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So You Believe Everything In The Bible?

linwood

Well-Known Member
I am sorry if this is in the wrong place and it may be a bit off topic, but if one does not believe in God or any reward or punishment for that matter after death, what motivates them to live a moral life? What keeps them from doing the most evil and outlandish things in the world if they feel they shall not be judged for it? What reason is there for living at all but just to survive? I am just confused that if you have no faith in God, why live a moral life at all? Sorry but I have been bugged by this question for a while now!

No problem, in fact as an atheist this is my favorite question to answer.

As far as morality goes I believe if the only reason you respect the lives of others is to gain the rewards of a heavenly afterlife or to avoid the torment of eternal hell you aren`t really basing your actions on morals.
You`re basing them on fear and or desire.
Niether of these concepts is at all selfless.

I have respect for others because I recognise their right to a safe, happy life.
I have respect for others because our society would be Hell on Earth of anyone could do anything they wanted in any self serving manner regardless of the pain it might cause others.
Our society would collapse and everyones life would either cease to exist or become intolerable.
After all, I am judged for whatever evil I may commit, I am judged by myself and the rest of my culture.

My reason for life.
When you get right down to it we all make our own reasons for living..even you, you just think they`re from God.
:)

My own personal reasons for living and living well..

My daughter, if I weren`t here who would explain to her why chickens don`t actually "poop" eggs out, why Barney the Dinosaur doesn`t have a last name, why we have to respect other people even though they may sometimes make her mad?

Have you ever seen a 4 year olds face the very moment she realised she just tied her own shoe for the first time without any help?
If that isn`t a reason to live then there is no reason to live.
I have literally thousands of moments exactly like this one in my future.
Who would want to miss that?

My stepsons,
The schooling and the concepts of life they are just learning about are so hard to understand from an adolescent perspective.
Who would guide them through these situations that adults even have a hard time understanding?
The pride in their accomplishments.
Understanding that I am in some way responsible for the poise and grace they show when they fail and the humilty they have when they succeed.

My wife,
This is the person whose shoulders all of the above would fall on if I didn`t recognise my reasons for living.
I love her and I wouldn`t want to leave her .
We`ve promised each other we would build a life for our family that will be safe and happy.
This is not an easy job in this day and age, how could I leave her to finish this task alone?

The world..nature..sunsets..friendships...hot apple pie ala mode!

I could go on and on giving my reasons for living, I believe they may be infinite.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Doc said:
I am sorry if this is in the wrong place and it may be a bit off topic, but if one does not believe in God or any reward or punishment for that matter after death, what motivates them to live a moral life? What keeps them from doing the most evil and outlandish things in the world if they feel they shall not be judged for it? What reason is there for living at all but just to survive? I am just confused that if you have no faith in God, why live a moral life at all? Sorry but I have been bugged by this question for a while now!
Great question Doc. Linwood beat me to it and stole some of my thunder, but I would like to expound on what he said.

As far as this being off topic, I hope they let us finish out the thoughts.

I am 100% in agreement with Linwood and do not disagree with any part of his post. I will add this though - my sister and I were raised by parents that were devoutly Christian, who believed that the lessons we were taught in Sunday school would carry us through life, and loved us beyond question.
I was incredibly fortunate though - my Father (he was killed when I was 11 years old) also taught me that God gave me a mind that can reason. He told me that no matter what was said, or who said it, I should always question what was said (he wanted me to be an open minded skeptic). This was to include what he himself and my Mother taught me. He told me that I should always be strong enough mentally to reach my own conclusions, regardless of what that might bring. I asked him one day about what I was taught in Sunday School - if it could ever be wrong (remember that he is answering a kid that is 9 years old at the time) - and he asked me if I thought it was possible (that the Sunday School lessons could be wrong). Notice that he did not feed me an answer. I replied that it made sense to me that it was possible. He then told me to question it - to put it to the test. I did. Two years later, when he was killed, I asked God why - how could this happen? Either God didn't know, or he didn't deem me worthy of a response. Either way, for me, God still has some explaining to do.

I told you that so that I could tell you this - I kept what I considered the most sacred rule of Christianity that I was taught - "Due unto others, as you would have them do unto you". THAT is my moral compass. So when the question of same sex marriages, or anything else controversial comes up, I first ask that question, then I ask if there is a logical, rational reason that it should not be applied. If there is no logical, rational reason - I apply the Golden Rule. Live and let live.

