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Some problems i found with adam and the afterlife

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.
 
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Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.

Regardless of the contradictions of The Bible, no souls in body after death. But, honestly I find it strange calling it a "soul" anyway, for all the notions related to it -- like you can sell it, damn it, and so on. It's all nonsense... But, that's just based on my experience not my book reading. (I find no interest in many of these books because they're just SO so wrong about the whole thing.) In many ways, the realities of the spiritual realm are no different than the physical -- nothing is lost, or gained. Your body is just a vehicle for the unseen spirit driving it. Why would it be important to that spirit to sit there waiting to be resurrected when it, itself, in incapable of death? It doesn't even make sense from a logical view of the subject.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.

Why not sign up for a Bible study with us Frank? You can do that online. The only way to reconcile your problems is to have a systematic, topic by topic study of the Bible, rather than jumping all over the place and confusing yourself.

Its not the words you are confusing in those verses, but the context in which they are used that is causing the problem.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.
The original meaning of soul just meant moving/ life force. Nothing at all like some kind of floaties spirit thing.

etymology of `soul' | ARAS
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.
Perhaps studying the meaning of soul from Biblical insight might clear the confusion.
Soul refers to life, or person.

I think one can see the relation.
Consider the statements -
This is a person. This is a life.
Someone lost their life. The person died.
His life left him. He expired.


The spirit keeps the person alive. The spirit sustains life.
It seems simple to me, but I suppose you will have to research the topic until you understand it.
Just remember your own experiences, and realize that there are things that can hinder our understanding. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.
There is a progressive development of notions of the soul and the afterlife in the era of the Old Testament. Originally, the Hebrews and Israelites had no real concept of an afterlife; there was the grave, where you went to rest with your fathers, and you lived on through your children and your descendants. However, over the centuries from Samuel, Saul and King David onwards, we do see several developments take place: Sheol was perceived more as a realm where the dead lived on as shades. The witch of Endor calling up Samuel's soul from Sheol is one notable example, and the Psalms and the Prophets are littered with references to what Sheol is like. As Sheol developed, so did the idea of the soul as a part of us that is separate from the body and lives on after the body dies. Hence Jesus' many statements in the Gospel relating to the afterlife, such as the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and only God being able to destroy souls, whereas men just kill the body. After all, if the soul is just the life force, if you kill a man, you also destroy his soul--AKA his life force.

So, yes, the soul is our life force--but it is also more than that, as we see in the development of thought from early Old Testament, to late Old Testament, to New Testament.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
There is a progressive development of notions of the soul and the afterlife in the era of the Old Testament. Originally, the Hebrews and Israelites had no real concept of an afterlife; there was the grave, where you went to rest with your fathers, and you lived on through your children and your descendants. However, over the centuries from Samuel, Saul and King David onwards, we do see several developments take place: Sheol was perceived more as a realm where the dead lived on as shades. The witch of Endor calling up Samuel's soul from Sheol is one notable example, and the Psalms and the Prophets are littered with references to what Sheol is like. As Sheol developed, so did the idea of the soul as a part of us that is separate from the body and lives on after the body dies. Hence Jesus' many statements in the Gospel relating to the afterlife, such as the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and only God being able to destroy souls, whereas men just kill the body. After all, if the soul is just the life force, if you kill a man, you also destroy his soul--AKA his life force.

So, yes, the soul is our life force--but it is also more than that, as we see in the development of thought from early Old Testament, to late Old Testament, to New Testament.
Isn't the spirit the life-force?
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.

Perhaps you sift to finely? Remember that the Bible, especially the OT was passed around the campfire for thousands of years before the stories were written down.

I am unfamiliar with JW theology, and that I have studied ... Nah, not going there. If you are wanting to sell their ideas, this conversation is over.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Etymology and common usages of the words.
I use that too, but since the original are from the scriptures, I believe the Bible's usage of these words must be considered.. Yet ours differ.

Soul; person
Hebrew - nephesh
Greek - psykhe / psuché

Spirit; breath
Hebrew - ruach
Greek - pneuma

Can I see your definitions?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Etymology and common usages of the words.

I use that too, but since the original are from the scriptures, I believe the Bible's usage of these words must be considered.. Yet ours differ.
Soul; person Hebrew - nephesh Greek - psykhe / psuché

Spirit; breath Hebrew - ruach Greek - pneuma Can I see your definitions?

It seems to me that Shiranui117 is describing what has become typical modern usage whereas nPeace is describing discrete (and correct) dictionary definitions.
The pattern that I see most often in early Judeo-Christian literature is that the spirit/pneuma seems to refer to the spirit that exists independent of the body. That is, the intelligence and spirit of life that was placed within the body and which, upon death, leaves the lifeless body in early Judeo-Christian theology. Whereas the "soul" seems to have been used most often to indicate the spirit/body united and "living".

For example, in Discourse on Abbaton (387 a.d.) the spirit is synonymous with the english word "breath" (πνευμα/pneuma) and it is placed in the body of Adam (which was created separately and lay lifeless for a time). " And He put breath (pneuma/spirit) into him in this way : “He (God) breathed into his (Adams) nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, “Live! Live! Live! According to the type of My Divinity.” And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God."

" And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, “My Lord and my God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.”
(Discourse on Abbaton)

In the early Christian model, the spirit existed independently from the body and it is the placing of the spirit into the body that creates a living soul. While the later Christian movement adopted varying different and competing theories, I do not think any of the various later theories have any historical or logical/rational advantage over the early Judeo-Christian worldviews.

Clear.
εινετζω
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.

Hi Frank;

When Genesis 2:7 says : "And God shaped man (και επλασεν ο θεοσ τον ανθρωπον) taking dust from the earth." I believe that the text is speaking from the early Christian context regarding the forming of adams' body (i.e. the thing that was made from dust).

