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So why become a muslim (Amanaki's journey)

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I have nothing against Shia islam or those who belong to that part of Islam. My dessision come down to what my feeling of the teachings says, actually it is not major differences in my understanding, but much of the difference lay in the understanding of who was the next to lead muslims after Muhammad passed away.
To me the sunni version do sound right, but to a shia muslim their version is the correct.
Ok, I am a Bahai. But I had done some research on Shi vs Sunni.
In Shia Islam, it is believed that after Muhammad there are 12 Imams appointed by Allah, to explain and interprete Quran for the Muslims.
Thus, the sayings of these Imams are considered a divine guidance and are hadithes. The Shia collection of hadithes gives a significant information related to interpretation of Quran, which is not found in Sunni sources, and at the same time, the Sunni sources of hadithes have some info, which is not found in Shia sources. The Quran forbids to be part of a sect, and only have a portion of guidance. So, to me, the best islam, is neither Shia sect or Sunni, or even Quranic, but, it is the whole true knowledge, found in combination of Shia and Sunni sources together. Just to be Muslim, with no fanaticism toward any sect, and accept the good teachings, whether it's in Shi or Sunni source. Just my thoughts, anyways.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Ok, I am a Bahai. But I had done some research on Shi vs Sunni.
In Shia Islam, it is believed that after Muhammad there are 12 Imams appointed by Allah, to explain and interprete Quran for the Muslims.
Thus, the sayings of these Imams are considered a divine guidance and are hadithes. The Shia collection of hadithes gives a significant information related to interpretation of Quran, which is not found in Sunni sources, and at the same time, the Sunni sources of hadithes have some info, which is not found in Shia sources. The Quran forbids to be part of a sect, and only have a portion of guidance. So, to me, the best islam, is neither Shia sect or Sunni, or even Quranic, but, it is the whole true knowledge, found in combination of Shia and Sunni sources together. Just to be Muslim, with no fanaticism toward any sect, and accept the good teachings, whether it's in Shi or Sunni source. Just my thoughts, anyways.

I believe the quran is clear by itself.

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I have nothing against Shia islam or those who belong to that part of Islam. My dessision come down to what my feeling of the teachings says, actually it is not major differences in my understanding, but much of the difference lay in the understanding of who was the next to lead muslims after Muhammad passed away.
To me the sunni version do sound right, but to a shia muslim their version is the correct.

The problem is not your view, but reality of relationship between Sunni and Shiite divisions of Islam.

I personally from the Baha'i perspective see all believers in Islam as one, and not divided in conflict as they are against each other.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I was asked by @Rival if i wanted to open a new OP and tell a bit about my choice of religioues belief or path. Something i would love to share.

I have had a long time within in different religioues and siritual teachingsas many here already know. But UI have always felt something missing and never stopped my search for what i really believe in. That said, i had read a bit about Islam many many years ago, but it did not feel right to me, it was so much negativity around Islam and i was young. So my path went on to buddhism and later to Falun Gong. I have nothing bad to say about any of those teachings, but as mention earlier, something was missing.

So let me turn the time a few monets back when I again come in to an articel about Islam and how the world look at it today. I was horrified of what i was reading because it was nothing like the Islam i had been introduced to from friends over the time. So i started to read an english transaltion of the Holy
Quran. And i found the things I had missed all this years, i found a teaching clear as day to me. but yes i found also verses i was thinking, wow hold on now, that does not sound spiritual at all.
I was eager to understand more, and suddendly in my personal life, i met a young woman who are muslim, so carefully i started to ask questions about the Quran and about her way of seeing the teaching. She explained to me those verses i was worried about, and she even took me to her mosque so i could speak with the elders there, to understand Islam from within its culture and spiritual meeting points of the mosque.

The young muslim woman is today my girlfriend:)

So the more i read the more clear it become to me that it was true teaching. And it took some weeks before i chose to convert.
Honestly i did expect to start disliking other religions because this was something many around me warned me about, if you become a muslim you will hate everyone and want to kill them, and you become a terrorist. Non of that has happen, actually the opposite has happen, i feel everyone is in tittle to have their belief, their religion.

