Some thoughts about the usual motivations of Christianity and Islaam in practice

[Muffled]

Something else that occurs to me is that this craving for influence is one major reason why Christians and Muslims have such a hard time in accepting the existence of unbelievers.

The narrative of unfairness and persecution does not mesh at all well with the admission that people are entitled to disagree with their articles of faith, which are after all arbitrary beliefs.

I believe anyone who thinks he is entitled to disagree with God will find He doesn't accommodate that.

 

[james bond]

Thanks. You are of course welcome to point out any unfairnesses, mistakes or comments you might know of.

I've listened to you for two pages now and think you are biased.

Candida Moss is a writer for CNN, so you believe fake news over reputable sources. My advice is to get some other sources such as Open Doors.

If you lived in Brazil, then give us the lowdown on what has happened there.

Today, we have Catholics who think climate change is more important than persecuted Christians. Yes, persecution continues on as it has continued over centuries. These people know persecution is severe.

The Coliseum was lit up in the color of blood to show Christians being persecuted last month

US Catholics More Concerned About Climate Change Than Persecuted Christians

Persecution

World Watch List 2018 - Open Doors

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe anyone who thinks he is entitled to disagree with God will find He doesn't accommodate that.

That strikes me as a very hypothetical matter with no practical significance, since there is no actual revelation from God that I know of.

But beyond that, your statement also strikes me as self-contradictory. You seem to be very close to saying outright that God has not decided whether he allows people to disagree with him or not.

 

[LuisDantas]

I've listened to you for two pages now and think you are biased.

You don't say! And I so hoped to earn a reputation towards you.

Candida Moss is a writer for CNN, so you believe fake news over reputable sources. My advice is to get some other sources such as Open Doors.

Actually, there is little need to even attempt to believe her. She does bring a lot of useful reminders, though.

If you live in Brazil, then give us the lowdown on what has happened there.

About what? Brazil is a big place where lots of things happen.

Today, we have Catholics who think climate change is more important than persecuted Christians.

As well we should.

Yes, persecution continues on as it has continued over centuries. These people know persecution is severe.

The Coliseum was lit up in the color of blood to show Christians being persecuted last month

US Catholics More Concerned About Climate Change Than Persecuted Christians

Persecution

World Watch List 2018 - Open Doors

Funny.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't believe what you wrote has much to do with Christianity. I believe a lot of the flack Christians get is from a reaction to evangelism. Evangelism tends to disturb a person's comfort zone.

There is something to that.

What Christianity actually is ends up being a difficult question. Opinions are all over the place.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Coliseum was lit up in the color of blood to show Christians being persecuted last month

That's funny because there's no evidence the Coliseum was the site of any persecution of Christians.

 

[Ponder This]

I recently learned of "The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom", by Candida Moss.

It gave me quite some food for thought. It was already quite apparent that many Christians are much too eager to position themselves as "persecuted", but I had not realized quite how mainstream that trait has been historically.

There is a perverse yet effective irony at work there. By being encouraged to perceive themselves as wronged people, Christians (and Muslims) all too often end up oblivious to their own abuses of trust and power. Peer reinforcement and plain confort of convenience blunt their self-awareness to the point of full alienation and delusion. Both Christians and Muslims have a long history of acquiring and brandishing both military and political power even as they keep complaining of being misunderstood, persecuted and discriminated against, sometimes bordering on self-parody.

If anything, Islaam suffers from the same defects to an even greater degree. It has been noted that the Qur'ans attitude towards non-believers is consistently arrogant and hypocritical. According to Bill Warner, slightly over half of the Qur'an, Sira and Hadith are actually about non-Muslims. (Source: Kafir with a Capital K - Political Islam )

And indeed, the typical attitude of Muslim apologists is very often and very predictably one based on the assumption that Islaam inherently deserves better than whatever the current situation warrants it... despite the plain fact that Islaamic people have attained power very often in very large communities over continental expanses of land, far too often drawing a lot of blood while at it. We are often reminded that ISIS and other plainly violent groups have Muslim victims, and we are often pressured towards raising doubt on whether those groups should be considered Muslims at all.

