solving the Puzzle: Jerusalem under feet of Genetiles

[InvestigateTruth]

There are two references in the Bible, regarding fulfillment of the period which Jerusalem or Holy Place would be Trodden under feet.

One of them is in Daniel 8:13-14:

"Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled--the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD's people?"

He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."


So according to this prophecy, Jerusalem or Holy place would continue to be Trodden under feet by the end of a 2300 days. Since each prophetic year in bible is 1 year, that is 2300 years.


The other Prophecy is found in Revelation:

"....They will trample on the holy city for 42 months”. Revelation 11:1-2


We can see historically, there is a match for the 42 months prophecy, which its fulfillment occured in1844:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/comparing-biblical-religious-prophecies-with-history.190330/

Therefore the end of 2300 years would also occur in 1844.

Now if we go back 2300 years from 1844, we can find the beginning of the 2300 years; it will go back upto year 457 BC.

• In year 457 BC, Artaxerxes I decrees that the city government ofJerusalem be re-established.[1]. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_BC

So, this way, the beginning of the 2300 years period is 457 BC.

This was one part of the puzzle.

The other side of the Puzzle is in Daniel 9:25


"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.



According to Daniel 9:24-24, there will be 70 x 7 (490 days)from the time of rebuilt, and comming of the Messiah.

490 days, each prophetic day is a year = 490 years. If we count 490 years from 457 bc, it comes to 33 AD, which is when Christ had appeared and crucified.

 

[Tumah]

There are two references in the Bible, regarding fulfillment of the period which Jerusalem or Holy Place would be Trodden under feet.

One of them is in Daniel 8:13-14:

"Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled--the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD's people?"

He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

Who in the word did you take this translation from???

"And I heard one [inherently] holy one speaking, and a[n inherently] holy one said to the anonymous one that was talking, "until when [will] the vision [about] the daily [offering] and the silent sin; allowing the [made] holy and the host to be trampled?
And he said to me, 'until evening [and] morning: 2300; and the [made] holy will be made righteous (נצדק from the root צדק - righteous)."

No where are the word's the "LORD's people". Nor is the word "reconsecrated" or any similar word found in this verse. And I think your translation approached the word שמם backwards. In context where it means destruction, its only through the implication of utter silence. The same as when it means astonishment: silence because you have no words. פשע is a type of sin, so פשע שמם is a silent sin.

So according to this prophecy, Jerusalem or Holy place would continue to be Trodden under feet by the end of a 2300 days. Since each prophetic year in bible is 1 year, that is 2300 years.

Here's my shot:
"A thousand years - in your eyes is like the day of yesterday which passed..."

So now you prove that a prophetic day is like a year.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who in the word did you take this translation from???

"And I heard one [inherently] holy one speaking, and a[n inherently] holy one said to the anonymous one that was talking, "until when [will] the vision [about] the daily [offering] and the silent sin; allowing the [made] holy and the host to be trampled?
And he said to me, 'until evening [and] morning: 2300; and the [made] holy will be made righteous (נצדק from the root צדק - righteous)."

No where are the word's the "LORD's people". Nor is the word "reconsecrated" or any similar word found in this verse. And I think your translation approached the word שמם backwards. In context where it means destruction, its only through the implication of utter silence. The same as when it means astonishment: silence because you have no words. פשע is a type of sin, so פשע שמם is a silent sin.


Here's my shot:
"A thousand years - in your eyes is like the day of yesterday which passed..."

So now you prove that a prophetic day is like a year.

Yes, in the Bible, prophetic Day, can be one year or 1000 years.

The one year is based on Ezekiel 4:6, and Numbers 14:34:

"....I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year."


In my view, each has their own application.

Here I will present, 2 of the applications of the Day of God is 1000 years.

Application one:

In the Bahai View, the 6 days of Genesis, are figurative, and prophetic.
This belief also existed among Jews as well, that, the 6 days (each day 1000 years) is 6000 years, and at the expiration of 6000 years, the world ends, and a new world comes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Ages_of_the_World


According to Bahai writings this prophecy was fulfilled in year 1844. In that same year, the Bab announced that a new human Era started.