My mind is more calm now then ever before, and i have meditated for many many thousands of hours before, but never felt so calm then i do now.
Many here thw last 6 months have seen me go from a normally calm person, to a fire of bad words and accusing people in RF of bad things. to now i am calm and accept your critique and quetions with open arms.

So a bit about the negative image of Islam, Yes there are groups who are extremists and who do really evil deeds and they call them self muslims or muhadins, they believe in a holy war, but even with my limited knowledge have seen that true jihad is not a war toward others, it is a war within our self, to take away the evil from within. So no i will never support a islamic group who do terror toward others. I will not harm anyone, to me Islam is a peacefull teaching.

And yes i accept that not everyone here going to agree with my view of Islam, maybe even other muslims will dissagree with some of my words here. that is ok. you are welcome to make your critique of me if i am in any shape or form evil toward you, or clearly do something wrong.

Questions are welcome too from anyone who want to know more about why i did this convertion.

PS: f you are an atheist and you read this far, I have put away my war hammer and will not be treating you guys the bad way as i did in the past.

Thanks for sharing your journey @Amanaki and for @Rival for encouraging you to create this thread.

I'm really pleased you have found a religion that feels right for you. Like you, I believe Muhammad (PBUH) is a Messenger of Allah and the Quran is the Word of God. Its taken me a while to truly appreciate the truth of Muhammad's Revelation. I came to that realisation largely through becoming a Baha'i. However, Islam has never appealed to me to the extent I would want to convert. The biggest problem as I see it, is freedom of religion. In many places in the world, once one becomes a Muslim, there are serious consequences with leaving Islam and joining another religion or becoming an atheist. There are so called apostasy laws.

Further, Muslims see Muhammad (PBUH) as being the final Prophet for all time. That means anyone with a claim to a Divine Revelation after Muhammad (PBUH) including the Founders of the Babi/Baha'i Faiths are false Prophets. It doesn't bother me at all that the Baha'i Faith is rejected by Muslims or anyone else for that matter. It does bother me when one religion is declared an apostate religions based on ideological purity (Muhammad is the final Prophet of all time). It disturbs me when such a declaration against apostates become justification for persecution, torture, imprisonment and death in some countries.

So my question for you today my friend is how you feel about Islam's long history of persecution of peoples of other faiths including the Baha'is.

How do you view apostasy laws?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I get why one could think that. I'm not sure if it had any bearing on Amanaki's decision or not, but its really none of my business one way or the other.

I think in general we are too hard on people that meet someone and then end up converting(whether that relationship is one of friendship, romance, or business). Sometimes you are not exposed to that way of thinking until you meet that person, and its not fair to judge that the person converted specifically because of that person. Perhaps that person just opened their mind in a new way. That could go for any faith(or lack thereof).

You're right... it's certainty possible that his feelings for the young lady had nothing to do with it. But I have my doubts when you consider that three weeks later he converted. I suspect - and again this is just my personal assumption - that perhaps much of what he felt was 'missing from his religion' had far more to do with missing a meaningful relationship in his life than the religion he followed.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
You can suspect that my friend, as i mention in an other thread, she might have made the desission more easy for me, but she is not the reason for my convertion. But she is a good plus in the situation yes.

As I said, it's nothing more than my personal opinion. You may be absolutely right... though I question whether you are in the best position to make an unbiased judgement about what your underlying motivations may be. The first question that pops to mind is would she be your girlfriend right now if you had not embraced her religion?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Thanks for sharing your journey @Amanaki and for @Rival for encouraging you to create this thread.

