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So, which sect/denominatios of Islam is the right one?

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
I believe no division is the right one, but then I ask myself - if no division is right is Islam right? There must be unity for Islam to function as it really should be to have perfect practice of it but I doubt there will ever be one. I simply can't agree with those people who claim infidels should be killed no matter what etc. Even if some denomination overcomes completely it's just a matter of time when it will start to fall apart again.
Salam,
Brother Raahim, I understand how you feel about different sects. Before my main comment, I wanna give you a simple view for Islamic sects.
Islam has got eight top classical sects. Four Sunni sects(Shafei, Hanafi, Maleki and Hanbali) and four Shia sects(12-Imami, 7-Imami, Ismaili and Zaydi). Of course, some of them have got branches which I ignore. They all believe in God, Muhammad(pbuh) and Quran. Though, each of them have their own Hadith collection, they have thousands of common Hadiths. Can you imagine, thousands of same Hadiths! They have a background of 12 to 14 centuries.
Non of them suggest killing innocent people. Non of them.

When we wanna use the word "sect", we must consider only top classical sects which have their own Usul, Kalam, and Hadith collections. We are not allowed to talk about any stupid people who have built their own idiotic and wild sects in the recent centuries. These are the people who know nothing about Quran and Islam.

Main comment:
All eight sects share almost 98% of beliefs, we are all brothers. We love each other. We go to each others mosque and pray with each other. We marry each other.
Now, on 2%:
Which sect is right on that 2%?
The answer is:
It depends on the filed. Here are some fields:
Succession, Rijal of Hadith, Kalam and etc.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Salam,
We are not allowed to talk about any stupid people who have built their own idiotic and wild sects in the recent centuries. These are the people who know nothing about Quran and Islam.

Salaam,

To whom are you referring here, and what/who gives you the right to judge them in this way? And what about other groups/sects in earlier centuries?

Wassalaam
 

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
Salaam,

To whom are you referring here, and what/who gives you the right to judge them in this way? And what about other groups/sects in earlier centuries?

Wassalaam
Wa alaykum as-Salam,

- I'm basically referring to Takfiri and radical Sunni Muslims which are the routs of terrorism and Islam-phobia.
- Their wild, cruel and illogical actions give me the right to pass such judgments.
- Well, Wahhabi-at can be a good choice to talk about. What's your idea about it?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Salam All.

I'll just post a verse from the Quran that I believe is the answer to the subject question:

Quran 6:159 (translation):
Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only left to God; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

My personal interpretation is that Muslims should not divide themselves into sects. Once they do, they would be lost in this life until they stop doing so. If they don't, their answer will be with God in the judgement day.

I hope people see it beyond their religion. Sorry for being in the Dir.
 

Raahim

مكتوب
Salam,
Brother Raahim, I understand how you feel about different sects. Before my main comment, I wanna give you a simple view for Islamic sects.
Islam has got eight top classical sects. Four Sunni sects(Shafei, Hanafi, Maleki and Hanbali) and four Shia sects(12-Imami, 7-Imami, Ismaili and Zaydi). Of course, some of them have got branches which I ignore. They all believe in God, Muhammad(pbuh) and Quran. Though, each of them have their own Hadith collection, they have thousands of common Hadiths. Can you imagine, thousands of same Hadiths! They have a background of 12 to 14 centuries.
Non of them suggest killing innocent people. Non of them.

When we wanna use the word "sect", we must consider only top classical sects which have their own Usul, Kalam, and Hadith collections. We are not allowed to talk about any stupid people who have built their own idiotic and wild sects in the recent centuries. These are the people who know nothing about Quran and Islam.

Main comment:
All eight sects share almost 98% of beliefs, we are all brothers. We love each other. We go to each others mosque and pray with each other. We marry each other.
Now, on 2%:
Which sect is right on that 2%?
The answer is:
It depends on the filed. Here are some fields:
Succession, Rijal of Hadith, Kalam and etc.

Thanks for the good reply. I live in country where there is basically no difference between Muslim communities since it's small (comparing to other European Muslim communities) so I haven't seen relationship between different sects of Islam, I just see general Sunni / Shia relationship in theory. :D
 

Raahim

مكتوب
I have one more question that goes with this topic, what are your opinions on reading the books of different denominations?
I have lots of books from different denominations on basically the same topic, but I wonder if there are others who don't mind reading the literature of different denomination. :D
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Wa alaykum as-Salam,

- I'm basically referring to Takfiri and radical Sunni Muslims which are the routs of terrorism and Islam-phobia.
- Their wild, cruel and illogical actions give me the right to pass such judgments.
- Well, Wahhabi-at can be a good choice to talk about. What's your idea about it?

