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So you're an atheist. Now what?

Acim

Revelation all the time
In a nutshell:

Theism can only have a clear meaning at the strictly personal level.

The term theism can only have clear meaning to each individual and not be shared by two people? Interesting. Would you say this is true for other terms, such as science? If not (true), I'd be interested in how you think it differs.

Quite often it is a poisonous crutch, far less often it is an inclination of personal style that can be handled in a healthy way.

How is it (often) poisonous? How is theism, handled in a healthy way, in your understanding/observations?

In any case, it is an entirely unsuitable idea to serve as the basis of a whole interpersonal ideology or even of a personal philosophy.

From your perspective (and experience)? Or you are saying this is observably true for all people (you've observed, and/or can imagine)?
I do wonder again if this is true with other ideas, such as "love" or "life" or "science" or even "atheism?"

Theism simply lacks the necessary substance to sustain so much weight, and the anxiety that such a realization causes motivates many believers into moral corruption and various forms of functional insanity.

How many in your observation?
Interesting that you assert it can have clear meaning on a personal level, yet lead to such dastardly things. How would you account for this?

The best remedy against that danger is to warn people in advance not to bet too heavily in such a dubious concept.

Why wouldn't the best remedy be to advocate for it to be handled in a healthy way, as you noted above?
I'm not sure you've made clear what is the dubious concept?

Why do you think there is any meaningful difference between those two choices?

Because, as stated earlier, I understand you to be theistic (along with everyone else), but to maintain the untenable position of rejection, so was seeing if you'd engage in intellectual integrity, or justification for your intellectual rejection.

For your information, I will not be guilt-shamed into protecting the reputation of theism. I have long overgrown the mindset that would make me vulnerable to such efforts.

Noted. But not looking for you to protect something that thus far you show up as only slightly understanding.

The key realization may have been that of how harmful belief in a deity tends to be. I have no way of deluding myself into a stance of feeling a duty to protect such a belief.

Oh, I'm sure you can.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I admire atheism. I see it an important awakening from the world of mythic reality. But now what? So there's no literal Guy in the Sky. How do you process this? What does this mean to you? Where do you go with this?

What is "mythic reality"? It sounds like an oxymoron.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I was raised as a Roman Catholic but became an atheist aged about 15. It was fine, like part of growing up. I remember being more upset when I found out that Santa Claus wasn't real. :p
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
An entire shift of worldview? Kind of hard to imagine it has no impact.
That implies a sudden shift from committed belief in a specific religion to hard atheism but I'm not convinced that's realistic. In my experience, people who move away from religious belief tend to go through a fairly long process of questioning and uncertainty, often never reaching any definitive conclusions either way.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To me, the logical next step is to attempt to understand theism. Not only the concept, but also its appeal, its consequences and its social significance.

Why do people use deity concepts in the first place? How did the concept attain such significance in so much of human motivation? How best to handle the waste of effort, misplacement of hope and plain confusion that it brings with it? How best to fix those hurdles and attain mutual understanding and constructive effort?
This is fantastic. I like this a lot. It sounds very much reflective of myself. I find that looking into the nature of these things reveals something far deeper and more existential than simply swiping it aside as mere fantasy. In a sense for me it allows me to see God that isn't any of those "lesser fictions", you could call them. Not that those fictions are nothing or meaningless, but understanding the nature of them says something beyond them. That's actually very much what my book I'm trying to write goes into.

Far as I remember, the shift was from assuming that everyone spoke of "God" in a fable-like way to realizing that such was not the case. I don't think I was ever not an atheist.

The realization was quite troubling. It destroyed much of my faith in humanity and brought with it a terrible duty of warding myself from the bad judgement and effective insanity of others. It made me feel quite alone, and I guess it still does.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? You mean you didn't think they really believed that God was real to them, that they were just speaking them as stories the way you understood them, and it shocked you to find out they really literally believed it? Is that what you meant or something else?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is "mythic reality"? It sounds like an oxymoron.
Oh not at all. When I say that I'm speaking of Gebser's stages of cultural development. You have magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic, and integral general overall stages. What that means is mythic symbolism was or is the dominant mode of conscious thought and awareness. Reality is filtered and translated through these modes of thinking and reasoning, by and large.