And in verse two, when God "breathed into his face [the] breath of life", (ενεφυσησεν το προσωπον αυτου πνοην ζωησ) this describes the placing of a spirit into the body God had just formed. (you'll notice the word for spirit is "pneuma")

And the next phrase "and man became a living soul" (και εγενετο ο ανθρωποσ εισ ψυχην ζωσαν) You'll notice the word for soul is "fuxe")

The early model in early Judeo-Christian texts describes the model of a spirit (which exists independently of the body); a body (which is lifeless and useless without an animating intelligent spirit to give it life character and intelligence, movement, etc) and a soul is the resulting being that has life in this mortal stage of existence.

Good luck coming up with your own understanding of these principles.

Clear
τωτζνεω
 
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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Hi Frank;

When Genesis 2:7 says : "And God shaped man (και επλασεν ο θεοσ τον ανθρωπον) taking dust from the earth." I believe that the text is speaking from the early Christian context regarding the forming of adams' body (i.e. the thing that was made from dust).

And in verse two, when God "breathed into his face [the] breath of life", (ενεφυσησεν το προσωπον αυτου πνοην ζωησ) this describes the placing of a spirit into the body God had just formed. (you'll notice the word for spirit is "pneuma")

And the next phrase "and man became a living soul" (και εγενετο ο ανθρωποσ εισ ψυχην ζωσαν) You'll notice the word for soul is "fuxe")

The early model in early Judeo-Christian texts describes the model of a spirit (which exists independently of the body); a body (which is lifeless and useless without an animating intelligent spirit to give it life (character and intelligence, movement, etc) and a soul is the resulting being that has life in this mortal stage of existence.

Good luck coming up with your own understanding of these principles.

Clear
τωτζνεω

So, your name in Greek translates to Soot. You say you are a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ". Does that mean you are 'Greek Orthodox?"
 

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul (soul)". Genesis 2:7. It is not said that man became spirit and soul; but rather, that God inbreathed spirit, and man became a living soul.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)



If you look at Genesis 2:7 adam does not have a soul.But in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 man DOES have a soul.

"The Word of God ... piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:12)

I read Hebrews 4:12. And that made it more confusing.:confused:

I found all of this at this website: The Errors of Soul Sleep

I find myself going back and forth on the idea if man has a soul that leaves the body at death.So this didn't help matters.Because i like the jw idea of the soul more.

In Genesis 2:7 it says man became a living soul.Not that he was given a soul.And in (1 Thessalonians 5:23).It says we are made up of spirit soul and body.Also in (Hebrews 4:12) it says we are soul and spirit.And we are made of joints and marrow.Which I think is referencing to (1 Thessalonians 5:23).In regards to a person's body.Also in 1 Kings 17:20-22 it says Elijah brought a boy back to life.He prayed for his soul to come back to him.And it did.But in Genesis 2:7 it says we don't have a soul.Also in Hebrews 4:12.When it talks about us having a soul.Is it just talking about our being?Like in Genesis 2:7?:confused:In Luke 1:46-47.Is it talking about the same thing in Hebrews 4:12?:confused:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In Genesis 2:7 it says man became a living soul.Not that he was given a soul.

Exactly.....a body + breath (spirit) = a soul. A soul is mortal and needs breath in order to stay alive.....it also requires food and water, otherwise it dies. Sin is responsible for death among humans. (Ezekiel 18:4)

And in (1 Thessalonians 5:23).It says we are made up of spirit soul and body.

"May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is speaking about the 'spirit, soul and body' of the Christian brotherhood. Another meaning of the word "soul" is "life". When God's Law stated that there should be "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, soul [nephesh] for a soul [nephesh]"....it was talking about a life being given for a life taken.

This is how the Jewish Tanach renders it...
"You shall not have pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

Also in (Hebrews 4:12) it says we are soul and spirit.And we are made of joints and marrow.Which I think is referencing to (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart."

God’s Word does not stop at just a surface view of human actions but it penetrates beneath the surface to discern motives and attitudes, to divide between fleshly desires and mental dispositions. That these two forces exist within an individual Paul shows: “With my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.” (Rom. 7:25) With his mind Paul served God’s law, but with his flesh he served the law of sin. So the life one lives as a human soul of flesh and blood may be different from what is one’s mental attitude or spirit.

Also in 1 Kings 17:20-22 it says Elijah brought a boy back to life.He prayed for his soul to come back to him.And it did.

"Soul" also means "life"...so the boy's life was returned to him.

But in Genesis 2:7 it says we don't have a soul. Also in Hebrews 4:12.When it talks about us having a soul. Is it just talking about our being? Like in Genesis 2:7?

The soul is the living, breathing creature, whether man or animal. We don't have a soul that inhabits our body and can leave it when we die. What leaves our body is our spirit which in Greek is "pneuma". In English we have pneumatic tires and we suffer with pneumonia....it has to do with air and breath.

Psalm 146:4 says...
"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish."


This is the breath of life that goes out of the body when we breathe our last. If you have ever been with someone who has died, then you know that the breath exits the lungs when they stop working. The spirit goes out much like a light "goes out". It doesn't leave the room but is extinguished.

In Luke 1:46-47.Is it talking about the same thing in Hebrews 4:12?:confused:

Mary's expression here is one of gratefully acknowledging God's choosing of her as the mother of the Messiah.
"And Mary said: “My soul magnifies Jehovah, 47 and my spirit cannot keep from being overjoyed at God my Savior".

Mary's deepest inner feelings and her spirit soared at Gabriel's announcement.

The Hebrew "ruʹach" and the Greek "pneuʹma" are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s holy spirit.

Context determines the correct rendering.
 
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