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Some Qs about the JW view of Jesus and angels

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Oh, so you're one of those who has the remarkably odd notion that a spiritual being does is immaterial. In that case, you and I have an irreconcilable difference. Good to know.

Only one way? Horse-****.
All Jews, since Sinai, are born without sin, i.e. without the moral contamination that Adam and Eve brought into the world and that non-Jews are born with. Ergo, Jesus, as a biological descendant of Jews who were at Sinai , was born sinless. The challenge for him was to remain sinless until his death. I suspect that you and I agree that he did.

Malarkey.

Because you don't a clue what the spirit realm is. I don't have difficulty believing that water can be changed into wine; I just don't know how to do it. I think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that wine can be created out of nothing called spirit.

Your points of disagreement are duly noted and thank you for demonstrating exactly what I said about hostile responses....but you do understand that it is a difference of opinion that is being discussed? Who told you that your opinion is correct? You take the high ground on what basis? Where is your argument....all I see is insults...?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So where were Moses and Elijah hiding between their last sighting by men and the transfiguration?

It was a vision.....Jesus, Moses and Elijah were representing the key parts of the Kingdom’s foundation....the basis of its operation were its King (Jesus) the Law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah). The transfiguration was in response to Jesus’ promise that some standing there would not taste death until they saw him coming in his Kingdom. Peter James and John had that privilege.....but Jesus told them not to mention the “vision” until after his resurrection. (Matthew 17:9)
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Your points of disagreement are duly noted and thank you
You're welcome.
thank you for demonstrating exactly what I said about hostile responses....
Hostile? I'm not hostile. I'm a little annoyed that you took it upon yourself to springboard off my post to Harel and, while you're at it, wave my "concerns" in my face, but once you get out of my face, my annoyance will dissipate immediately.
but you do understand that it is a difference of opinion that is being discussed?
I've found that discussing differences of opinion is usually a fruitless exercise when the folks discussing the differences aren't open to change. As a consequence, they usually end up as: "You're wrong; No, you're wrong; No, you're wrong" round-robbins until one of the folks finally wakes up and lets the other one have the last word.
You're just unhappy now because I haven't decided to let you have the last word, ... yet.
Who told you that your opinion is correct?
Excuse me? It's my opinion, and I'm the one who's telling me that I'm correct.
We're not talking facts here; we're talking beliefs and opinions. Yeah, it's a fact that you believe X and have an opinion Y; and it's a fact that I believe A and have an opinion B; but we're not talking "2 + 2 = 4" or "the sun is shining outside, today" facts from where I sit.
The fact that you believe X and have an opinion Y and the fact that I believe A and have an opinion B are irreconcilable facts. Only odd people imagine that irreconcilable facts can be reconciled; and only the naive believe that if they keep talking long enough they can change someone's beliefs and opinions.
You take the high ground on what basis?
On the basis of my God-given reason and my trust in the mercy of God my Fatherthrough my Lord Jesus Christ.
Where is your argument.?
Why would you want to see an argument? I'm just telling you that I don't agree with some of the things you've said. That's not an argument; it's actually not even a discussion.
all I see is insults...?
Insults? What insults?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I've found that discussing differences of opinion is usually a fruitless exercise when the folks discussing the differences aren't open to change. As a consequence, they usually end up as: "You're wrong; No, you're wrong; No, you're wrong" round-robbins until one of the folks finally wakes up and lets the other one have the last word.

On an internet "discussion" site, especially in a debate forum, it is what keeps them alive and kicking. No one wants to read a 'preaching to the converted' discussion on a debate site....do they? I like to see what other people believe and what they base their arguments on. If you have a point of view that is different to my own, by reading your reasons for your difference of opinion, I can get an insight into why you believe as you do. If you don't back up your arguments with references, all you're doing is voicing an opinion.....they are a dime a dozen on sites like these. You are not debating.

Excuse me? It's my opinion, and I'm the one who's telling me that I'm correct.
We're not talking facts here; we're talking beliefs and opinions.

I like facts.....who cares about opinions that are backed up with nothing? You can tell me that you disagree with my views but unless you provide reasons why bother being in a debate forum?