Lastly, I will always stop when I see a car broken down on the side of the road (especially if it is a woman) to see if they need help. I will always do what is right by a child - no matter the consequences. I will never stand idly by while someone is persecuted (this has cost me dearly in the past - and I am sure that it will in the future).

My question to you is this Doc - do you really believe that your morals come only from God? Is it possible that you have morals that reside within you that you would keep if you were to fall from grace with your God? My guess is that for the vast majority of Christians that I know, their morals truly reside within - whether they recognize that or not. I will never believe that most people would be amoral or immoral if they didn't have the crutch of God and church. At least, that is my deepest hope. If I am wrong, humanity is in for a harsh ride.

Respectfully,
TVOR
 

Faust

Active Member
If you think translators haven't made errors, added to, etc...you are the one making it convenient for yourself. The oldest texts contain father. I do not search for error as you do. I search and study for the truth. If I'm going to believe that the original manuscripts contained the Word of God then yes I will go to extremes in finding it. Plus I have the gift of the spirit to guide me unto those truths. The fact is the rightly-divided Word of God has "father".

Yes, the Bible is full of errors. I believe that is the point of this thread.
You keep refereing to the "oldest texts" but you fail to tell us what those texts are or where to find them.You have passed judgement on me by stating that I search for error. I have only stated what the bible states and where to find it.(interestingly enough the book of Luke also provides a geneology of Jesus but from David to Joseph they share only two names in common) You are free to "believe" anything you want but there is a difference between believing something and being able to provide the evidence that those beliefs are based on. If the extremes of your search have lead to evidence that you can sight then please share it. I personally claim no "otherworldly powers" such as "the gift of the spirit" to act as research and blogging buddy to guide me unto any truths, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you shared the results of your joint effort with me. You state the "rightly divided word of God" as fact but I am not aware of any text with that title. I can only derive from this that "rightly divided" means that you can divide scripture into what is convenient to your beliefs and what conflicts with them and relegate the conflicting scripture to the stature of erroneous. This leads us right back to the original intent of this thread, that the Bible contains errors.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
He told me that I should always be strong enough mentally to reach my own conclusions, regardless of what that might bring. I asked him one day about what I was taught in Sunday School - if it could ever be wrong (remember that he is answering a kid that is 9 years old at the time) - and he asked me if I thought it was possible (that the Sunday School lessons could be wrong). Notice that he did not feed me an answer.

This is a much harder thing to do than it might sound, it is difficult for me as an atheist so I imagine it would even be more difficult for a theist.

When my kids ask questions about God and religion it is hard for me NOT to imprint my bias on my answers and I know I fail sometimes.
Because I know I fail I will always tell them they should question the answer I just gave them as well.

They`ll figure it out.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
linwood said:
This is a much harder thing to do than it might sound, it is difficult for me as an atheist so I imagine it would even be more difficult for a theist.
When my kids ask questions about God and religion it is hard for me NOT to imprint my bias on my answers and I know I fail sometimes.
Because I know I fail I will always tell them they should question the answer I just gave them as well.
They`ll figure it out.
Linwood -
Man, am I glad to hear you say that. My twelve year old son and I had our first in depth discussion about God in the car about two weeks ago. I explained Theists, Deists, Atheists, and Agnostics to him. We went into what revealed faith is and empiricism. He is a bright kid, and he understands each of these. His teacher for the last two years is a dyed-in-the-wool hardcore right-wing Christian. He was an excellent teacher (we were glad Ty was in his class). I used to kid him that if Ty had him as a teacher for another year that he was gonna want to join the John Birch Society.

Anyway, as the conversation about religion and God unfolded, I was extremely concious of trying not to impart my bias toward Agnosticism. At the end of the conversation, he decided that believing in God would take a pretty large leap of faith. I ended the conversation by telling him that he should make his decisions based on what his mind told him - not what I or any other human tells him is right.

There is hope yet.

TVOR
 

true blood

Active Member
Faust said:
If you think translators haven't made errors, added to, etc...you are the one making it convenient for yourself. The oldest texts contain father. I do not search for error as you do. I search and study for the truth. If I'm going to believe that the original manuscripts contained the Word of God then yes I will go to extremes in finding it. Plus I have the gift of the spirit to guide me unto those truths. The fact is the rightly-divided Word of God has "father".