So you can have a "magic reality", a reality that is understood to be controlled by invisible strings attached to you; mythic reality, a reality controlled by God or gods outside of you; rational reality, a reality understood through the tools of logic and reason and science such as is in Modernity; "pluralistic reality" as reflected by the thoughts and worldviews dominated by postmodernity, and so on.

All of our realities are a mediated reality, seen and reflected upon through the current symbolic languages and systems we evolve to fit and reflect our current modes of consciousness. "Real reality" is only conceptual and is nothing anyone can know, hope and dream and try as they might, using either "God's word" to declare it to us, or Science to reveal and confirm it to us! :) It's all the same thing actually.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm not sure what you mean by this? You mean you didn't think they really believed that God was real to them, that they were just speaking them as stories the way you understood them, and it shocked you to find out they really literally believed it? Is that what you meant or something else?
That is it exactly.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
This is fantastic. I like this a lot. It sounds very much reflective of myself. I find that looking into the nature of these things reveals something far deeper and more existential than simply swiping it aside as mere fantasy. In a sense for me it allows me to see God that isn't any of those "lesser fictions", you could call them. Not that those fictions are nothing or meaningless, but understanding the nature of them says something beyond them. That's actually very much what my book I'm trying to write goes into.

Yes, it sounds in good harmony with my perspective. There is a reason for myth. But it is dangerous to mistake the myth for the reality.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, it sounds in good harmony with my perspective. There is a reason for myth. But it is dangerous to mistake the myth for the reality.
I'd like to discuss this point with you, but would ask that you read what I posted to Rick O' Shez about meditated realities first as a point of reference as the foundation of what I'm going to try to explain as I flesh that thought out later on today. It's an interesting point you raise I think worth exploring.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I admire atheism. I see it an important awakening from the world of mythic reality. But now what? So there's no literal Guy in the Sky. How do you process this? What does this mean to you? Where do you go with this?

To me it was a goal something to prove to myself a search for the meaning of life but once resolved it became meaningless. The goal of finding meaning in life if pursued openly and to its end is rewarding the answer you reach is meaningless.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Oh not at all. When I say that I'm speaking of Gebser's stages of cultural development. You have magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic, and integral general overall stages. What that means is mythic symbolism was or is the dominant mode of conscious thought and awareness. Reality is filtered and translated through these modes of thinking and reasoning, by and large.
Agreed. I will be forever grateful for Ken Wilber for making me aware of Spiral Dynamics, incidentally. It is so helpful in understanding and explaining so much!

So you can have a "magic reality", a reality that is understood to be controlled by invisible strings attached to you; mythic reality, a reality controlled by God or gods outside of you; rational reality, a reality understood through the tools of logic and reason and science such as is in Modernity; "pluralistic reality" as reflected by the thoughts and worldviews dominated by postmodernity, and so on.

All of our realities are a mediated reality, seen and reflected upon through the current symbolic languages and systems we evolve to fit and reflect our current modes of consciousness. "Real reality" is only conceptual and is nothing anyone can know, hope and dream and try as they might, using either "God's word" to declare it to us, or Science to reveal and confirm it to us! :) It's all the same thing actually.

Working with that terminology, my previous statement that it is dangerous to confuse the myth with the reality might perhaps be more clear if I say that those various realities that you describe have their own parameters and fields of competence, and there is a lot of harm that can and does arise when mythical reality is handled as if it could work for the purposes of more rational realities.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Agreed. I will be forever grateful for Ken Wilber for making me aware of Spiral Dynamics, incidentally. It is so helpful in understanding and explaining so much!
It definitely does by providing legitimate contexts to evaluate and understand the types of things we encounter in religion, or just values in general. When you look at Christianity for instance, it's not all the same thing when someone says they believe in God or Jesus. Do they mean the magic Jesus whom they "plead his blood" to protect them from demonic attacks and cite his name because it has "power"? Do they mean the mythic Jesus who literally walked on water and rose from the dead bodily and rules from heaven on high? Do they mean the rational Jesus whose wisdom teachings compare with other wisdom teachers? Do they mean the pluralist Jesus who see all as equals where love is the highest answer for our human unity? Do they mean the Integral Jesus who saw people for where they were at and spoke in their language to try to inspire growth and meaning on their paths?

