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Featured Some Qs about the JW view of Jesus and angels

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Harel13, May 20, 2020.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I would agree that they are real in the sense that they have an active effect on the person those concepts affect. If that is what you meant?
     
  2. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Also affecting cultures.
     
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  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    True.
     
  4. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    I'll take credit as the secret helper, perhaps not dissimilar to people who say Jesus is their secret helper.
     
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  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    This was unexpected. I thought it was a mole.
     
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  6. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Did you get your questions answered?
    I ask because, I'm still unclear about "the science" involved in Jesus' movement from being the Archangel Michael in heaven to being the "fully human" Jesus on earth before his death to being the flesh-and-blood spirit Jesus on earth after his death but before his ascension to being the exalted Michael-Jesus in heaven?
    So, if you got your questions answered and I'm still confused, I'm concerned that I may well be in early-to-middle stage senile dementia and need a thorough mental health check-up.
    Note: I'm not asking you to try to straighten me out; just asking if you got your questions answered to your satisfaction.
     
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  7. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure I did.
     
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  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Harel13 hello
    Here are the Bible's answers to your questions.

    1. If Jesus is an angel and is also defined as a 'god' - does that mean that all angels are 'gods'?
    Is there any room to say that various pagan gods are also powerful beings in this sense (bad, good, whatever)?


    Jesus - or more specifically - the word (Michael) is a son of God.
    Like his brothers - the heavenly angles, who are also sons of God, Jesus is a godlike one.
    Hence, Michael and the angelic host are gods. This would include angels who turn bad.
    An angel's attitude in no way makes "him" not godlike - that is, a powerful spirit being.
    Pagan gods are no gods at all. They are called gods by idol worshippers.

    From this I gathered that: In order to reach heaven, a spirit needs a spirit body. To remain on earth, a spirit needs a physical body.

    This a misunderstanding of what is being said.
    What lives on earth, is fleshly, or physical. It is not a spirit living on earth, but a physical body, which is given spirit, of life force. In other words, the spirit is the force of life, it sustains the life, or soul. When that life ends, the spirit is no longer useful to the body, and goes out. It then "returns to God", in that God can give this life-sustaining spirit again... if he wishes.
    Beings in heaven have spirit bodies. I am assuming this is what you are saying.

    If pre-mortal Jesus was an angel, i.e. a spiritual being in heaven that was injected into a human body, that means, presumably (correct me if I'm wrong), that when he died, his spirit should have returned to heaven automatically as the archangel Michael while his body stayed behind. Yet JW teachings are that god didn't leave Jesus' body to rot, so he resurrected him.

    The life of the word - Michael - is what was planted in Mary (Side point : A good scripture to show that life begins at conception, from God's viewpoint).
    So the spirit body, the word had in heaven ended, and he would now have a physical body on earth.
    Think of the resurrection of those who would instantly receive a spirit body to receive their heavenly body. Paul said, they do not "sleep in death". They transfer is instant - instant sleep. Instant wake.
    This is the same with the word - instant sleep. However, he did not wake until he became a fetus... Well at least partially awake. You know what I mean. Nine month after, he was fully awake.

    Which means: a. that a heavenly spirit (Jesus/Michael) that is meant to dwell in heaven and is defined by that fact that it/he already has a spirit-body, received a renewed physical body. b. that a pre-mortal spirit-being didn't, in fact, return automatically to heaven post-mortal-life, and needed further divine assistance.

    On earth, Jesus is fully human - having a completely physical body. He is not a spirit in a body, as I explained earlier.
    So when Jesus died, he was not a spirit, but as the scriptures say, he was raised up (resurrected) as a spirit - that is, he was given a spirit body, when his life was restored... on earth.
    Like his powerful brothers - the angelic beings, he was able to appear in human bodies, and disappear.
    He returned to heaven with his new spirit body - immortal, and greater than formally.

    2. If Jesus went to heaven as a spirit-being (that same being that had already existed in heaven previously), why would he need his physical body?
    If he didn't have his physical body, does that mean his body did, in fact, rot into the earth?
    If he did have his physical body, does that mean he had two bodies simultaneously? How does that work exactly? Does he exist in two places at the same time?


    I hope I clearly addressed these questions above, but to answer.
    The spirit being that returned to heaven, was the word, with a new body. It is an immortal body. Contrary to popular opinion, the angels were not created immortal. They do not need to eat, or breath oxygen, as humans do, to live, but they can die, and those wicked ones will. However, Jesus in his new spirit body, cannot die. Neither will those who receive heavily bodies, after they prove faithful to the end.

    Jesus did have a physical body when he died, but it did not rot in the earth, as the scriptures prophesied.
    What happened to his body? Satan wanted to know the same thing about Moses' body. However, he will never know, and God saw no reason to reveal knowledge he has regarding Jesus' body.
    After Jesus was resurrected - according to scripture, he was spirit. He did not have a physical body.

    JW do not teach that Jesus had a physical body at resurrection, so you might have to ask those who teach such, that question. I think Mormons do, but I think they believe that physical body is spiritual also. However, I am not sure, and speak under correction. Perhaps @Katzpur can help us with that question.