Salaam,

Thank you for the further clarification, which is the key thing I was asking for here - there are arguably quite a few groups to have arisen in recent centuries, not all of whom are Takfiri or violent in their outlook. So we have to be careful about such general statements.

If by Takfiri, you mean those Muslims who regularly accuse other Muslims of apostasy/of being a disbeliever - and typically accuse any Muslim who does not adhere to their interpretation of Islaam (both of us would it seems fall into this category) as an apostate - and on those grounds a legitimate target for killing in the Name of Allaah - then I do have a general problem with this standpoint. I do however feel that we can (and should) condemn certain beliefs/practices as not being Islaamic (and we will likely disagree on what those practices might be). And it of course remains possible that some of those who claim to be Muslims might in fact not be Muslims (some will be servants of Shaytaan), and I reserve the right to make a Takfiri claim against such people myself. Indeed, your post seems to suggest that there are only 8 legitimate sects of Islaam, and you seem to at least come close to making a Takfiri claim against Takfiri Muslims (and perhaps other Muslims?) yourself! Indeed, I do not adhere to any of the 8 sects you have enumerated myself, so what does that make me in your eyes?

Whilst I disagree (quite fundamentally) with many of the beliefs and practices of 'Takfiri' groups, and indeed of the Wahhabi movement, there is a certain logic to their thinking.

Finally, what is your opinion of the Khurramiyya, ʿAlawīyyah and Murshidiyya?

Wassalaam
 

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
I have one more question that goes with this topic, what are your opinions on reading the books of different denominations?
I have lots of books from different denominations on basically the same topic, but I wonder if there are others who don't mind reading the literature of different denomination. :D
1- Brother, what's the purpose of your studying? Do you wanna find out which denomination is right on each field?
As I said, each sect has got something precious to say in a few fields, however, you need to be aware of only important fields. Here are two important fields:
a- Imamah(Leader ship system of Muslim society)
b- Rijal of Haidth (The people from whom Hadiths are narrated; the question is, who is reliable source?)
On this issue, the books of Muhammad al-Tijani, a Sunni scholar who converted to 12-Imami-Shia after years of research, is suggested(Six books, starting with, "then I was guided").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Tijani
Also debate books between Shi'ah and Sunni scholars, like Pishavar nights, it's ten nights of debate between top scholars.(Do not use internet or youtube for debates, use only top sources:D)
I think you can find all the mentioned books in English and most of them online or with E-books; thousands of Sunni Muslims converted to Shi'a after debates and when books were publishedo_O.

2- If you are looking for precious books, I suggest you three of them. Do not miss these gifts;)
a) Nahj al-Balagh, the precious Hadiths and sayings of Ali(a.s.), the 1st Imam of Shi'a Muslims(and of course the 4th Caliph of Sunni brothers).
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings

b) Ghurar al-Hikam, the short sayings of Ali(a.s.). This one may be be easy for you, the one above is a lil bit heavy for a beginner:)
http://www.al-islam.org/ghurar-al-hikam-wa-durar-al-kalim-exalted-aphorisms-and-pearls-speech

c) Sahifa-al-kamilah-Sajjadiyya, the prayers and supplications of Imam as-Sajjad, the 4th Imam of Shi'ah Muslims. It will teach you how to speak God, what and how to ask(pray for me when you are readying that:D)
http://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-sajjadiyya-imam-zain-ul-abideen/1-praise-god
 

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
I have one more question that goes with this topic, what are your opinions on reading the books of different denominations?
I have lots of books from different denominations on basically the same topic, but I wonder if there are others who don't mind reading the literature of different denomination. :D
I also searched for you:
-Pishavar nights, debate book:
http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar-ni...sion-thursday-night#relationship-holy-prophet

-Then I was guided, by Muhammad al-Tijani:
http://www.al-islam.org/then-i-was-guided-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

-Prophet Muhammad(pbuh):
Tell the people about my sayings, even if its one word only!
-Prophet Muhammad(pbuh):
I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its door, who seeks for knowledge must enter from the door.
 

Raahim

مكتوب
I also searched for you:
-Pishavar nights, debate book:
http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar-ni...sion-thursday-night#relationship-holy-prophet

-Then I was guided, by Muhammad al-Tijani:
http://www.al-islam.org/then-i-was-guided-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

-Prophet Muhammad(pbuh):
Tell the people about my sayings, even if its one word only!
-Prophet Muhammad(pbuh):
I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its door, who seeks for knowledge must enter from the door.