So I've learned, and am learning, to just listen to how they speak to understand where they are at, which color are they mostly and try to speak to that level. And not just that, but to understand about the differences between levels and line. They may be very rationalistic and orange, or modern, but in the line of development for religion and spirituality, they are a red or amber. There's no value judgment of them in this as well. No need to call them "idiots". It's actually appropriate for that stage, and necessary in order to build upon the positive things of that level in order to grow into the next. No stage skipping. :) To me, it removes judging others.

Working with that terminology, my previous statement that it is dangerous to confuse the myth with the reality might perhaps be more clear if I say that those various realities that you describe have their own parameters and fields of competence, and there is a lot of harm that can and does arise when mythical reality is handled as if it could work for the purposes of more rational realities.
Yes, and this is exactly what I was going to explore. Mythic reality is all fine and appropriate when you live in a predominantly mythic world and culture. But the problem is we in the West live mostly in an Orange, or Modern, rationalistic world post Enlightenment. To be stuck at mythic means when confronted with the world of scientific truths, they simply cannot see them. They try to be rational, to try to "compete" with science and modernity by trying to make mythic truth rational truth. So you end up with pseudosciences and whatnot. If you live in a modern world with the language of modernity rules, then mythic language is in conflict with it and harms those who are growing into or are at the modern stage and beyond. You can't allow Creationism in public schools when they are teaching the tools and languages of modernity. That's where they become an issue. But otherwise, they function fine at the level of mythic.

The real thing that I think very few recognize is that people at the mythic stage are actually currently incapable of thinking scientifically and rationally because that doesn't fit into a mythic worldspace. They have to grow into it. If you think in terms of a God who magically poofed everything into existence as read literally from the book of Genesis, that cannot allow for gradual natural process. There would be no God to them if that were true. The Bible doesn't lie, they reason.

And so to cite again that debate between Nye and Ken Ham, they were not debating science at all! The "debate" was simply the rational stage trying to get the mythic stage to be something it cannot ever be. All Ham did was take scientific language to speak mythic beliefs with, confusing everyone. Nye thought ham was arguing "bad science," when it reality he was just using science words to speak his mythic truths with, to try to justify those truths using the language of modernity. But Ham was not, and is not capable of scientific reasoning. He's a mythic thinker.

There's some bit of wisdom I heard Wilber once say that applies. You can't reason or argue someone into growing into another stage of development. He said it's like yelling at your bones, "Grow!". It's not going to happen that way.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I admire atheism. I see it an important awakening from the world of mythic reality. But now what? So there's no literal Guy in the Sky. How do you process this? What does this mean to you? Where do you go with this?

I read the question a few times before I answered. At times I have to admit it sounded paternalistic to me, but in the end I figured I was being unfair and overthinking it.

Atheism should never be the end of thought. Given that it provides no answers, I don't see how it could be, to be honest.

In my particular and personal case, nothing much changed. Whilst I was raised loosely Christian, and I attended church, I don't remember ever believing. Whilst my parents may prefer me to be Christian, they're fine with my atheism and always have been. As to why that matters in this context...well...

For some I would imagine the 'What next' step involves considerable cultural upheaval. Family and friendships can alter. These practical considerations have considerable impact on what you could call the 'spiritual' well being of someone. Similarly, if they are new to atheism the reactions and changed outlook on life can become overwhelming and central to everything for a while.

But for me it didn't change much practically at all. I've always studied religion, philosophy and politics, with the order switching based on mood or what I find at the bookshop.

I still seek to understand the world around me better, but for me this has always been about better understanding humans and their interactions, in truth.

I come to a place like this to keep my mind broad on what religion and spiritualism is, but whilst I am genuinely interested in these topics in a broad sense, my interest becomes keener when belief motivates actions and actions influence my world, to be honest.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I admire atheism. I see it an important awakening from the world of mythic reality. But now what? So there's no literal Guy in the Sky. How do you process this? What does this mean to you? Where do you go with this?
What does an atheist do?
I'm here doing it right now.
But sometimes I do other things elsewhere.
My life is remarkably similar (in its unremarkability) to believers....but without church attendance.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I admire atheism. I see it an important awakening from the world of mythic reality. But now what? So there's no literal Guy in the Sky. How do you process this? What does this mean to you? Where do you go with this?
Well, it was once assumed that something called "the Ether" existed, and was necessary to explain the transmission of forces like magnetism and gravity. Turns out there is no Ether. So now what? How do you process this? What does it mean to you and where do you go with it?
 
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