Only odd people imagine that irreconcilable facts can be reconciled; and only the naive believe that if they keep talking long enough they can change someone's beliefs and opinions.

Who said they had to be reconciled? By posting your beliefs, you give others a chance to evaluate them.
On internet forums the conversation is not just between two people....there are sometimes hundreds who are reading the conversation and making decisions. In these instances eavesdropping is encouraged.

On the basis of my God-given reason and my trust in the mercy of God my Father through my Lord Jesus Christ.

What does the "mercy" of God through Jesus Christ mean to you exactly in this reply?

Why would you want to see an argument? I'm just telling you that I don't agree with some of the things you've said. That's not an argument; it's actually not even a discussion.

It could have been at least a discussion, but it appears that you don't want to discuss any of your beliefs....are you afraid of doing so?
Help me understand your reluctance....for me, facts means everything. I can't "believe" unless I have facts.

Insults? What insults?
I think we all saw them.....:rolleyes:

Is this how you speak to someone who has called your beliefs into question? We are in a debate forum.....so where is your debate? :shrug:

Vision? LOL! Another irreconcilable difference between us.

OK....post your reasons for the irreconcilable difference....read the title of the OP....why are you here?
 

swanlake

Member
Jesus himself had this conversation with the religious leaders of his day. For they wanted to murder him for blasphemy because he called himself the son of God. And he even told them that before Abraham lived he was alive.

Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”  Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”  So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.-John 8:57-59.

The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”  Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?  If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?-John 10:33-36.

That scripture Jesus quoted them is from Psalm 82:1:

“I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.

Verse 6:

God takes his place in the divine assembly;
In the middle of the gods he judges.

In the Psalm Jehovah was talking to the elder men of Israel that had the responsibility of judging the people. God designated them the title "gods" or "godlike ones" in the fact that they acted as God's representatives in judging cases and holding power.

So even Jehovah God himself recognizes that there are other god-like beings, or "gods." In the Psalm he called human judges gods. Certainly, in comparison to humans angels certainly can be looked at as gods in the sense that they are higher than us. It would not be improper from this standpoint to consider the firstborn of all creation a god, or godlike one. If you think about it, we could be considered gods, or god-like to our pets. We provide for them, give them food and water, and they don't do anything to help furnish it, for the most part.

When Jehovah sent Moses to Pharaoh Moses did not want to speak. So Jehovah said that he would send Aaron, Moses' older brother as his spokesman. And that Moses would be god, and Aaron would take the place of Moses in speaking to Pharaoh:


He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.-Exodus 4:16.

God is a title and while there is only one Almighty God who created all things, even in the Hebrew the title god, just as lord could be designated to others that act in the position of god or given authority from God to act on his behalf.

In fact now that I think of it, even the three angels that appeared to Abraham were referred to as God Jehovah. As were other angels at certain times in the Bible.


When the apostle John called Jesus "a god" or "a godlike one" he was not wrong in so doing. But he was not elevating Jesus to the status of Jehovah God. In fact in the very same chapter John stated that Jesus was "a god" he also stated that no man has ever seen God:

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.-John 1:18.

There in John 1:18 John clearly states that no one has ever seen God, but then he says that Jesus, the "only-begotten god" has explained him to us.

Jesus is the only-begotten because he was the first and only direct creation by Jehovah God. By means of Jesus Jehovah created all other things. So that no matter what it is, the things invisible and the things visible all things were created through Jesus, the only-begotten and for Jesus:

That is what scripture says here:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.-Colossians 1:15-16.


----

When Jesus came to earth from the spirit realm where he existed before the universe at Jehovah's side he did not descend as an angel, and did not materialize a human body. The scripture states that Jesus was transferred from God's side and put inside the womb of Mary and was born a human child. That is he was no longer a spirit. God transferred the life of Jesus miraculously to the womb of Mary and he was born a human child and grew up as a human. And when he died he ceased to exist. Just as what happens to all other humans when they die. After parts of three days he was resurrected in a heavenly spirit body in which he was able to return to heaven to Jehovah's side. After Jesus' resurrection when he appeared as a human to his disciples this is when he materialized a human body. This would explain how he was able to appear before them in a locked room on different occasion and was able to appear to them in a form they did not recognize.

