1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Some questions to JWs

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Mykola, May 17, 2006.

  1. Mykola

    Mykola Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Messages:
    139
    Ratings:
    +8
    Kind request:If you are not a JW, please don't bother yourself to answer the questions.


    According to Acts 1:11 the disciples SAW Jesus ascend into heaven and He is to return the same way.

    Revelation 1:7 say that upon His return “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”. This means clearly that even those people who hasn't accepted Jesus will see His return.

    Now, the question is:
    How does the official doctrine of JWs agree with above-mentioned scriptures?
    According to the Watchtower Society Jesus returned invisible in 1914 and only they [WS leaders] recognized it because as God’s modern day prophets only they had “eyes of understanding” and could spiritually discern it.

    How does it all add up?
     
  2. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +112
    What​
    is the meaning of Jesus’ coming "in the same manner" as he ascended to heaven?

    Acts 1:9-11: "While they [Jesus’ apostles] were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.’" (Notice that this says "the same manner," not the same body. What was the "manner" of his ascent? As verse 9 shows, he disappeared from view, his departure being observed only by his disciples. The world in general was not aware of what happened. The same would be true of Christ’s return.)
    What​
    is meant by his ‘coming on the clouds’ and ‘every eye seeing him’?

    Rev. 1:7: "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him." (Also Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27)​
    What​
    is indicated by "clouds"? Invisibility. When an airplane is in a thick cloud or above the clouds, people on the ground usually cannot see it, although they may hear the roar of the engines. Jehovah told Moses: "I am coming to you in a dark cloud." Moses did not see God, but that cloud indicated Jehovah’s invisible presence. (Ex. 19:9; see also Leviticus 16:2; Numbers 11:25.) If Christ were to appear visibly in the heavens, it is obvious that not "every eye" would see him. If he appeared over Australia, for example, he would not be visible in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, would he?​
    In​
    what sense will ‘every eye see him’? They will discern from events on earth that he is invisibly present. Also referring to sight that is not physical, John 9:41 reports: "Jesus said to [the Pharisees]: ‘If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, "We see." Your sin remains.’" (Compare Romans 1:20.) Following Christ’s return, some persons show faith; they recognize the sign of his presence. Others reject the evidence, but when Christ goes into action as God’s executioner of the wicked, even they will discern from the manifestation of his power that the destruction is not from men but from heaven. They will know what is happening because they were warned in advance. Because of what is overtaking them, they will "beat themselves in grief."​
    Who are "those who pierced him"? Literally, Roman soldiers did this at the time of Jesus’ execution. But they have long been dead. So this must refer to people who similarly mistreat, or ‘pierce,’ Christ’s true followers during "the last days."—Matt. 25:40, 45.
     
  3. Mykola

    Mykola Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Messages:
    139
    Ratings:
    +8
    At last... :)

    Thank you, May...

    Let's dig a bit more deeper than that...










    Again, let's read the text of Rev.1:7:
    "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him."
    Every eye - what does it mean? To me, it sounds like "every eye, no exclusions".
    Every disciple's eye? According to what translation can it be?






    Wow!
    Why's that?
    "In the clouds" could possibly indicate that, but "on the clouds" wouldn't, not within reason.​

    Did the disciples in Acts 1:11 recognize that Jesus was ascending to heaven on that day - the very moment of ascension - or did they figure it out some, say, 16 years later?

    May, you are obviously think that Jesus would come on the Cessna or Shuttle landing module or something like that... "Roar of engines", eh? :)
    I'd prefer to believe the Bible, and if I am told that every eye will see Him, I'd rather not question God's omnipotence.​




    In what sense you see your computer screen, friend?​

    Do you "discern it from events"?​

    What in the world allows you to interpret quite simple words in so weird and complex manner?​


    2 Peter 3:10 says : "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."


    Do you suppose to be able to miss that event, May?

    Okay, but where's any reference that 'eyes of understanding' will be needed to see Jesus' coming?

    Come on, I do not think that Roman soldiers possess immortality. But still, thank you for the comment :)






     
  4. Mykola

    Mykola Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Messages:
    139
    Ratings:
    +8
    May or any JW, please, answer the following:

    1) Did you know that the Watchtower’s first two presidents, Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford, who were alive in 1914 never taught that Jesus returned in 1914?

    2) Did you know that Russell taught Jesus returned in 1874 and that Rutherford taught the same up until 1929 when he changed the second coming to 1914. Why did they not have these “eyes of understanding”?

    3) Why did the Watchtower leaders teach for over 50 years of their history what they now consider to be a false date (1874) for Christ’s return?

    4) Why all the Jehovah’s Witnesses leaders who were supposed to have “eyes of understanding” in 1914 not see Jesus return in 1914 but insisted he returned in 1874?

    How does all this add up?
     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    3,665
    Ratings:
    +112
    Although( present )as King since 1914, Jesus Christ must yet judge systems and individuals before executing judgment on those he finds to be wicked. (Compare 2 Corinthians 5:10.) Jesus (presence ) which is happening right now since 1914, and his (coming), are to seperate things, many people confuse the two. that is why they get confused and do not understand things correctly .Jesus presence ( parousia)in kingdom power has been with us since 1914 , but his( coming )to execute judgement ............. no one knows the day or the hour............. now is the time to see and discern that Jesus is in kindom power , then when he comes to judge the nations ,we will not have to beat ourselves in grief, because of our bad attitude since he was made king in 1914, now is the time to recognize Jesus kingship , and welcome him as the rightful king on Jehovahs throne. his invisible presence in kingdom power is NOW happening , he has been made king in the heavenly goverment in 1914..
    And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin. daniel 7;14....daniel 2;44 butJesus has yet to go into action and get rid of the wicked , the door is still open , but there will come a time when Jehovah shuts the door , then it will be to late , and we could be those who are beating ourselves, NOW is the time to welcome Jesus as our king , before it is to late and Jehovah shuts the symbolic door of the ark.
    Just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
    (Matthew 24:3, 37)

     
Loading...