I'm really pleased you have found a religion that feels right for you. Like you, I believe Muhammad (PBUH) is a Messenger of Allah and the Quran is the Word of God. Its taken me a while to truly appreciate the truth of Muhammad's Revelation. I came to that realisation largely through becoming a Baha'i. However, Islam has never appealed to me to the extent I would want to convert. The biggest problem as I see it, is freedom of religion. In many places in the world, once one becomes a Muslim, there are serious consequences with leaving Islam and joining another religion or becoming an atheist. There are so called apostasy laws.

Further, Muslims see Muhammad (PBUH) as being the final Prophet for all time. That means anyone with a claim to a Divine Revelation after Muhammad (PBUH) including the Founders of the Babi/Baha'i Faiths are false Prophets. It doesn't bother me at all that the Baha'i Faith is rejected by Muslims or anyone else. It does bother me when one religion is declared an apostate religions based on ideological purity (Muhammad is the final Prophet of all time). It disturbs me declaration against apostates become justification for persecution, torture, imprisonment and death in some countries.

So my question for you today my friend is how you feel about Islam's long history of persecution of peoples of other faiths including the Baha'is.

How do you view apostasy laws?
Thank you @adrian009 as always your reply is good.
The questions you ask are of very importance and its great you ask.

As you knowmy background in spiritual teachings comes mainly from buddhism anf Falun Gong, and those teachings do teach there are countless gods and Buddhas out there. So for me to go to a religion where only one God is accepted as the true and only God is actually something i do find a bit difficult, but nobody said it would be easy to convert the way i did :)

I do not doubt the teaching of Islam but i can see that interpretation done in the history of islam can have caused difficulties, and created whst we see as torture, anger and killings in todays world.
Personally i think some if not all of this wrong actions comes from misunderstandings from those who practice islam in a very extreme way.
In some parts of the Quran it says we should embrace our brothers and sisters of all faiths because they are believers. But other places it says we should show no mercy.

Honestly i have not yet understood everything the teaching says, but yes i do see the confusion and problems it can cause.

Your questions will follow me for some time when i study the Quran and the Sunnah in deeper sense.

As you understand i do not hold answer to everything in islam teaching.
I believe that the trust in the Quran will grown when studied deeper. But to believe it blindly... i am not that kind of muslim, i will be a muslim who ask a million questions when i study.
Maybe some muslim brothers of me will say i do wrong, but i must follow my heart. And i see many muslims who do not follow islam the way it is said to be done.
Give me some time to get deeper in to the teaching, and my answers will become better.

I can only speak for my view about leaving islam.
I think the Quran gives approval to it, but some muslimsin some countries are the once who say it is illigal and should be punished. I would ask them why :)
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
As I said, it's nothing more than my personal opinion. You may be absolutely right... though I question whether you are in the best position to make an unbiased judgement about what your underlying motivations may be. The first question that pops to mind is would she be your girlfriend right now if you had not embraced her religion?
Yes she would, even her family approved of me before my convertion
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I prefer not making labels to the religion, Just Muslim, sunni, shia ..etc makes divisions,
our religion is Islam, no 2nd word with it.
Honestly, I think, if you are saying, you are a Quran only Muslim, in reality, you are following a new sect, "Quran only Muslim sect", even if you call it only Muslim without second word. The reason I think that, is because, this is just another way of making a division, and separating from the rest of Muslims, saying "I am better Muslims, I am the true Muslim, and Shia or Sunni Muslim is wrong".
But if we say, I am after the truth, I am after learning, no matter where I find it, then, you did not divide or separate yourself from the rest.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes she would, even her family approved of me before my convertion
I was glad to hear you became a Muslim and that you got a new girlfriend given what I know about what you have been going through lately. :)

I believe that Islam is the closest religion to the Baha'i Faith, and there are many similarities. For example, we both believe in the one true God and have a similar conception of God, and we both have 5 pillars, as I explained to this Muslim a few months ago:

#678 Trailblazer

I really need to read the whole Qur'an but I have not yet had time. Although I have not read all of Qur'an, I have read what Baha'u'llah quoted from the Qur'an, and He quoted it extensively in The Kitáb-i-Íqán

The Kitáb-i-Íqán (Persian: كتاب ايقان‎, Arabic: كتاب الإيقان‎ "Book of Certitude") is one of many books held sacred by followers of the Bahá'í Faith; it is their primary theological work. One Bahá'í scholar states that it can be regarded as the "most influential Quran commentary in Persian outside the Muslim world," because of its international audience.[1] It is sometimes referred to as the Book of Iqan or simply The Iqan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitab-i-Iqan
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I believe the quran is clear by itself.

