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Solitary Evolution from Simplicity

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Etritonakin, Sep 21, 2019.

  1. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Life forms on earth are essentially mass-produced.
    Humans awaken (regardless of what people believe happened previously) within a body and mind which are already extremely complex and capable.
    We, as individuals, had no choice or ability to decide until that point -and increased in such afterward.
    Humans are also one of many life forms within many environments (possibly throughout the universe) which are all made of the same basic elements listed in the periodic table -which are themselves all made of the exact same things in different proportions/arrangements -which once did not exist as such, and were all produced by what we call the singularity/big bang -after which the universe and all therein essentially self-assembled for the most part (from what we know thus far). There could have been no TRUE variables OVERALL (even localized environmental variables would have been inevitable OVERALL) -unless or until self-awareness/creativity existed/developed. We know from our own example that self-awareness/creativity did develop -allowing for the inevitable course of things to be altered by conscious decision. Therefore, the development of self-awareness/creativity was inevitable.

    Before the formation of the elements, there must have existed something which could become logically arranged AS the elements. As even our selves have the ability to rearrange and even disassemble the elements, we know that those smaller components can be arranged OTHERWISE -even if we have not yet identified the most basic component/s.

    Can the most basic/pre-elemental components be/become arranged as a "self" without first being/becoming arranged as the elements?

    Anything which is in any way complex must be composed of that which is most simple. The most simple components I can imagine logically would be the "real" equivalent of "1" and "0". As we have learned, they can essentially be arranged as anything -and complex arrangements and systems are dependent upon the existence/development of previous arrangements and systems.

    Anything which can be arranged similarly can function similarly. As a simple example... three atoms might be arranged as a triangle -and three bowling balls made up of an extreme number of atoms might also be arranged as a triangle. The same principle applies to dynamic systems. Anything which is able to perform similar simple functions can be arranged to perform similar complex functions.

    Before the otherwise-inevitable course of the most simple components can be altered, self-awareness/creativity must inevitably develop. If such were not inevitable, it would be impossible.

    Such a self developing from that level of simplicity would not simply awaken within an already-complex body and mind -but would slowly awaken as a self each and every necessary step along the way.

    Our "evolution"/develoment (this is not to say creativity was not involved) happened little by little over time to individual self-replicating life forms -eventually resulting in us and other present life forms.

    Can you imagine what it would have been like for all such steps leading to self-awareness/creativity to happen to one life form?

    How does self-awareness/creativity develop? Dynamic interaction, increasing complexity and increasingly-complex feedback/action-reaction. It is that which exists inevitably becoming AWARE that it exists due to those things. That might seem like an extreme oversimplification, but all things developed from the most extreme simplicity possible.

    (I did begin thinking along these lines when considering whether or not God did develop as the sum of all things -and personally believe an overall self necessarily developed and preceded/made possible all else, but some of this could actually apply to other possible pre-elemental life forms, so I'll address other things in other posts)
     
  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    So ... what do we do with this information? How does it shape our conception of reality? What is it's significance?
     
  3. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    I think the main point is to do anything you want to with it -within reason :p

    I think those who do not believe in evolution -or creation, for that matter -might think differently if they thought about it in its broadest sense -and realized creation and evolution are part of the same whole. It's only a matter of which happened when.

    The whole E vs. C thing is absolutely unnecessary -just imagine the wasted time and energy -the negative impact on lives due to a needless controversy.

    Understanding what is possible in a pre-singularity/big bang environment could be extremely useful -and lead to an increased ability to shape reality itself.
     
  4. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Understanding what is possible in a pre-singularity/big bang environment could also provide conclusive evidence that creativity was/was not necessary to cause the formation of the elements which lend themselves to/allow for self-replication of physical life forms -as well as the singularity itself which also produced the untold number of worlds on which it could happen. Many think of the singularity as "the beginning", but it is in no way the simplicity which would be expected in the very beginning -so understanding how the singularity was produced is necessary.

    The development of self-awareness, etc. would essentially always have been happening -even if life forms on Earth are the only example -and it is a step-by-step process -but there is also a specific threshold between natural course and natural course altered by true self-aware decision.
     