Many Bible scholars, calculate that, 6000 years from days of Adam had ended some time in 19th Century.
For example this site, calculates that Adam was born 4156 BC:
http://www.adamictimeline.com/adamic10b.html

So, if we count from 4156 BC, the 6000 years was expired in 1844.


So, in Bahai View, human has lived much longer before Adam, but, there was a human cycle that begin with Adam, who was the first prophet in Adamic Cycle, and Muhammad was the Last Peophet in Adamic cycle. Once the Bab appeared in 1844, He closed the adamic cycle and anounced a new cycle begun.

Historically most people agree that since 19th century we live in a new human era, because the technology, science, and social laws, and everything else has changed significantly comparing to previous ages.


Application 2


This prophecy was done in Islamic sources, such as Quran and Hadithes, that God provides the guidence in Islam, and then the end comes in 1 day. In Quran also, 1 day is 1000 years. At the end of Islam, Mahdi was promised to come.

According to shia sources, the guidence in Islam continued till the 11th Imam who died in year 260 AH. After a 1000 years, the Promosed one was to appear.
The Bab declared exactly in year 1260 AH, that He has a new covenant. Year 1260 AH is year 1844.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

From Wikipidia


There is a kabbalistic tradition[4] that maintains that the seven days of creation in Genesis 1 correspond to seven millennia of the existence of natural creation. The tradition teaches that the seventh day of the week, Shabbat or the day of rest, corresponds to the seventh millennium (Hebrew years 6000 - 7000), the age of universal 'rest' - the Messianic Era.

The Talmud comments:

R. Katina said, “Six thousand years the world will exist and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate (haruv), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11)... R. Katina also taught, “Just as the seventh year is theShmita year, so too does the world have one thousand years out of seven that are fallow (mushmat), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11); and further it is written, ‘A psalm and song for the Shabbat day’ (Ps. 92:1) – meaning the day that is altogether Shabbat – and also it is said, ‘For a thousand years in Thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past’ (Ps.90:4) (Sanhedrin 97a).”
The Midrash comments:

"Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat and rest for life everlasting".[5]

The Zohar explains:

"The redemption of Israel will come about through the mystic force of the letter “Vav” [which has the numerical value of six], namely, in the sixth millennium.... Happy are those who will be left alive at the end of the sixth millennium to enter theShabbat, which is the seventh millennium; for that is a day set apart for the Holy One on which to effect the union of new souls with old souls in the world (Zohar, Vayera 119a)."
Elaborating on this theme are numerous early and late Jewish scholars, including the Ramban,[6] Isaac Abrabanel,[7] Abraham Ibn Ezra,[8] Rabbeinu Bachya,[9]the Vilna Gaon,[10] the Lubavitcher Rebbe,[11] theRamchal,[12] Aryeh Kaplan,[13] and Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis.[14]

 

[Tumah]

Yes, in the Bible, prophetic Day, can be one year or 1000 years.

The one year is based on Ezekiel 4:6, and Numbers 14:34:

"....I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year."

That kind of disproves your view doesn't it. If the prophet has to spell out that in that case a year will be given for every day, that means in other cases its not true. Otherwise it wouldn't need to be spelled out in two separate cases as it would be a generally understood principle.
As is the principle 1 day = 1000 years that is mentioned as a principle.

In my view, each has their own application.

Here I will present, 2 of the applications of the Day of God is 1000 years.

Application one:

In the Bahai View, the 6 days of Genesis, are figurative, and prophetic.
This belief also existed among Jews as well, that, the 6 days (each day 1000 years) is 6000 years, and at the expiration of 6000 years, the world ends, and a new world comes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Ages_of_the_World

This has nothing to do with "prophetic years".

According to Bahai writings this prophecy was fulfilled in year 1844. In that same year, the Bab announced that a new human Era started.

Many Bible scholars, calculate that, 6000 years from days of Adam had ended some time in 19th Century.
For example this site, calculates that Adam was born 4156 BC:
http://www.adamictimeline.com/adamic10b.html

So, if we count from 4156 BC, the 6000 years was expired in 1844.