Thank you for the share, I'll take a look at them. :D
 

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
Thank you for the further clarification, which is the key thing I was asking for here - there are arguably quite a few groups to have arisen in recent centuries, not all of whom are Takfiri or violent in their outlook. So we have to be careful about such general statements.
Salam,
Sorry to be so late on response, my PC is still down!
Yes, of course brother. What I said was just in response of another person and it was not a general argument. I admit it could be interpreted as a general argument.
 

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
If by Takfiri, you mean those Muslims who regularly accuse other Muslims of apostasy/of being a disbeliever - and typically accuse any Muslim who does not adhere to their interpretation of Islaam (both of us would it seems fall into this category) as an apostate - and on those grounds a legitimate target for killing in the Name of Allaah - then I do have a general problem with this standpoint. I do however feel that we can (and should) condemn certain beliefs/practices as not being Islaamic (and we will likely disagree on what those practices might be). And it of course remains possible that some of those who claim to be Muslims might in fact not be Muslims (some will be servants of Shaytaan), and I reserve the right to make a Takfiri claim against such people myself. Indeed, your post seems to suggest that there are only 8 legitimate sects of Islaam, and you seem to at least come close to making a Takfiri claim against Takfiri Muslims (and perhaps other Muslims?) yourself! Indeed, I do not adhere to any of the 8 sects you have enumerated myself, so what does that make me in your eyes?

Whilst I disagree (quite fundamentally) with many of the beliefs and practices of 'Takfiri' groups, and indeed of the Wahhabi movement, there is a certain logic to their thinking.

Finally, what is your opinion of the Khurramiyya, ʿAlawīyyah and Murshidiyya?
Brother, I believe that if a person says , "There is no God, but Allah and Muhammad(pbuh) is His messenger" is Muslim. If performing Takfir, in your definition, is regarding a Muslim, as defined above, a non-Muslim, I should let you know that I never perform Takfir.
I'm not sure how you define "Takfir" and not sure how you reserve the right to perform "Takfir" on some other Muslims and how you accuse me of performing Takfir.
On the other hand, you need to know that when I say, "Islam has got 8 top classical sects" It doesnt mean that I reject or denounce the rest sects. No, No..In fact, I've got my own definition of "top" and "classical" and of course, there are many sects that I havent done enough research on them. I can talk about Alawiyya for a couple of lines, however It doesnt mean that I know what exactly Alawiyya is. It took me months just to study about Baha'iyyat, Babiyyat and Christianity. I'm well aware that you know, analyzing all the 8 sects and their branches takes lots of time.
You are my brother, there is no need to perform Takfir on you.:D
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Brother, I believe that if a person says , "There is no God, but Allah and Muhammad(pbuh) is His messenger" is Muslim. If performing Takfir, in your definition, is regarding a Muslim, as defined above, a non-Muslim, I should let you know that I never perform Takfir.
I'm not sure how you define "Takfir" and not sure how you reserve the right to perform "Takfir" on some other Muslims and how you accuse me of performing Takfir.
On the other hand, you need to know that when I say, "Islam has got 8 top classical sects" It doesnt mean that I reject or denounce the rest sects. No, No..In fact, I've got my own definition of "top" and "classical" and of course, there are many sects that I havent done enough research on them. I can talk about Alawiyya for a couple of lines, however It doesnt mean that I know what exactly Alawiyya is. It took me months just to study about Baha'iyyat, Babiyyat and Christianity. I'm well aware that you know, analyzing all the 8 sects and their branches takes lots of time.
You are my brother, there is no need to perform Takfir on you.:D

Salaam,

I think there is a little more to being a Muslim than saying the Shahaadah. Anyone can say these words, the proof is in their actions - ultimately, whether they are making every (reasonable) effort to submit to Allaah, following the example of the Holy Prophet (saws). Now, none of us is perfect, we all makes mistakes, both in our understanding and in our practice, sometimes without being aware of what we are doing, and sometimes being fully aware. So we have 'good' Muslims and 'bad' Muslims.
And if someone says these words to me, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I will of course take them at their word. However, if someone says these words, or simpler still, claims to be a Muslim, but in all their actions they are pretty clearly a hypocrite, a follower of another religion or a servant of Shaytaan, that is where I reserve the right to declare them to be a non-Muslim or an apostate. This is not something to be taken lightly - to declare a Muslim to be a non-Muslim is of course haraam. But we must be very careful about who we take as our allies or friends.

I didn't accuse you of being a Takfiri yourself, just of coming close to that in your references to 'Takfiri' Muslims as knowing nothing about the Qur'aan and Islaam (I would argue they do know something of the Qur'aan and Islaam, although as I have already said, I disagree with them pretty fundamentally on a number of different levels) and to only 8 sects of Islaam (thus appearing to reject other sects as not being part of Islaam). I am glad to hear that you recognise more than 8 sects of Islaam :)

So what's your view of the 'Alawīyyah, based on what you know of them so far?