Yes, the Bible is full of errors. I believe that is the point of this thread.
You keep refereing to the "oldest texts" but you fail to tell us what those texts are or where to find them.You have passed judgement on me by stating that I search for error. I have only stated what the bible states and where to find it.(interestingly enough the book of Luke also provides a geneology of Jesus but from David to Joseph they share only two names in common) You are free to "believe" anything you want but there is a difference between believing something and being able to provide the evidence that those beliefs are based on. If the extremes of your search have lead to evidence that you can sight then please share it. I personally claim no "otherworldly powers" such as "the gift of the spirit" to act as research and blogging buddy to guide me unto any truths, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind if you shared the results of your joint effort with me. You state the "rightly divided word of God" as fact but I am not aware of any text with that title. I can only derive from this that "rightly divided" means that you can divide scripture into what is convenient to your beliefs and what conflicts with them and relegate the conflicting scripture to the stature of erroneous. This leads us right back to the original intent of this thread, that the Bible contains errors.

The Word of God contains no errors, that's what I'm saying. I also agree that there are errors in the Bible. We do not have the original manuscripts. What we have are thousands of translations passed down from centuries of scribes. The rightly-dividing of the Word of God is the workmanship in which every man and woman must do to stand approved before God. And no one can accomplish this without the guidance of the spirit, the Word of God is spiritually discerned.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
The Word of God contains no errors, that's what I'm saying. I also agree that there are errors in the Bible. We do not have the original manuscripts. What we have are thousands of translations passed down from centuries of scribes. The rightly-dividing of the Word of God is the workmanship in which every man and woman must do to stand approved before God. And no one can accomplish this without the guidance of the spirit, the Word of God is spiritually discerned.

why would God want the manuscript to be diluted and be misinterpreted? unless, if God did not want the bible in the first place.... hmm....

sure, its all the humans fault. but why? why would want the JudeoChristian God and HIs word to be misinterpreted and diluted? hmm. thats wierd.
 

true blood

Active Member
Everything that pertains to salvation and life is in every bible. That's the main theme of the entire book and I do not see how it [main theme] has been watered down. Are you aware that every single . , ; ! italized word, capital letter has been added by men?
 
true blood-- Are you aware that the original manuscripts, before they were ever copied/translated/passed down, were written by men?
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
true blood said:
The Word of God contains no errors, that's what I'm saying. I also agree that there are errors in the Bible. We do not have the original manuscripts. What we have are thousands of translations passed down from centuries of scribes. The rightly-dividing of the Word of God is the workmanship in which every man and woman must do to stand approved before God. And no one can accomplish this without the guidance of the spirit, the Word of God is spiritually discerned.
True blood -
I am going to take Mr. Spinkles preceding post a step further and ask a question. Do you believe that the Bible is:
a) the word of God
b) the inspired word of God
c) a collection of writings from men that walked the earth in times past
d) the inspired word of God, with input from men through the ages
e) something else

I am truly asking - I'm not sure I understand exactly how you see this.

Matter of fact, I think I'll start this as a thread.

Thanks,
TVOR
 

true blood

Active Member
The bible says there are two types of doctrine; man-made doctrine [what man's mind has thought up or concluded] and God-breathed doctrine [that which holy men spoke and wrote as it was revealed to them by God. II Timothy 3:16. How then are we to know whether what we read is God's truth or man's opinion? By testing it against God's Word. The Bible, being in its original form God's revealed Word to man would speak the truth for God is Truth. Therefore to get to God's doctrine, among man's doctrine, one has to divided God's Word. II Timothy 2:15. That means to the extent one rightly divides the Word of Truth, one will have true doctrine, that is, right believing and knowledge, the opposite [wrongly dividing the Word of Truth], one has false doctrine, man-made.

From the host of different beliefs in Christianity taught today, it is evident that not all doctrine is from rightly-dividing Word.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
true blood said:
The bible says there are two types of doctrine; man-made doctrine [what man's mind has thought up or concluded] and God-breathed doctrine [that which holy men spoke and wrote as it was revealed to them by God. II Timothy 3:16. How then are we to know whether what we read is God's truth or man's opinion? By testing it against God's Word. The Bible, being in its original form God's revealed Word to man would speak the truth for God is Truth. Therefore to get to God's doctrine, among man's doctrine, one has to divided God's Word. II Timothy 2:15. That means to the extent one rightly divides the Word of Truth, one will have true doctrine, that is, right believing and knowledge, the opposite [wrongly dividing the Word of Truth], one has false doctrine, man-made.

From the host of different beliefs in Christianity taught today, it is evident that not all doctrine is from rightly-dividing Word.
True blood -
I appreciate the answer, and I don't mean to sound obtuse, but to make certain that I understand, am I correct when I say that I think your answer was d) on the list above?