Those are marks of adherents of doctrines that teach people to avoid responsibility over their own beliefs and to prefer to take refuge in audacity, arrogance, denial and just plain irresponsibility. By framing their cravings and fears as some form of piety - often enough necessary piety for the "protection of the oppressed" no less, and supposedly in an attempt at pleasing "the one and only God" for good measure - those doctrines create a most impressive trap that impedes its people from actually growing in the spiritual sense.

Cravings for more power, more protection from criticism and more promises of simply deserving better are of course all too human and understandable. But I don't think that they should be raised to actual articles of faith, and definitely not given routine passes simply because people claim to be receiving directives from God.

Of course, both Islaam and Christianity number into the billions and have plenty of true rebels against those waves of immature conformity to the appearance of rebellion. But those waves are still the movers and shakers for the influence of both doctrines, and it is difficult to create meaningful renewal against those fears and cravings.

How accurate do you think these thoughts are? Do you want to contribute any related thoughts?

I suppose the thoughts are "accurate" in the sense that you or other people have had them - a few facts, some opinions, par for the course!

I would like to add that people without scruples have often sought to manipulate the masses via religion for their own (political) purposes. It is a tale as old as time and often sad. To my knowledge this is true of every religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

I suppose the thoughts are "accurate" in the sense that you or other people have had them - a few facts, some opinions, par for the course!

I would like to add that people without scruples have often sought to manipulate the masses via religion for their own (political) purposes. It is a tale as old as time and often sad. To my knowledge this is true of every religion.

While I agree, that does not mean that we should simply accept that passively. Nor that the adherents themselves should not offer discernment and resistance to that manipulation.

Nor does it follow that everything that is labelled a "religion" should be considered as such, and less still that all are equally suitable for the manipulative doctrines.

 

[Prestor John]

I recently learned of "The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom", by Candida Moss.

It gave me quite some food for thought. It was already quite apparent that many Christians are much too eager to position themselves as "persecuted", but I had not realized quite how mainstream that trait has been historically.

There is a perverse yet effective irony at work there. By being encouraged to perceive themselves as wronged people, Christians (and Muslims) all too often end up oblivious to their own abuses of trust and power. Peer reinforcement and plain confort of convenience blunt their self-awareness to the point of full alienation and delusion. Both Christians and Muslims have a long history of acquiring and brandishing both military and political power even as they keep complaining of being misunderstood, persecuted and discriminated against, sometimes bordering on self-parody.

If anything, Islaam suffers from the same defects to an even greater degree. It has been noted that the Qur'ans attitude towards non-believers is consistently arrogant and hypocritical. According to Bill Warner, slightly over half of the Qur'an, Sira and Hadith are actually about non-Muslims. (Source: Kafir with a Capital K - Political Islam )

And indeed, the typical attitude of Muslim apologists is very often and very predictably one based on the assumption that Islaam inherently deserves better than whatever the current situation warrants it... despite the plain fact that Islaamic people have attained power very often in very large communities over continental expanses of land, far too often drawing a lot of blood while at it. We are often reminded that ISIS and other plainly violent groups have Muslim victims, and we are often pressured towards raising doubt on whether those groups should be considered Muslims at all.

Those are marks of adherents of doctrines that teach people to avoid responsibility over their own beliefs and to prefer to take refuge in audacity, arrogance, denial and just plain irresponsibility. By framing their cravings and fears as some form of piety - often enough necessary piety for the "protection of the oppressed" no less, and supposedly in an attempt at pleasing "the one and only God" for good measure - those doctrines create a most impressive trap that impedes its people from actually growing in the spiritual sense.

Cravings for more power, more protection from criticism and more promises of simply deserving better are of course all too human and understandable. But I don't think that they should be raised to actual articles of faith, and definitely not given routine passes simply because people claim to be receiving directives from God.

Of course, both Islaam and Christianity number into the billions and have plenty of true rebels against those waves of immature conformity to the appearance of rebellion. But those waves are still the movers and shakers for the influence of both doctrines, and it is difficult to create meaningful renewal against those fears and cravings.

How accurate do you think these thoughts are? Do you want to contribute any related thoughts?

Both Christianity and Islam have their roots amidst heated persecution.

I don't know how appropriate it is to equate the decisions made by Christian or Islamic nations with the doctrines of Christianity and Islam.