    #4 Etritonakin, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  5. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Speculation is just speculation. Anything is possible in the land of "we don't know". I think it's how we react to the mystery that defines us, and perhaps provides us with out true purpose.

    Or perhaps not.
     
  6. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    The land of "we don't know" is shrinking -and will continue to do so -because we are designed (regardless of how it happened) to increase in understanding and knowledge -though we can also create more to know from that which is known. We -by our nature -react to the mystery by making it no longer a mystery -which also gives us mastery. Our purpose can be none other than living, learning and creating because it is awesome. When we make a miserable mess for ourselves and others -then we are not fulfilling our purpose.

    We are able to know what happened previously -such as how it has been determined that something at least quite like the big bang happened -because the evidence is all around us. Everything is still the same thing it has always been -but it has been rearranged. Therefore, we are able to reverse-engineer it. We do not have to go back and visit the big bang personally -and we also have the necessary evidence, basic tools and language to work even further backward in the chain of events.

    From an evolutionary viewpoint, that is the path toward the ultimate fitness to survive (self-evolution/adaptation -though such might be applied/granted TO us should another be in a position to do so, just as we might alter the otherwise-"natural" course of evolution of another/another life form) -becoming less subject to the environment and making the environment more subject to us ...but in a responsible way which benefits all and does not allow for conflict (because it is not just the environment or our own present temporary state which threaten our personal survival -we are a threat to each other).

    Regardless of how it might happen, we are on the path to becoming more than human.
     
    #6 Etritonakin, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  7. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Actually, we don't know if it's shrinking or not. Because we don't know how much there is to learn, yet, or even if it is possible for us to 'gain' on it. Perhaps existential complexity is ever-increasing at a rate greater than out ability to grasp and decipher it.
    I think you're being overly optimistic.
     
  8. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Given the constants and laws that came into being at the beginning of the universe, I don't think the "smaller components" could have been arranged otherwise. The universe developed as the initial programming dictated.
    As for creativity and self awareness, we have only one example, and the universe chugged happily along without that example for billions of years.
     
  9. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Given the constants and laws that came into being at the beginning of the universe, I don't think the "smaller components" could have been arranged otherwise. The universe developed as the initial programming dictated.
    As for creativity and self awareness, we have only one example, and the universe chugged happily along without that example for billions of years.
     
  10. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps. But there is still a lot we can learn. We (humanity) will learn more things faster if we have more educated people striving to learn. We (humanity) will learn more slowly if we have more religious people disparaging science.
     
  11. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    We definitely have a lot of catching up to do -if possible.

    We have become more than previous "humans" without any effort -and we are definitely attempting to become more than we are with effort. I think the optimism part is believing we do not have to to take the long, messy road ourselves (assuming we were not wiped out by some event or ourselves) -but I don't think I am OVERLY optimistic.
     
  12. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think it's currently far more important that we pursue wisdom, than knowledge. All science is currently doing is giving a box full of loaded pistols to a cage full of over-excited monkeys. And that's not going to end well for the monkeys.
     
  13. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think we desperately need to be pursuing increased wisdom, rather than increased knowledge, before we wipe ourselves out. And I am not at all optimistic that this much-needed change of focus will occur.
     
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  14. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    I believe that is why we live a short time and do not yet have access to the rest of the universe.
    You have this perspective now -but did not a short time ago.
    This experience focused your attention.
     
  15. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    That knowledge that you so disparagingly refer to has brought an end to polio, allowed heart transplants and coronary stents, and many, many other health improvements. Never in history have people lived longer or healthier lives.

    How can a species pursue wisdom without knowledge?

    As I stated earlier, there is still a lot we can learn. We (humanity) will learn more things faster if we have more educated people striving to learn. We (humanity) will learn more slowly if we have more religious people disparaging science.

    Religion and other superstitious beliefs have also slowed the progress of knowledge. Religion and other superstitious beliefs have done nothing to make us wiser - quite the opposite.
     
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