When Jesus was dead sometime during those parts of three days God dematerialized his dead human body. He did not allow it to see decay.

You cannot simply just go to heaven because you die. Jesus explained this to Nicodemus. First you must be "born again" or "born from above."

Jesus did not have free access to heaven after he was born a human until he presented himself to do God's will and was baptized with water and holy spirit. That baptism made way for him to return to heaven. Jesus said no one can enter into the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again. No one will go to heaven unless they are born again from the holy spirit. That is they are adopted as sons of God and justified on the basis of Jesus' shed ransom. All humans that go to heaven have to die. They need to be transformed just as Jesus was, this is the new creation. When they die at God's time they will be raised in incorruptible and immortal spirit bodies in the imagine of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.

Before Jesus was raised to heaven there was only one person that possessed immortality. That was Jehovah God. That gift was granted Jesus after he died faithfully. All the anointed chosen and faithful that remain so down to the end also partake of divine nature and will go to heaven in spirit bodies far higher than the angels or the Devil. In that respect you can also say that they will be gods, or godlike ones.

The quality of their life is indesctrubible. They will never decay, they are able to live from within themselves unlike the other angels. It appears that this quality of life they possess in the from of God is also too powerful for humans to look upon. For it is said that Jesus Christ is too bright for a human to look at directly:

Scripture explains the nature of Jesus this way:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.-1 Timothy 6:14-16.

Jesus was the only one gifted immortality. But when the anointed Christian congregation is raised to heavenly spirit life they also put on immortality and will be like Jehovah God and Jesus Christ:

For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.”-1 Corinthians 15:53-55.


Those of us who have been called and chosen to reign in heaven right now cannot see Jehovah God or Jesus Christ just as they are, as they are spirits, and are too brilliant for our eyes to look upon. Jehovah told Moses that no one could look upon his face and live. But when we die and we are given the immortal spirit bodies then we will see him, that is God into his eyes, and we will see him and know him just as he is. For just as we bare the physical, then we will bare the spiritual. And just as he is we will be:

For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.-1 Corinthians 13:12.
I concur, my brother!
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
On an internet "discussion" site, especially in a debate forum, it is what keeps them alive and kicking. No one wants to read a 'preaching to the converted' discussion on a debate site....do they? I like to see what other people believe and what they base their arguments on. If you have a point of view that is different to my own, by reading your reasons for your difference of opinion, I can get an insight into why you believe as you do. If you don't back up your arguments with references, all you're doing is voicing an opinion.....they are a dime a dozen on sites like these. You are not debating.
  • For some reason that eludes my understanding, you appear to believe that every post in a thread must be defending or challenging an opinion. I don't. Yet another irreconcilable difference between us. How many is that? I've lost count.
You can tell me that you disagree with my views but unless you provide reasons why bother being in a debate forum?

Why are you obsessed with my motivation for "being in" this debate forum? What is your motivation for your obsession?

It could have been at least a discussion, but it appears that you don't want to discuss any of your beliefs....are you afraid of doing so?
Ha! The ol' "What? Are you a coward?" provocation to armwrestle.

How 'bout I take you on a little trip down Memory Lane?
  • My first post in this thread was to Harel, Post #10:
    But in JW's version of resurrection, x2 is a very good clone, because it's done by the Master Cloner.
  • My second post in this thread was to Harel, Post #16:
    I agree, but it makes for intriguing speculation regarding how it is that "the unique identity, personality, and memories" of X can be uploaded/downloaded/transferred or duplicated in X2, don'tcha think?
  • My third post in this thread was to Harel, Post #20:
    Neat! An Orthodox Jew who thinks Jesus' incarnation could be true.
  • My fourth post in this thread was to Eyes to See, Post #31:
    I do believe, if memory serves me, that you are the first and only person that I have ever met who invited me to believe that Jesus was 100% human when he was "transferred to"/installed in Mary's womb.
    Your belief that Jesus was 100% human prior to, upon, or even after transfer or installation and my definition of the minimum requirements for being 100% human differ, irreconcilably, which tells me that you and I don't even have a starting point to begin a debate, much less a discussion.
    But I appreciate your well-tempered telling me that. Thanks.
  • My fifth post in this thread was to Eyes to See, Post #33:
    It would take me far afield from the primary topic of this thread to explain why I can agree with your claim that Jesus was perfect. But my post #11 to Harel @ Questions is about the shortest way that I can explain why I do not agree with your claim that Jesus was 100% human if God was as involved in his conception as you say He was.

