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So, when all is said and done this is not going to work

Discussion in 'Vajrayana DIR' started by Jainarayan, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    I have done some more reading, checking out other sites and found that Hinduism in any of its sampradayas will not mesh with the core of Vajrayana Buddhism, intitation and empowerment or not. Not that I didn't believe anyone here, but you have to help yourself. God helps those who help themselves (and God help those who get caught helping themselves! :D).

    What I read stressed the importance of the empowerment to keep things in check. One of the main issues was taking refuge, which I read is incompatible with Hinduism. I was told do not use the vajra and bell in sadhana. :no: That is high tantric practice. The bell is OK to use in regular sadhana and puja, but the vajra should only be kept as a decorative artifact. Apparently the (Hindu) tantra that Feuerstein writes about in The Path to Ecstacy is quite different than Vajrayana tantra. He says in the book that Hinduism became tantric at its core when the Vedic rituals were abandoned in favor of deity puja and puranic Hinduism. Whether most Hindus know it or not, they pracitce tantra, according to Feuerstein. Much different than Vajrayana, it seems.

    Yet there's no apparent problem with venerating the buddhas and bodhisattvas as a Hindu if I so choose; Green Tara, for example is simply another aspect of Mother Goddess, as is Guanyin, Maa Kali, Maa Durga, Mahalakshmi. The Buddhist deities have aspects and characteristics that I think complement and supplement those of the Hindu deities. Manjushri, for example, cuts through ignorance with his sword; Medicine Buddha equates to Lord Dhanvantari. But I won't be performing any kind of sadhana or puja to the buddhas and bodhisattvas other than prayers of supplication and praise, as I do in my regular sadhana. My 'deity yoga' will be to Vishnu only, chanting His name and meditating on Him.

    I'm sorry to make everyone jump through hoops in explaining, but maybe other readers have learned things too. :shrug:
     
  2. Shuddhasattva

    Shuddhasattva Well-Known Member

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    These conclusions from 1 book from a midranked scholar (Feueurstein) seem premature to me.

    Actually, Hindu & Vajrayana tantra have the same root.
     
  3. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    No, not all from the same book. I've been bouncing around. Feuerstein acknowledges early on that Hindu and Vajrayana tantra are related and have the same roots. But what I picked up in my "travels" may be what we talked about before... the secrecy and keeping arcane knowledge under wraps.

    There were a lot of writings about Vajrayana sadhana and how things can get dangerous without empowerment and a teacher, and so on. It is all pretty confusing. You once asked me how I would work in Vishnu/Krishna being my ishta-devata with meditating on one of the buddhas; I thought I knew but I'm not so sure about that now.

    I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. ;)
     
  4. Shuddhasattva

    Shuddhasattva Well-Known Member

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    You have to understand the climate that vajrayana books are published in; the Tibetan institutional synthesis under the exile government [gelug] still has enormous control over the translation & publication process, and aside from direct control, puts out this miasma of fear, etc.

    External gurus aren't supposed to be other than self; an external guru is validated because they are an external voice and pointing-out of the quasi-internal-but-universal 'self.'

    But what I don't see is why Vajrayana is not compatible with worship of Vishnu.

    You may wish to look up vaishnava-sahajiya & pancharatra.
     
  5. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    So it's really that bad, huh? I know you've repeatedly expressed "displeasure" (I'm being low-key :p) with HHDL and the TGE.

    Whew! That went over my head at 35,000 feet, but I will accept it (but if there's a quiz on it tomorrow, it has to be open web page :D).

    This is what I initially thought, especially after the explanations in my 'My Apologies' thread wherein we all talked about Adi-Buddha, mandala and Ishvara really all being the same.

    Yes, thank you... I've been trying to think of different search terms to find a compatibility or incompatibility explanation.
     
  6. Shuddhasattva

    Shuddhasattva Well-Known Member

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    What I mean is... guru/lama properly is not someone you unthinkably obey "in return for" tantric initiations & instruction.

    The role is to point out the mind of the student, operating most perfectly as an external mirror to the internal self.

    What I'm getting at is - your "go it alone" approach isn't incompatible, and you needn't be paranoid about lamas and gurus and whatnot.
     
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  7. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Ah! gotcha now. Thanks. :)
     
  8. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    "You were right... tell your sister... you were right... " (my poor Anakin Skywalker death scene :facepalm:).