Thanks,
TVOR
 

true blood

Active Member
At this moment in my life I would go with d. Even while Paul was alive and ministering, the pure gospel which he preached was being contaminated by those who wanted to modify God's Word to their own predirlection. The falling away in the Christian Church began to take place in the first century. II Timothy 1:15, II Timothy 4:10. By then there were the Judaising Christians who plagued Paul in their attempt to keep Christian believers under the law and bondage of the Old Testament. Then there were the Gnostics with their roots in Greek philosophy and religious ideas. Obviously with the rise of various sects, the truth of God's Word starts to become infiltrated by theories. I agree that there are foreign elements in today's Bible. There have been included words as an attempt of scribes to corrupt the original text with theology.
 

Faust

Active Member
There have been included words as an attempt of scribes to corrupt the original text with theology.

True Blood,
I'm beginning to understand what your saying but I'm still a little fuzzy on this.
I'm aware of the work of scholars who have been de-constructing the Bible in an attempt to discern the actual writings of Paul from those attributed to him by other authors. Also such works as the Q source. But I believe that what your saying is that it is a matter of personal interpretation based on achieving a certain level of spirituality. If this is the case I have to ask, who does the dividing? Would your interpretation be correct or the fellow down the street? I mean doesn't that lead to the possibility of multiple "rightly divided" interpretations? Isn't that why there are so many different denominations in the first place?
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
The Voice of Reason said:
Linwood -
Man, am I glad to hear you say that. My twelve year old son and I had our first in depth discussion about God in the car about two weeks ago. - not what I or any other human tells him is right.

My problem is my 4 year old..yes..4 year old.
I can`t explain to her how to think these things through..but I`m surrounded by fundys here...it`s hard.

Here`s a post I made awhile back about a dilemma I had with her.


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1746&page=2
 

true blood

Active Member
Faust said:
There have been included words as an attempt of scribes to corrupt the original text with theology.

True Blood,
I'm beginning to understand what your saying but I'm still a little fuzzy on this.
I'm aware of the work of scholars who have been de-constructing the Bible in an attempt to discern the actual writings of Paul from those attributed to him by other authors. Also such works as the Q source. But I believe that what your saying is that it is a matter of personal interpretation based on achieving a certain level of spirituality. If this is the case I have to ask, who does the dividing? Would your interpretation be correct or the fellow down the street? I mean doesn't that lead to the possibility of multiple "rightly divided" interpretations? Isn't that why there are so many different denominations in the first place?

It's a path you must basicly take alone. You need to unlearn certain things such as religious upbringings and culture, and begin stark naked. There is an invisible God and it is His will for you to know His Word, so it would be wise to thank him for helping you with the journey, expect his help and give him thanks. If you're going to read and look for errors and discrepencies you lost before you even started. Of course there are textual mistakes and errors, God knows this, but these are the mistakes and words of men. You need to study and find God's word. God is a Spirit [invisible] and you are flesh, two different realms, each with its own boundaries. Flesh communicates with each other by way of symbols, be they spoken, pictures or sign language. But Spirit cannot communicate with mind, senses or reason. Spirit can communicate with spirit only, and flesh by way of the senses communicates only with the senses or the material realm. God overcomes this by His spirit which he put upon people in the Old Testament times and those who are born again during this Age of Grace. Another device of his to communicate with men and women in the material realm is by His only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ and finally by the written and spoken word. It should make sense to you that since you can't see God, then he either doesn't exist or is invisible, I choose to believe that he is invisible. Therefore in order for God to manifest Himself in the world of the flesh, He has to use concrete forms for our senses to recognize. Until you recieve the gift of the spirit of God and can communicate together in the realm of the spirit, the only possible way you can know God is His Word, the same as you are your word and I am my word. Our words are our communication of our thoughts, feelings and ideas. Similarly, God's Word is His thoughts and ideas communicated to us. When you make a statement and your word is your will, then your words are just as much a part of you as is your body. But the Scriptures contains the written Words, you should be aware that there is the spoken Words and the incarnate Word. These three means have gradually revealed God [invisible] throughout Time. So when I say rightly-divide the Word of God, I speak of right believing and knowledge of all three forms of Word. It's also possible that He already came unto you but you did not receive His Word, in either its spoken or written or incarnate form.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
the child will learn ( i hope) as she grows older and matures not to swallow everything people tell her. as a teen, she will naturally have a questioning mind. thats where the real dilemmas come from.. *wink*
 
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