Wassalaam
 

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
Salaam,

I think there is a little more to being a Muslim than saying the Shahaadah. Anyone can say these words, the proof is in their actions - ultimately, whether they are making every (reasonable) effort to submit to Allaah, following the example of the Holy Prophet (saws). Now, none of us is perfect, we all makes mistakes, both in our understanding and in our practice, sometimes without being aware of what we are doing, and sometimes being fully aware. So we have 'good' Muslims and 'bad' Muslims.
And if someone says these words to me, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I will of course take them at their word. However, if someone says these words, or simpler still, claims to be a Muslim, but in all their actions they are pretty clearly a hypocrite, a follower of another religion or a servant of Shaytaan, that is where I reserve the right to declare them to be a non-Muslim or an apostate. This is not something to be taken lightly - to declare a Muslim to be a non-Muslim is of course haraam. But we must be very careful about who we take as our allies or friends
Wa alaykum as-Salam,
Well, according to the teachings of my sect, any one who says Shahadatain is a Muslim, even if he/she commits so many sins and wrong actions. We dispute on being "Mu'min" or not. Some of our scholars make difference between being Muslim and Mu'min. Hence, if a person says Shahadatain and commits all wrong actions, he is a Muslim but not a Mu'min.
 

Raahim

مكتوب
Wa alaykum as-Salam,
Well, according to the teachings of my sect, any one who says Shahadatain is a Muslim, even if he/she commits so many sins and wrong actions. We dispute on being "Mu'min" or not. Some of our scholars make difference between being Muslim and Mu'min. Hence, if a person says Shahadatain and commits all wrong actions, he is a Muslim but not a Mu'min.

I agree with this, but I think non-Muslims would get confused a little if we started using Mu'min more often to refer to good Muslims. :D
 

Yasin-shalal

Yasin-shalal
I didn't accuse you of being a Takfiri yourself, just of coming close to that in your references to 'Takfiri' Muslims as knowing nothing about the Qur'aan and Islaam (I would argue they do know something of the Qur'aan and Islaam, although as I have already said, I disagree with them pretty fundamentally on a number of different levels) and to only 8 sects of Islaam (thus appearing to reject other sects as not being part of Islaam). I am glad to hear that you recognise more than 8 sects of Islaam :)

So what's your view of the 'Alawīyyah, based on what you know of them so far?

Wassalaam
Well, as I said I havent done an academic research on Alawiyyah. Here are some of what I know about them:
-The foundation of their sect and their beliefs are based on the love for Ali(a.s.).
- I suppose they have got some branches, not sure; as if some of them regard Ali(a.s.) as God, just like what Ghulat do. Some thing like what Christians do about Christ(pbuh).
- They believe the key of surviving from Hell is the love of Ali(a.s) and Ahl-al-Bayt of Muhammad(pbuh).
-They use "Ya Ali" in their greetings.
-....
I'm not sure about what I'm writing, hence I dont continue. I could have searched before writing, however, I didnt do it as you used "So far". :)

Whats your sect?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Well, as I said I havent done an academic research on Alawiyyah. Here are some of what I know about them:
-The foundation of their sect and their beliefs are based on the love for Ali(a.s.).
- I suppose they have got some branches, not sure; as if some of them regard Ali(a.s.) as God, just like what Ghulat do. Some thing like what Christians do about Christ(pbuh).
- They believe the key of surviving from Hell is the love of Ali(a.s) and Ahl-al-Bayt of Muhammad(pbuh).
-They use "Ya Ali" in their greetings.
-....
I'm not sure about what I'm writing, hence I dont continue. I could have searched before writing, however, I didnt do it as you used "So far". :)

Whats your sect?

Salaam,

So from what you know of them so far, you would consider the 'Alawīyyah to be Muslims?

My sect is the sect of the Holy Prophet (saws). :) But a number of my beliefs are at variance with 'mainstream' Islaamic beliefs. There are some similarities between my beliefs and those of the Khurramiyya, ʿAlawīyyah and Murshidiyya, hence my questions about what you think about these groups (one very important difference between my beliefs and the beliefs of some of them is the extreme veneration some of them have for Ali (ra)).

Wassalaam
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Salam All.

I'll just post a verse from the Quran that I believe is the answer to the subject question:

Quran 6:159 (translation):
Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only left to God; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

My personal interpretation is that Muslims should not divide themselves into sects. Once they do, they would be lost in this life until they stop doing so. If they don't, their answer will be with God in the judgement day.

Why does there have to be a right one???
 
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