I am not saying the Quran is not clear by itself. The Quran itself teaches, there is an ego inside each one of us, which makes it possible for us to interpret word of God according to our own desire and wishes, or to suit our own imagination. Since there is such a possibility, to be on the safe side, it is best to stick with how Muhammad and His 12 successors understood and explained the Quran. Why not?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Honestly, I think, if you are saying, you are a Quran only Muslim, in reality, you are following a new sect, "Quran only Muslim sect", even if you call it only Muslim without second word. The reason I think that, is because, this is just another way of making a division, and separating from the rest of Muslims, saying "I am better Muslims, I am the true Muslim, and Shia or Sunni Muslim is wrong".
But if we say, I am after the truth, I am after learning, no matter where I find it, then, you did not divide or separate yourself from the rest.

Muslim is submission in peace with Allah, all prophets were Muslims
The same description that you can find in the bible

Job 22:21
Submit to God and be at peace with him; in this way prosperity will come to you.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I am not saying the Quran is not clear by itself. The Quran itself teaches, there is an ego inside each one of us, which makes it possible for us to interpret word of God according to our own desire and wishes, or to suit our own imagination. Since there is such a possibility, to be on the safe side, it is best to stick with how Muhammad and His 12 successors understood and explained the Quran. Why not?

From where you got the idea that the 12 successors are the ones who'll interpret
the quran, and why waiting for the 12 successors to interpret the quran.
Do you mean that the quran wasn't understood before the 12 successors?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
From where you got the idea that the 12 successors are the ones who'll interpret
the quran, and why waiting for the 12 successors to interpret the quran.
Do you mean that the quran wasn't understood before the 12 successors?
The idea of 12 Imams, or 12 guides, chosen by God, comes from verse 3:7.

Verse 3:7, tells us, the possibility that some verses which are Mutishabihat, be misinterpreted by some people, and cause mischief. In the same verse, it says, there is a group of people, who are well-grounded in knowledge (راسخون فی العلم) who know its interpretation.
It is a valid question, to ask, who are the well-grounded in knowledge? Are they ordinary Muslims? Or they are a special people, who Allah gave them such knowledge. To find this answer, there are some Hadithes which states, the well-grounded in knowledge is the Prophet and the 12 Imams after Him.
And when I read the Hadithes of the Prophet and the Imams, I see, they had deep knowledge of interpretation. A knowledge that I do not see from ordinary people.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
The idea of 12 Imams, or 12 guides, chosen by God, comes from verse 3:7.

Verse 3:7, tells us, the possibility that some verses which are Mutishabihat, be misinterpreted by some people, and cause mischief. In the same verse, it says, there is a group of people, who are well-grounded in knowledge (راسخون فی العلم) who know its interpretation.
It is a valid question, to ask, who are the well-grounded in knowledge? Are they ordinary Muslims? Or they are a special people, who Allah gave them such knowledge. To find this answer, there are some Hadithes which states, the well-grounded in knowledge is the Prophet and the 12 Imams after Him.
And when I read the Hadithes of the Prophet and the Imams, I see, they had deep knowledge of interpretation. A knowledge that I do not see from ordinary people.

Nothing in the verse points to any imam, i don't know how you interpreted it as if it says
about the 12 imams, maybe you're one.:D

The verse asked us to follow the clear verses and not to wait one imam to explain it
for us, sorry to say you're among those who interprets the quran without knowledge.