 

[james bond]

You don't say! And I so hoped to earn a reputation towards you.



Actually, there is little need to even attempt to believe her. She does bring a lot of useful reminders, though.



About what? Brazil is a big place where lots of things happen.



As well we should.




Funny.

Your rep just shows that you forge your opinions from fake sources in order to provide consolation. Perhaps you are the one who feels this mythical persecution. The myth is what Candida Moss writes and no thinking person should take her seriously. Yet, you ate it up like it was GMO food. So, it's a little toxic. It went to your brain. You source CNN, really?

I only brought up Brazil because perhaps you had some religious influences while growing up. Either positive or negative. If not anything religious, then what influenced you?

Climate change? What happened to global warming? It was debunked long ago, so you had to change the screed. I'll believe climate change when its leaders stop flying in private jets and start practicing what they preach. It's the biggest hypocrisy in the world. I'm for clean air, water and conservation of our resources, but don't worry about mythical CO2 damage. I don't hear that from CNN which is piped in to my fitness center.

And there is nothing funny about persecution. It's bullying due to one's beliefs.

 

[james bond]

That's funny because there's no evidence the Coliseum was the site of any persecution of Christians.

It should have been Colosseum. My bad.

 

[LuisDantas]

Your rep just shows that you forge your opinions from fake sources in order to provide consolation. Perhaps you are the one who feels this mythical persecution.

I look forward for the movie, James. There is a lot going for high fantasy works.

The myth is what Candida Moss writes and no thinking person should take her seriously. Yet, you ate it up like it was GMO food. So, it's a little toxic. It went to your brain. You source CNN, really?

Why do you think I rely on her? Or that I would care about your opinions when they are so half-made?

I only brought up Brazil because perhaps you had some religious influences while growing up. Either positive or negative. If not anything religious, then what influenced you?

Can you give that some form? There seems to be an actual question there struggling to get out.

Climate change? What happened to global warming? It was debunked long ago, so you had to change the screed. I'll believe climate change when its leaders stop flying in private jets and start practicing what they preach. It's the biggest hypocrisy in the world. I'm for clean air, water and conservation of our resources, but don't worry about mythical CO2 damage. I don't hear that from CNN which is piped in to my fitness center.

And there is nothing funny about persecution. It's bullying due to one's beliefs.

Fantasy is nice. But we all need to learn to deal with reality sometime, James.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It should have been Colosseum. My bad.

Either way, my point stands.

 

[james bond]

I look forward for the movie, James. There is a lot going for high fantasy works.



Why do you think I rely on her? Or that I would care about your opinions when they are so half-made?



Can you give that some form? There seems to be an actual question there struggling to get out.



Fantasy is nice. But we all need to learn to deal with reality sometime, James.

The Persecution Of Jesus As Aliens, Zombies And Climate Change Takes Over The World. How's that for an award winning title?

You're the one who stated, " I recently learned of "The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom", by Candida Moss.

It gave me quite some food for thought. It was already quite apparent that many Christians are much too eager to position themselves as "persecuted", but I had not realized quite how mainstream that trait has been historically."

I can't help it if you like to eat junk food for the mind. Oh I'm sorry. I said mind. I realize you don't have a mind, but a brain. How's that working for you? Maybe your neurons are clogged by your Christian-bias filter. I'm just pointing out your bias due to biased sources. Maybe a wider range of sources will help. I mean you just tossed out thousands of years of religious persecution. in one sentence.

I just did ask you about what influenced you growing up in Brazil? A follow up question would be what do you know about other religions like Christianity? To the contrary, it seems to me that you have a lot of things you want to say, but don't say them when asked.

And there you go upsetting people again. It is annoying. Calling it a fantasy just because a CNN writer backs up your thinking doesn't make it so. It exposes your weakness.

 

[james bond]

Either way, my point stands.

Isn't that hypocritical? Persecution is only for those you side with?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Isn't that hypocritical? Persecution is only for those you side with?

Nope. It's just historical facts.

 

[Augustus]

I recently learned of "The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom", by Candida Moss.


It gave me quite some food for thought. It was already quite apparent that many Christians are much too eager to position themselves as "persecuted", but I had not realized quite how mainstream that trait has been historically.