So, in Bahai View, human has lived much longer before Adam, but, there was a human cycle that begin with Adam, who was the first prophet in Adamic Cycle, and Muhammad was the Last Peophet in Adamic cycle. Once the Bab appeared in 1844, He closed the adamic cycle and anounced a new cycle begun.

Historically most people agree that since 19th century we live in a new human era, because the technology, science, and social laws, and everything else has changed significantly comparing to previous ages.


Application 2


This prophecy was done in Islamic sources, such as Quran and Hadithes, that God provides the guidence in Islam, and then the end comes in 1 day. In Quran also, 1 day is 1000 years. At the end of Islam, Mahdi was promised to come.

According to shia sources, the guidence in Islam continued till the 11th Imam who died in year 260 AH. After a 1000 years, the Promosed one was to appear.
The Bab declared exactly in year 1260 AH, that He has a new covenant. Year 1260 AH is year 1844.

You should explain then that the idea is based on a Baha'i or Christian or Islamic principle rather than something that is self-evident.

 

[Tumah]

From Wikipidia


There is a kabbalistic tradition[4] that maintains that the seven days of creation in Genesis 1 correspond to seven millennia of the existence of natural creation. The tradition teaches that the seventh day of the week, Shabbat or the day of rest, corresponds to the seventh millennium (Hebrew years 6000 - 7000), the age of universal 'rest' - the Messianic Era.

The Talmud comments:

R. Katina said, “Six thousand years the world will exist and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate (haruv), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11)... R. Katina also taught, “Just as the seventh year is theShmita year, so too does the world have one thousand years out of seven that are fallow (mushmat), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11); and further it is written, ‘A psalm and song for the Shabbat day’ (Ps. 92:1) – meaning the day that is altogether Shabbat – and also it is said, ‘For a thousand years in Thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past’ (Ps.90:4) (Sanhedrin 97a).”
The Midrash comments:

"Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat and rest for life everlasting".[5]

The Zohar explains:

"The redemption of Israel will come about through the mystic force of the letter “Vav” [which has the numerical value of six], namely, in the sixth millennium.... Happy are those who will be left alive at the end of the sixth millennium to enter theShabbat, which is the seventh millennium; for that is a day set apart for the Holy One on which to effect the union of new souls with old souls in the world (Zohar, Vayera 119a)."
Elaborating on this theme are numerous early and late Jewish scholars, including the Ramban,[6] Isaac Abrabanel,[7] Abraham Ibn Ezra,[8] Rabbeinu Bachya,[9]the Vilna Gaon,[10] the Lubavitcher Rebbe,[11] theRamchal,[12] Aryeh Kaplan,[13] and Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis.[14]

This has nothing to do with some "prophetic day is a year". It has to do with certain applications of numbers that work on both a specific and general scale. It has nothing to do with what you're talking about here and is not applicable to this.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The one year is based on Ezekiel 4:6, and Numbers 14:34:

"....I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year."

Did you ever, EVER, consider reading Num.14:34 in context instead of distorting it to suit your presuppositions?

From The JPS Commentary: NUMBERS

34:14 You shall bear your punishment for forty years, corresponding to the number of days -- forty days -- that you scouted the land: a year for each day.

forty days ... a year for each day Another instance of measure for measure. The same scale is adopted by Ezekiel whose forty days lying on his side represent forty years of Judah's sin (Ezek. 4:6). Forty years will allow a fourth generation to be born in the wilderness, thereby fulfilling God's attribute of punishing to the fourth generation. Thus God punishes the succeeding generation only as long as the evildoers live.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, you guys have a different view regarding these prophecies and interpretations.

I put these in comparative religion section, so, anyone can express their view.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I put these in comparative religion section, so, anyone can express their view.

Not all views are created equal. Those that simply dispense with denotation and context are worthless.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not all views are created equal. Those that simply dispense with denotation and context are worthless.

