testimonies; basically Christianity, as it is opposed to Christ so much and teaches as Balaam: (Mic 6:6)

Mat 9:13
(13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Hos 6:6
(6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Mat 12:7
(7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

So he asked for his life, he wasn’t needed to be killed that was their choice and in doing cut off Isreal.
Now all of Christianity swearing by a sacrifice, makes them self’s guilty also.

 

[Mister_T]

its one of the major points against Paul, John and Simon testimonies; basically Christianity, as it is opposed to Christ so much and teaches as Balaam: (Mic 6:6)

Mat 9:13
(13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Hos 6:6
(6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Mat 12:7
(7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

So he asked for his life, he wasn’t needed to be killed that was their choice and in doing cut off Isreal.
Now all of Christianity swearing by a sacrifice, makes them self’s guilty also.

But when you isolate those passages I underlined, they do not conflict with Christ's message at all.

 

[*Paul*]

On the contrary, Jesus said.

Jn 10v36: Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

[Muffled]

Greetings Mystic. Some of us would be deeply honored to join Ghandi - wherever he is!

He is probably around somewhere having been reborn. It is highly unlikely that Ghandi would go to heaven because it isn't based on good deeds. Good deeds make your life better on earth and help ensure a better rebirth but all who enter heaven no longer have the option to choose evil. Free will only exists in a world where evil is allowed.

 

[Muffled]

If we keep going with the analogy of evangelism as a product, do you think it's better to misrepresent the product to make more people happy (i.e. tell people something contrary to the theology just to make it more attractive), or is it better to present the idea with truth in advertising? If a religion believes that all people who don't believe in that religion are going to hell, why should they lie about that? To make people more comfortable? Having such truth in advertising weeds out the people who probably wouldn't want to be a part of that religion. Like someone who rejects Karma as "blaming the victim" probably wouldn't make a good Buddhist. Likewise, someone who rejects the idea that only people of a certain religion get a pleasant afterlife probably shouldn't convert to Christianity.

You may catch more flies with honey, but it doesn't do anyone any good if it turns out that the honey was actually vinegar all along.

This makes sense if the person has no desire to go to Heaven. However if your goal is to get to Heaven, choosing anything but Christianity doesn't make any sense.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but probably not on Religious Forums. Why would a person choose their own religion? It probably is akin to the joke about the man in a flood on a rooftop rejecting salvation from a boat and a helicopter because it wasn't the salvation he believed in. If you have a religion that can get you to Heaven, well and good. The truth remains that there is only one religion that can actually do this and that is Christianity.

 

[uumckk16]

Here's the NIV translation which is a bit easier to understand. Check out the underlined.
This next one is my personal favorite......

Thanks Mister_T and Tigress...I truly love those passages!

So all people who hate are atheists?

Well okay. But what happens when Christians practice hate? And please don't say that real Christians don't practice hate, because they can and have done so.

You're equating "knowing God" with "believing in God." I think the two are distinctly different, and so while I can see why you're making these points, I don't think that's what the passage is saying. It says, "Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." I don't think it means literally knowing God...it's a different type of "knowing God" - the kind where God lives in us, as is asserted a few verses later. In other words, when we love, God lives in us. So an atheist who loves knows God, even if they don't believe they do. A Christian who hates doesn't know God, even if they believe they do.

That's how I interpret the passage, anyway.

 

[A. Leaf]

On the contrary, Jesus said.

Jn 10v36: Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Well In, never noticed before, but I would Imagine he would also so say, are you not, brother?

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

This makes sense if the person has no desire to go to Heaven. However if your goal is to get to Heaven, choosing anything but Christianity doesn't make any sense.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but probably not on Religious Forums. Why would a person choose their own religion? It probably is akin to the joke about the man in a flood on a rooftop rejecting salvation from a boat and a helicopter because it wasn't the salvation he believed in. If you have a religion that can get you to Heaven, well and good. The truth remains that there is only one religion that can actually do this and that is Christianity.

Hi, Muffled.

Did you get a chance to check out the OP?

Thanks Mister_T and Tigress...I truly love those passages!

You're equating "knowing God" with "believing in God." I think the two are distinctly different, and so while I can see why you're making these points, I don't think that's what the passage is saying. It says, "Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." I don't think it means literally knowing God...it's a different type of "knowing God" - the kind where God lives in us, as is asserted a few verses later. In other words, when we love, God lives in us. So an atheist who loves knows God, even if they don't believe they do. A Christian who hates doesn't know God, even if they believe they do.

That's how I interpret the passage, anyway.

The difference between "knowing God" and "believing in God" could ultimately impact someone's eternity?

Hos 6:6
(6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Yes! There it is! :bow:

 

[uumckk16]

The difference between "knowing God" and "believing in God" could ultimately impact someone's eternity?

Uh...what?