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL 3:7
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The verse asked us to follow the clear verses and not to wait one imam to explain it for us, sorry to say you're among those who interprets the quran without knowledge.
What I see happening with the Qur'an is the same thing I see happening with the Bible and I see the same thing happens with the Baha'i Writings. Those who interpret these books believe they understand them correctly and others don't, but who gave them the authority to interpret these scriptures? When someone insists they know what verses mean I see that as an ego problem.

Every Christian I have known believes that they know what the Bible means; but as I tell them, this is logically impossible that all of them are right, because the meanings they assign are different and often contradictory. So who is right?

There are several possibilities: (1) one person is right and everyone else who disagrees with that person is wrong, or (2) nobody is right because nobody understands the real (intended) meaning, or (3) there is more than one meaning of many scriptures, so more than one person is right.

How can anyone say the meaning they assign is correct and the other meanings others assign are wrong? The hundred-dollar question is why people think they are uniquely qualified to interpret scriptures? There are so many different interpretations so nobody can say that only theirs is correct because they cannot prove that it is correct, nor has anyone been given the authority to interpret the scriptures. As such, it is just their personal opinion that they are right and others are wrong.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and He appointed interpreters through His Covenant, so at least Baha’is have some guidance, but even then they have to interpret what the interpreters wrote and what they meant is not always completely clear.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
What I see happening with the Qur'an is the same thing I see happening with the Bible and I see the same thing happens with the Baha'i Writings. Those who interpret these books believe they understand them correctly and others don't, but who gave them the authority to interpret these scriptures? When someone insists they know what verses mean I see that as an ego problem.

Every Christian I have known believes that they know what the Bible means; but as I tell them, this is logically impossible that all of them are right, because the meanings they assign are different and often contradictory. So who is right?

There are several possibilities: (1) one person is right and everyone else who disagrees with that person is wrong, or (2) nobody is right because nobody understands the real (intended) meaning, or (3) there is more than one meaning of many scriptures, so more than one person is right.

How can anyone say the meaning they assign is correct and the other meanings others assign are wrong? The hundred-dollar question is why people think they are uniquely qualified to interpret scriptures? There are so many different interpretations so nobody can say that only theirs is correct because they cannot prove that it is correct, nor has anyone been given the authority to interpret the scriptures. As such, it is just their personal opinion that they are right and others are wrong.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and He appointed interpreters through His Covenant, so at least Baha’is have some guidance, but even then they have to interpret what the interpreters wrote and what they meant is not always completely clear.
According to the Quran the only one who know the truth fully is Allah, we as muslims can not understand the truth like Allah do. But of course the more we study the more we will understand and closer to the truth Allah know we too will become.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
What I see happening with the Qur'an is the same thing I see happening with the Bible and I see the same thing happens with the Baha'i Writings. Those who interpret these books believe they understand them correctly and others don't, but who gave them the authority to interpret these scriptures? When someone insists they know what verses mean I see that as an ego problem.

Every Christian I have known believes that they know what the Bible means; but as I tell them, this is logically impossible that all of them are right, because the meanings they assign are different and often contradictory. So who is right?

There are several possibilities: (1) one person is right and everyone else who disagrees with that person is wrong, or (2) nobody is right because nobody understands the real (intended) meaning, or (3) there is more than one meaning of many scriptures, so more than one person is right.

How can anyone say the meaning they assign is correct and the other meanings others assign are wrong? The hundred-dollar question is why people think they are uniquely qualified to interpret scriptures? There are so many different interpretations so nobody can say that only theirs is correct because they cannot prove that it is correct, nor has anyone been given the authority to interpret the scriptures. As such, it is just their personal opinion that they are right and others are wrong.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and He appointed interpreters through His Covenant, so at least Baha’is have some guidance, but even then they have to interpret what the interpreters wrote and what they meant is not always completely clear.

I see Bahai as a sign of how religions were converted through history and that is done
by people themselves, Bahaullah was born as a Muslim, then the people who followed
him created a new religion related to his name and which is Bahai, so excuse me that
I don't take his sayings seriously.
 
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