You can write this ^ as your signature too.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What is interesting to me is, what I found today in Zohar:

From Wikipidia:


The Zohar explains:

"The redemption of Israel will come about through the mystic force of the letter “Vav” [which has the numerical value of six], namely, in the sixth millennium.... Happy are those who will be left alive at the end of the sixth millennium to enter theShabbat, which is the seventh millennium; for that is a day set apart for the Holy One on which to effect the union of new souls with old souls in the world (Zohar, Vayera 119a)."




What is interesting that, redemption of Israel actually happend in culmination of 6000 years as prophecied. The Jews as prophecied, returned to Israel. The Process beging in 1844, when 1260 years has passed from Islamization of Jerusalem.






From Bahai Sources:


172. THE “SIX” RAISED UP BY VIRTUE OF THIS “UPRIGHT ALIF” # 157


In his writings, Shaykh Aḥmad-i-Ahsá’í placed great emphasis on the Arabic letter “Váv”. In The Dawn-Breakers, Nabíl states that this letter “symbolized for the Báb the advent of a new cycle of Divine Revelation, and has since been alluded to by Bahá’u’lláh in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas in such passages as ‘the mystery of the Great Reversal’ and ‘the Sign of the Sovereign’”.

The name for the letter “Váv” consists of three letters: Váv, Alif, Váv. According to the abjad reckoning, the numerical value of each of these letters is 6, 1 and 6 respectively. Shoghi Effendi in a letter written on his behalf to one of the believers in the East provides an interpretation of this verse of the Aqdas. He states that the “Upright Alif” refers to the advent of the Báb. The first letter with its value of six, which comes before the Alif, is a symbol of earlier Dispensations and Manifestations which predate the Báb, while the third letter, which also has a numerical value of six, stands for Bahá’u’lláh’s supreme Revelation which was made manifest after the Alif.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-189.html

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What is interesting to me is, what I found today in Zohar:

From Wikipidia:

The Zohar explains: ...

Isn't cherry-picking fun?!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I see these veses, as yet another allusion to time of Day of Reusurrection:

"After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence" Hosea 6:2


When these Jewish Prophets were saying these Prophecies, it was on the 4th Day after Adam 4000 years). According to this verse day of Resurrection will come after 2 days, each day of God is 1000 years, which means at the end of 6000 years, proving again the same concept.

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> actually
some of it writtings are speakin about spiritual things
meaning if there is no spiritual understanding inside you then all your observation shall be null and void from the beginning

notice the word holy one there in the scripture that you've posted
if anyone will interpret it as a literal physical material being then all is lost
as the prophesy came from daniel in the form of a spiritual vision during that time
:read:
Daniel 8:1
In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me previously.
2 And I saw in the vision, and when I looked, I was in the citadel of Susa, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the vision, and I was by the river Ulai.


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

There are two references in the Bible, regarding fulfillment of the period which Jerusalem or Holy Place would be Trodden under feet.

One of them is in Daniel 8:13-14:

"Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled--the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD's people?"

He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."


So according to this prophecy, Jerusalem or Holy place would continue to be Trodden under feet by the end of a 2300 days. Since each prophetic year in bible is 1 year, that is 2300 years.


The other Prophecy is found in Revelation:

"....They will trample on the holy city for 42 months”. Revelation 11:1-2


We can see historically, there is a match for the 42 months prophecy, which its fulfillment occured in1844:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/comparing-biblical-religious-prophecies-with-history.190330/

Therefore the end of 2300 years would also occur in 1844.

Now if we go back 2300 years from 1844, we can find the beginning of the 2300 years; it will go back upto year 457 BC.

• In year 457 BC, Artaxerxes I decrees that the city government ofJerusalem be re-established.[1]. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/457_BC

So, this way, the beginning of the 2300 years period is 457 BC.

This was one part of the puzzle.

The other side of the Puzzle is in Daniel 9:25


"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.



According to Daniel 9:24-24, there will be 70 x 7 (490 days)from the time of rebuilt, and comming of the Messiah.

490 days, each prophetic day is a year = 490 years. If we count 490 years from 457 bc, it comes to 33 AD, which is when Christ had appeared and crucified.

 

[Redemptionsong]

solving the Puzzle: Jerusalem under feet of Genetiles

When I saw the title I was happy it wasn't my genitals that were so downtrodden.