I wasn't talking about salvation...I was talking about love.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The metaphor is to serve as a representation of the master/servant relationship. The reason the dog/master metaphor is so useful is because a large majority can relate to the metaphor and understand the ridiculous concept of a pet trying to dictate the actions of the owner. It does not mean in any measure that I consider men to be dogs. It means that I consider men to be servants of God. And as servants we are not to dictate the actions or attitude of our master.

Yea but i have seen many dogs turn orn their masters and i've heard plenty of stories of dogs killing their masters so you may have to find a new analogy...



I'm just funnin'......

But really...I understood what you were getting at.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Ah welcome to being an ebionite. We do not follow the Epistles of Paul for just this reason they contradict and confuse the clarification that Christ gave us.

I rather like the Ebonites. I too do not except Paul. Although mine is not from a religioous position due to me being an Athiest.

I still hold to the opinion that Yeshua was a Jew and died a jew. Altough he preached and taught love he also preached and taught the law of his people. He said he wasn't here to change it and it wouldn't change......just my .02

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Exactly.

---
To the original question, I say: Don't worry about "God" allowing you to enter heaven or sending you to hell. Until you experience it and can prove it, the two places don't exist. (IMO: They're just hogwash created by religion to scare people into believing)
Live life to the fullest here and now, and stop worrying about some place you don't know about...

Ahhh yes...

People here looking for truth by throwing out a whole bunch of chapter anverses...he said she said....website here...website there..... And ALL of it is speculation, assumption and assertion......

I with you Othello the "Free Thinker"

 

[Dirty Penguin]

People want to rationalize and debate with God? There is no debate with God. There is no room for contempt. If there was proof, the faith requirement would be a no brain-er huh?

What I don't understand is why this is such an issue. If you don't believe in God, why concern your self about the terms to get to an afterlife?

Could it be that on a Friday night..instead of sitting here picking one's nose... I would find it more fun and interesting debating with you???????

Unless you are busy sitting there picking you nose.....

 

[des]

I always like your posts DreGod, though I don't share his more atheistic viewpoints. I also agree that I don't usually care much for Paul.(I also think he said wonderful things about love.) And also think that what Jesus taught and preached was often at odds with Paul. I also think Paul, not Jesus, was the true founder of Christianity, as we know it at least. (Or perhaps we need to go further forward in time to some other historical figure.)

It's interesting to me that Christians take great stock in quoting scripture to prove their points. I have to remind someone that those verses only "work" when one has faith that those verses are true, in the sense that they read them.

I think there is much *wisdom* in the Bible (and the Quaran and the various lesser known great works of the Hindus, Buddhists, and the great oral traditions, and in literature and art, etc. etc.) *but* it is quite another thing to go and quote out of those and say, "well it says this here and therefore it must be true". I know *you* believe it to be true, but that is because you have made a leap of faith to take those writings and to be true. But others have read those same things and don't think they are true, at least not in that literal way.

One thing you could know definitely about from experience is the power of love. This would be a much better world (in this world) if everyone loved and cared for each other and cared for the world. I think we can know this based on our own experience with love vs hate or indifference. I don't need Paul to tell me that but he *describes* it and clarifies it in a beautiful and succinct way, and that is wisdom.

But that doesn't allow me to say "ok Paul, whatever else you say-- I like that too, I buy that completely and worship it".

I have great difficulty wiht any god figure that seems to have such rage against his own creation, that he would consign it to hell for all eternity, based on just not believing in him. I think this is inferior to human ethics.
I, for instance, know there are many people, most people, that do not know me at all, and one or two that really dislike me, maybe hate me. But I would personally not consign them to hell even for 1 minute. As I said, DreGod and I don't share the same views on a deity, and yet I can repect these views. But supposedly god does not. This makes me as a single wimpy individual way over where this god is in relationship to "his" "children". I don't even know DreGod. This god supposedly knows us initimately. I wouldn't cast DreGod (or anyone else) in hell for a nanosecond for disagreeing with me. We know that most civilized Western countries do not condone torture for evne the most heinous individuals. That makes humans superior morally to this sort of god. This is my view, as coming from outside the more conservative elements of the Christian church.

You can quote scriptures at me all day, but it would never convince me. Quoting scripture, I believe as argument is a tautology. It is true because it says here it is true. I am happy you have your own beliefs that nourish you. They just do not nourish me. In fact, I dislike them (but if I *could* throw you all in hell for that I would not, even for the merest second).


--des

I rather like the Ebonites. I too do not except Paul. Although mine is not from a religioous position due to me being an Athiest.

I still hold to the opinion that Yeshua was a Jew and died a jew. Altough he preached and taught love he also preached and taught the law of his people. He said he wasn't here to change it and it wouldn't change......just my .02

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There is a Bible verse that came to mind after reading thread. It went something like "If you know love, then you know God." or something along those lines. So if we love, love, then wouldn't that mean we love God?.........

I love cheese...Does that count?????