    @Eyes to See: Bold, blue, italic words posted after you read the first version of this post.
  • To which, I note, Eyes to See responded with:
    I really enjoyed the stimulating discussion here, Harl13 and Terry Sampson. And that was a dignified link Jayhake. Life calls me elsewhere for now.
  • My sixth post in this thread was to Harel, Post #46:
    Did you get your questions answered?
    I ask because, I'm still unclear about "the science" involved in Jesus' movement from being the Archangel Michael in heaven to being the "fully human" Jesus on earth before his death to being the flesh-and-blood spirit Jesus on earth after his death but before his ascension to being the exalted Michael-Jesus in heaven?
    So, if you got your questions answered and I'm still confused, I'm concerned that I may well be in early-to-middle stage senile dementia and need a thorough mental health check-up.
    Note: I'm not asking you to try to straighten me out; just asking if you got your questions answered to your satisfaction.
  • My seventh post was to URAVIP2ME, Post #62:
    Excellent recommendation, as was Israel Kahn's recommendation to check out "Insight into Scripture" (Vol. 1 and 2). So, now that there's really no need to ask a JW a question here in RF, when wwwjworg is a much more trustworthy source for JW theology, and since it is a well-established fact that JWs don't believe, much less accept, what non-JWs believe or think, the great mystery here and now is: Why would a JW, in his or her right mind, become a member of RF? Unless, of course, they're here to proselytize and/or voice their objections to things said in RF?
  • The apostate then posted Post #63: FYI

    Notice, I am using the OFFICIAL JW WEBSITE. Read the articles as well an the links and scriptural references to see whether I am taking the quotes out of context or not:

    Question Box — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    - "Therefore, publishers should not go online to seek out people from another country with whom to share the good news."

    Question Box — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


    https://www.jw.org/en/library/magaz...d-august-2018/publications-personal-websites/

    - "In addition, if we post our material on websites where people can make comments, this allows apostates [edit: I am an apostate. This writing in red is not part of the quote.] and others to criticize Jehovah’s organization. Some brothers then argue with these people, and that brings even more dishonor to Jehovah. Such discussions on the Internet are not the proper way to correct someone’s thinking and help him understand the truth. (1 Timothy 6:3-5; 2 Timothy 2:23-25) "
  • To which I responded with my eighth post, Post #66:
    Not that I doubted the truth of your statements, but ... I went to each of your links and bear witness to the accuracy of your claims. Fascinating.
  • Finally, you turned your attention to me, with an insulting attempt to provoke me into one of those futile debates that you seem to lust for--which I suspect you wanted to engage me in just because I bore witness to the accuracy of the apostate's claims--in Post #72, springboarding off my post to Harel (#46 above), to wit:
    • If that is how you interpreted things, then no wonder you are confused. :confused:
    • Since you have concerns about your mental health and don’t really want to be ‘straightened out’.....perhaps the explanation will assist others who might have wondered about those questions as well.....:D
  • Your words have not assisted me. But, what say, Sister, shall we poll the forum to see how many others had my questions and were awed by your explanation?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Goodness...was all that really necessary? o_O

For some reason that eludes my understanding, you appear to believe that every post in a thread must be defending or challenging an opinion. I don't. Yet another irreconcilable difference between us. How many is that? I've lost count.

If you are commenting in a debate forum and challenging the views of others, the OP was addressing JW's views on Jesus and Angels, was it not? I am addressing the views of JW's on these subjects and any others of interest because I am a JW.

Why are you obsessed with my motivation for "being in" this debate forum? What is your motivation for your obsession?