The book's title it a bit clickbaity compared to the substance of her argument, which acknowledges that Christians were indeed persecuted to a fair degree, although the extent is somewhat exaggerated (which is often the case in many cultures who perceive themselves as victims).

She makes some pretty odd arguments, splitting hairs between 'persecution' and 'prosecution', pretty much arguing that 'they were asking for it' so it doesn't really count.

“It is claimed that Christians were persecuted for their religious beliefs, as if the treatment of Christians was a clean-cut case of religious persecution. But if we make the (arguably anachronistic) move of divorcing religion and politics, then the prosecution of early Christians is better understood as politically motivated. If the Roman emperors had a problem with Christians and Christianity, it was because they threatened the stability of the empire and appeared to make divisive political claims. Roman emperors did not take issue with nonthreatening things like baptism or hymns; they had problems with those aspects of Christianity that sounded like treason or revolution...

The Christians, as is by now clear, would not participate in the imperial cult, and to the Romans, this state of affairs was dangerous. From an ancient perspective, the presence of a religiously noncompliant group in any community was a threat to that community. Human flourishing was a delicate affair, and religion was one way in which health, political success, independence, good harvest, fine weather, and all aspects of everyday life were managed. The Christians threatened all of this. They threatened to disrupt the pax deorum (“peace of the gods”) and, in doing so, invited destruction on everyone. For the Romans, Christians’ nonparticipation in the imperial cult was threatening. Their stubbornness was not just disrespectful and iconoclastic; it could potentially bring down the empire.”

Moss, Candida. “The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom.”

 

[Ponder This]

While I agree, that does not mean that we should simply accept that passively. Nor that the adherents themselves should not offer discernment and resistance to that manipulation.

Well, what activity do you suppose that we should do to oppose the fact of manipulation? How do we "resist"?

Nor does it follow that everything that is labelled a "religion" should be considered as such, and less still that all are equally suitable for the manipulative doctrines.

Hmm, calling something a religion that isn't actually a religion sounds like manipulation to me! How do we stop people from doing that?

And I agree that not all religions are as easy to manipulate. Should intermediaries between the adherent and God set off alarm bells... or should we accept that religious leaders are a reality?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, what activity do you suppose that we should do to oppose the fact of manipulation? How do we "resist"?

By using discernment and questioning.

There is really no alternative.

Hmm, calling something a religion that isn't actually a religion sounds like manipulation to me! How do we stop people from doing that?

Mainly, we don't. "Religion" is quite the freestyle word, although most people don't seem to have fully realized that.

And I agree that not all religions are as easy to manipulate. Should intermediaries between the adherent and God set off alarm bells... or should we accept that religious leaders are a reality?

My take on it is that deities are strictly personal matters and there is essentially no reason to assume "a priori" that anyone's testimonial about their deities will apply to anyone else.

Monotheisms have a hard time accepting that, which is a main reason why they so often go wrong.

Religious leaders are very much a reality. But they do not earn a free pass. Their sayings are as questionable as anyone else's.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can't help it if you like to eat junk food for the mind. Oh I'm sorry. I said mind. I realize you don't have a mind, but a brain. How's that working for you? Maybe your neurons are clogged by your Christian-bias filter. I'm just pointing out your bias due to biased sources. Maybe a wider range of sources will help. I mean you just tossed out thousands of years of religious persecution. in one sentence.

Hey, James, come back when you want to talk. I am looking forward to that moment.

I just did ask you about what influenced you growing up in Brazil?

Hmm. Close proximity to lots of (nominal) Catholics, later also Protestants and Kardecist Spiritists. A near-complete avoidance of actually discussing religious matters, be them external or internal. A lot of appeal for me to accept various beliefs without any questioning. Strong prejudice against atheism.

Mainly, I learned that religion is not often taken seriously, while god-beliefs and animism receive way too much attention.

A follow up question would be what do you know about other religions like Christianity? To the contrary, it seems to me that you have a lot of things you want to say, but don't say them when asked.

Try me.

And there you go upsetting people again. It is annoying. Calling it a fantasy just because a CNN writer backs up your thinking doesn't make it so. It exposes your weakness.

James, if you do not enjoy a certain level of conversation, maybe you should not ask for it.