    3. If pre-mortal Jesus was a being who lived well enough in heaven, then was injected into human form, then I would surmise that upon the death of the body, that same pre-mortal being (who is now post mortal) would simply automatically go to heaven (as I wrote above). Why then, the need for godly intervention?

    I hope you understood what I explained above. Jesus could not resurrect himself. He was dead. God is the source of life.
    However, he has given resurrected Jesus life within himself, so that Jesus can give life.

    Sorry, I didn't insert scriptures. I am assuming you know what the Bible says. However, if anything puzzles you, please feel free to ask.
     
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  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Why go to an ex anything_________________
    Would you have asked the Pharisees about Jesus _______
    Why Not go directly to the ' horse's mouth' , so to speak__________
    If you want to know more about the Jewish faith go to a Rabbi.
    If you want to know more about the Catholic faith go to a priest.
    So, to know more about Jehovah's Witnesses go directly to www.jw.org
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Resurrected Jesus has the voice of the Archangel according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16
    The exalted Michael/Jesus was exalted ' after ' he appeared in the presence of his God in heaven as per Hebrews 9:24.
    So, Jesus was Not restored to pre-human heavenly spirit life until after his God resurrected the dead Jesus out of the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
    I notice a balance between Adam and Jesus at Romans 5:19,15,17
    This is because unlike other descendants of Adam and Eve, Jesus was conceived by the result of God's spirit - Psalms 104:30
    This means a fleshly Jesus did Not inherit any vulnerability toward sin's temptations. That is how Adam started out.
    Adam's free-will choices made him personally responsible for his failure to keep God's law.
    So, fleshly sinless Jesus of his own volition chose to remain loyal and faithful to his God despite great pressures.
    ( Adam's pressure, so to speak, came from Eve )
    In order to balance the Scales of Justice an equal to a sinless Adam would be needed.
    In other words, since we are all born ' after ' father Adam sinned is why we can't stop sinning.
    Sin = death. We can't stop sinning so we die. We can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can resurrect us.
    Faithful-to-death Jesus can and will resurrect us.
    This is because fleshly Jesus corresponded to fleshly Adam who was created with human perfection.
     
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  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find God has a 'memory' according to Malachi 3:16. God has a ' Book of Remembrance ' for the dead.
    Just as Jesus' dead friend heard Jesus' voice and came back to his life - John chapter 11 - so will the rest of the resurrected dead.
    This includes going as far back as faithful Abel ( Hebrews 11:4 ). Abel's example is still alive with us today and Abel will return as Abel.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In Jehovah's view one's spirit is a neuter ' it ' according Ecclesiastes 12:7. So yes, one's body with its spirit make up the person.
     
  13. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Skim the next few posts and you'll that that question was addressed.
     
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  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Thank you, @nPeace, for alerting me to this post and for allowing me to answer this question according to the LDS understanding of the scriptures. I know we disagree on this subject, so I appreciate your invitation that both of us explain our positions.

    We Latter-day Saints believe that when Jesus was resurrected from the dead, His spirit, which He had commended into His Father's hands moments before He died, returned to His body to give it new life. The Bible teaches us that when He appeared to His Apostles for the first time after His resurrection, they were afraid because they thought they'd seen a spirit. He was quick to point out to them that this was not the case. He said to them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." He could not conceivably made it more clear -- He had been physically resurrected! How, this does not mean that His body was identical to the body He'd had as a mortal being. Unlike that body, His new body was sustained solely by His spirit. That spirit had returned to His body, never to leave it again. He was immortal and would no longer be subject to disease, injury, aging or death. He would live forever as an immortal being, to reign from Heaven at His Father's side. He continued to remain among His disciples for another 40 days before finally ascending to Heaven. During this period of time, He did the same kinds of things a person with a corporeal body could do -- such as eating and drinking. When He was seen ascending into Heaven, it was with the very same body He had from the moment His spirit re-entered it. It was a corporeal body, a body one could actually touch and feel. When He returns to earth someday, it will be with this same body. Likewise, each of us will be resurrected and take upon ourselves a physical but immortal, incorruptible body.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You are most welcomed Katzpur, I appreciate hearing from those who would know, what they teach on this.

    Thanks.
    I am not clear on the view though.
    The question @Harel13 wanted to know was... If he did have his physical body, does that mean he had two bodies simultaneously?
    What do LDS believe Jesus spirit (that he gave up, and returned to him) is? So that I can understand.
     
  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to answer, though I think previous posters have pretty much answered my questions. Perhaps I should edit that into the OP.
    Nope, on this thread I'm only interested in the JW view, hence the title.
     
  17. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't answer the question, but thanks for trying.
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh okay. I don't mind at all.
    I think there are forums where you can ask questions of specific religions (speaking under correction). That way, we can address your questions specifically, and you would avoid hearing personal opinions, or views from people who may be somewhat "in the dark". Am I right @Deeje?
     
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  19. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, DIRs. I know. I thought about that, but decided to put this here instead, never mind why.
     
  20. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    For the same reason why whistleblowers exist

    Whistleblower - Wikipedia

    It is actually highly illogical to just view one side of an argument only. One goes to exes to learn about what the group doesn't want to inform others about.

    Obviously, there has to be evidence on the exes part.

    Logic 101

    By your reasoning, witnesses shouldn't get information from a JW about a religion if they were former members of that religion.
     
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