Obsession? All I asked for was to back up your claims...no one else's. You made some assertions and I asked you to supply the reasons for your beliefs.....not unheard of in a debate forum.

How 'bout I take you on a little trip down Memory Lane?

Not interested in memory lane....just in the response to the questions I directed to you. Is this a distraction?

The apostate then posted Post #63: FYI

Not interested in his responses either. Even the devil can quote scripture.

Finally, you turned your attention to me, with an insulting attempt to provoke me into one of those futile debates that you seem to lust for--which I suspect you wanted to engage me in just because I bore witness to the accuracy of the apostate's claims--in Post #72, springboarding off my post to Harel (#46 above), to wit:

Actually it was your own claims that I was interested in....

Like this one..."Oh, so you're one of those who has the remarkably odd notion that a spiritual being does is immaterial. In that case, you and I have an irreconcilable difference." No reference to anything just your opinion.

Or..."Because you don't a clue what the spirit realm is. I don't have difficulty believing that water can be changed into wine; I just don't know how to do it. I think it's a stretch of the imagination to say that wine can be created out of nothing called spirit."

Or this..."All Jews, since Sinai, are born without sin, i.e. without the moral contamination that Adam and Eve brought into the world and that non-Jews are born with. Ergo, Jesus, as a biological descendant of Jews who were at Sinai , was born sinless. The challenge for him was to remain sinless until his death." Again no backup for this opinion stated as if it was fact.

These are interesting questions but you cut off all discussion about them......why?

Your words have not assisted me.

Were they supposed to? Words affect different people in different ways....look at Jesus....some wanted to kill him...others wanted to die for him...Go figure...:shrug:

But, what say, Sister, shall we poll the forum to see how many others had my questions and were awed by your explanation?
People should be awed by God's explanations which are supplied richly in the Bible. :facepalm: I have seen little reference to scripture in your posts. Since you identify as "Xian" I assumed that you were some denomination of Christianity...? Was I wrong?

If you are confident in your beliefs why do you respond so defensively to my questions?
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
By posting your beliefs, you give others a chance to evaluate them.
On internet forums the conversation is not just between two people....there are sometimes hundreds who are reading the conversation and making decisions. In these instances eavesdropping is encouraged.
You want to give others a chance to evaluate beliefs, here's an idea:
Set up a debate with the Latter-Day-Saints under the "Same Faith Debate" forum or in the "Team Debate" sub-form under "One-on-One" Debates, and show all the rest of us how debates are properly done.
I think we all saw them.....
That's what I thought; you can't identify the insults.
Is this how you speak to someone who has called your beliefs into question?
Is what how I speak? You haven't identified precisely what it was that failed to meet your expectations. And would that you only questioned my beliefs, I'd have ignored you. But you began your little lecture to me with:
If that is how you interpreted things, then no wonder you are confused. :confused: Pre-conceived ideas, that have no basis in scriptures, can get in the way.
and
Since you have concerns about your mental health and don’t really want to be ‘straightened out’.....perhaps the explanation will assist others who might have wondered about those questions as well.....
Not interested in memory lane....
I suspected as much, but felt moved to try to shed some light somewhere for you.
Not interested in his responses either.
Of course you wouldn't be. What surprises me is that you're interested in hearing mine.
These are interesting questions but you cut off all discussion about them......why?
Because I don't expect any of them to make any difference in your beliefs.
f you are confident in your beliefs why do you respond so defensively to my questions?
You misinterpret my reluctance to waste my time giving my reasons when I'm as confident that they will not change your beliefs as I am of the beliefs that I am confident in. You really need to work on your interpreting skills.
 
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Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
If you are commenting in a debate forum and challenging the views of others, the OP was addressing JW's views on Jesus and Angels, was it not?
At least you know what the OP was addressing.
Now, show me precisely where I first challenged the JW's views on Jesus and Angels, ... before you decided to give me a lesson on JW theology. Quote my words, or take a hike.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi Deeje

Regarding the 2 main Gods in J.W. theology, Deeje explained : "Because the “god” (mighty one) who is Jesus is not worshipped but honoured..."

Clear asked : So, if I understand you correctly, God #1, i.e. God the Father is "worshipped" in J.Witness theology, but God #2 i.e. Jesus is "honored" (but not "worshipped").

1) Can you then explain the difference between the "honor" that you give to one God and the "worship" you give to another God and why, having two Gods, does not make this polytheism.

2) If there are two Gods, does this not make polytheism REGARDLESS of whether a God is worshiped or not? Can you elucidate?


1) Deeje replied : The word “pro·sky·neʹo” can be translated as either “worship” (of the sort given to a deity) or “obeisance” given to a person whose position calls for honour. Context determines the correct rendering and understanding. Agreed?

Yes, many Greek words can have multiple meanings. Can you then explain the difference between the "honor" that you give to one God and the "worship" you give to another God and why, having two Gods, does not make this polytheism?

2) Deeje said : "One example I can think of is when Australians (British system) used to address a judge in court as “your worship”. This in no way implied that worship be given to such judges and in other countries a judge is addressed as “your honor”. That is what we understand can happen when people misinterpret a word. A “god” isn’t always worshipped.....but they can be given due respect and honor."

Yes, judges are addressed by different titles.
However, can you explain the difference between the feeling of "honor" that you give to one God and the feeling of "worship" you give to another God and why, having two Gods, does not make this a form of polytheism?

3) Deeje said : "....isn’t it obvious that the problem is in the interpretation, not the actual word?"

Perhaps, but your answer is insufficient to clarify the difference inside j. Witness theology.


Can you explain how j. Witnesses interpret their feeling of HONOR for their God#2 (jesus) and how that differs from their WORSHIP of their God #1 (the father).

Also, if there are two Gods in jehovah's witness theology, then how is this claim that there are multiple Gods not polytheism?

Thanks again for any clarification you can provide.

Clear
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Thanks again for any clarification you can provide.
Forgive my meddling here, but my wild guess is that you'll make more progress in understanding the JW's, whether you agree with them or not if you stick to referring to God #1 and start referring to god #2.
God #1 and God #2 would be JW polytheism. God #1 and god #2 is more long the lines of JW monotheism.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
many Greek words can have multiple meanings. Can you then explain the difference between the "honor" that you give to one God and the "worship" you give to another God and why, having two Gods, does not make this polytheism?

God, Jehovah is the one Jesus said to worship...."him only" (Luke 4:8) So in honoring the son we do not have two gods. We have one God who is the Father, just as Paul stated..."For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

No one ever addressed Jesus as God Almighty....not once....ever. No one ever worshipped him, though many did obeisance to him. They are not the same thing. Context tells us how to translate “pro·sky·neʹo” when referring to the one receiving it.....it is "worship" only when given to Almighty God...at all other times it is "obeisance", which is something you can offer to one who has authority over you.

1) We do not give Jesus equality with his Father because he never once implied it, or sought it. As a created, begotten son of God, he will never be equal to "The Most High God" (who is also his God and Creator) because there can only be one who occupies that position. (Psalm 83:18; John 17:3; John 20:17)

2) We are not to pray to the son but only to the Father through the mediator he appointed.....Jesus Christ. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

We thank God and praise him for sending his precious son to offer his life for us, which he did willingly because of his love for mankind. (John 3:16) We also praise him for the earth's abundance and for its beauty, despite the fact that it is under assault from greedy humans under satanic influence. (1 John 5:19) But we know that when the kingdom comes, all who oppose God's rulership will have no place on his earth, as he returns it and us to his original purpose. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Yes, judges are addressed by different titles.
However, can you explain the difference between the feeling of "honor" that you give to one God and the feeling of "worship" you give to another God and why, having two Gods, does not make this a form of polytheism?

I can only describe it as the different love you have for a brother than you have for your father.

We love God and his Christ but we see Jesus like our brother, standing with us giving God worship, honor and praise....not us standing giving two gods honor, reverence and praise. He is not just our brother, but our mentor, teacher, and friend. When Jesus prayed "Our Father" he was showing us that he was standing with us in addressing a Father that we have in common.

Perhaps, but your answer is insufficient to clarify the difference inside j. Witness theology.

Can you explain how j. Witnesses interpret their feeling of HONOR for their God#2 (jesus) and how that differs from their WORSHIP of their God #1 (the father).

Sometimes I wonder if anyone can give you "sufficient" answers.....I can only give you the answers I have.

Also, if there are two Gods in jehovah's witness theology, then how is this claim that there are multiple Gods not polytheism?

Please read my responses again....they will be the same if I repeat them 100 times. WE DO NOT HAVE TWO GODS. WE HAVE ONE GOD JEHOVAH....AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, just as the apostles did.

It is Christendom's hangup with the word "theos" that is the problem...take it up with them perhaps....? :shrug:
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It was a vision.....Jesus, Moses and Elijah were representing the key parts of the Kingdom’s foundation....the basis of its operation were its King (Jesus) the Law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah). The transfiguration was in response to Jesus’ promise that some standing there would not taste death until they saw him coming in his Kingdom. Peter James and John had that privilege.....but Jesus told them not to mention the “vision” until after his resurrection. (Matthew 17:9)
If you saw someone’s wedding video would you say you saw them in their wedding?
 
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Samael_Khan

Goosebender
You want to give others a chance to evaluate beliefs, here's an idea:
Set up a debate with the Latter-Day-Saints under the "Same Faith Debate" forum or in the "Team Debate" sub-form under "One-on-One" Debates, and show all the rest of us how debates are properly done.

That's what I thought; you can't identify the insults.

Is what how I speak? You haven't identified precisely what it was that failed to meet your expectations. And would that you only questioned my beliefs, I'd have ignored you. But you began your little lecture to me with:
and


I suspected as much, but felt moved to try to shed some light somewhere for you.

Of course you wouldn't be. What surprises me is that you're interested in hearing mine.

Because I don't expect any of them to make any difference in your beliefs.

You misinterpret my reluctance to waste my time giving my reasons when I'm as confident that they will not change your beliefs as I am of the beliefs that I am confident in. You really need to work on your interpreting skills.

Was I just insulted by being compared to the devil? :confused::eek:o_O
Does that qualify as slander?

[Not referring to you Terry]
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Was I just insulted by being compared to the devil? :confused::eek:o_O
Does that qualify as slander?

[Not referring to you Terry]
Depends...do you consider the devil to be evil or not? Do you consider 'evil' to even be a bad thing?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe I'm not following the OP's question. The short and simple answer was that Jesus had only one body. Since Genesis 2:7 says (with respect to Adam as the first man), "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul," it appears that there was a two-step process. The physical body was created and then it was given life. The Greek word "pneuma" refers to the breath of life, the spirit, or the life force which, when infused into a body results in a "living soul." When the spirit leaves the body at death (Jesus acknowledged that He was commending His spirit into His Father's hands), the body dies. It is an empty shell, so to speak, an entity without awareness or consciousness that was laid in a borrowed tomb. When the spirit re-enters it, it once again becomes a "living soul." Mormons believe that this new soul is sustained entirely by the spirit which gives it life. It is no longer mortal in the sense that it a mortal relies on a beating heart circulating blood through the body, but on the spirit which will never again leave it. It is now a resurrected being. I'm not sure how this could possibly imply the existence of two bodies. Perhaps @Harel13 could explain where he got this idea from.
Hello @Katzpur. My question was about how I understood certain JW teachings, which some of our local JWs kindly spent some time to correct.
I originally understood that Jesus' spirit was inserted into a mortal body and that upon death, his spirit, which was originally immortal, went back to heaven. However, JWs also state that god resurrected Jesus' physical body - so it seemed to me that Jesus had both a physical, resurrected one and a spiritual one.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Hello @Katzpur. My question was about how I understood certain JW teachings, which some of our local JWs kindly spent some time to correct.
I originally understood that Jesus' spirit was inserted into a mortal body and that upon death, his spirit, which was originally immortal, went back to heaven. However, JWs also state that god resurrected Jesus' physical body - so it seemed to me that Jesus had both a physical, resurrected one and a spiritual one.

Please give a quote or reference to where JWs state that Jesus' physical body was resurrected. (Hint JWs don't teach that the Bible doesn't either).
 
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