    Seriously, you pointed me to something, doing more reading. I know reading can trap one into a web of confusion. I found that there's really no problem, being non-initiated or non-empowered in doing a short and simple sadhana to Avalokiteshvara and Green Tara in Vaishnavism. In Vajrayana, Manjushri is the consort of Saraswati... they cut through ignorance and give the gift of speech and knowledge. The sadhanas I found are nothing more than praises and supplications for enlightenment and help, not unlike praying to the Hindu deities. After all, they seem to be expanded versions of the deities, all emanating from Narayana.

    My question is about including a few prayers to Medicine Buddha. He seems to be the equivalent of Lord Dhanvantari. Is it all right, or does he require empowerment? I'm thinking no empowerment is necessary to use that prayer, though I don't know about the mantra.

    I pay homage to the Medicine Buddha of Lapis Lazuli Light, the Victorious One who is equally compassionate to all, the mere hearing of whose name removes all the sufferings of the evil realms, and who clears away the diseases of the three poisons. May the victorious Tathagata, three Arhats, the fully perfected Medicine Buddha, grant the supreme and ordinary attainments to all limitless sentient beings and me. Through this virtue, may I quickly attain the stage of the Medicine Buddha and establish each and every sentient being on his stage of enlightenment!

    By recalling the name and murmuring the powerful Healing Mantra of the Healing Buddha, King of all Physicians, may those beings that encounter physical and mental sicknesses gain strength to tolerate the pain and soothe the sufferings of others! By shunning the act of harming others as a blessing of the Healing Buddha and unconditionally nursing the sick, aged and poor, may all beings emulate the compassionate acts of the Bodhisattvas!

    Namo bhagavate bhaishajya guru vaidūrya prabha rājāya tathāgatāya arhate samyak sambuddhāya tadyathā om bhaishajye bhaishajye bhaishajya samudgate svāhā
     
  9. Shuddhasattva

    Shuddhasattva Well-Known Member

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    You have to wonder about where these empowerments are held to come from or go to when all is empty and selfless.
     
  10. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    That is an excellent point, which I think answers my question. Perhaps it goes back to the discussions about secrecy.
     
  11. Deva758

    Deva758 Member

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    The guru is a representation of the enlightened mind - we all have this capability so it is us as well. In other words, there is no separation of the guru from yourself.

    I have only been studying and practicing in the Nyigma school of Buddhism for a little over 5 years, but I would be happy to try to answer any questions, if I know the answers!
     
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  12. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    dear prabhu ji's


    it has never proved incompatable to me , in fact my vajrayana past has only enhanced my ability to take to vaisnava serva .and very much helped my understanding .
     
  13. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    I'm beginning to see they are not incompatible, despite some of the readings I've seen. Everything is Vishnu, everyone is Vishnu. I say prayers to Green Tārā (who may have evolved from Durga), the Twenty-One Tārās, Chenrezig, Medicine Buddha, Shakyamuni, Manjushri just like I say prayers to Saraswati (associated with Manjushri), Hanuman, Narasimha and so on. All different aspects or emanantions of Narayana, as I posited early on... then got confused. :facepalm:
     
  14. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    jai jai , jainarayan :namaste

    although sometimes it is all to easy to read too much , and possible to get rather confused ,

    it is a symptom of desire , and as the profound teachings suggest that we eliminate the cause of suffering , ..... which simply stem from such desire , .....

    and concider that our lives are short , ..... and if you concider that one might be better to perfect ones practice of one sadhana rather than to never fully master many ?

    which deity or yidam would you choose ?

    only one !
    the others you may worship , even ask for blessings ,

    but choose one , which would it be ?
     
  15. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Something I said elsewhere is that I have such a backlog of books, I start a few at a time, and by the time I get around to the first one again, I forgot what I was reading and have to start all over again. :facepalm: It's because I want to learn things, but it's true you can get confused.

    True... quality rather than quantity. Less is more.

    Btw, is that Avalokiteshvara/Chenrezig in your avi?
     
  16. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    jampal , manjushri :namaste
     
  17. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Ok, I couldn't make out the sword. I have a standing Manjushri & a tiny seated one. I have collected some murthis of the Buddhas & bodhisattvas for the shrine.
     
  18. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    I particularly like manjushri shown with hands in dharmachakra mudra ,
    many mistakenly think the form holding the sword aloft to be wrathfull and forget or fail to understand that he is a bodhisattva turning the wheel of law and miss the true meaning of the perfection of wisdom sutra being accompanied or counter ballanced by the sword .

    a timely reminder that the wisdom held in the perfection of wisdom sutra is not merely to be understood interlectualy but to be practiced and that such ignorance should be cut to the core .
     
  19. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
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    Yes, the sword is cutting through ignorance. He is a counterpart/consort of Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge, after all. ;) That's what I first read about him and the other buddhas and bodhisattvas... their non-wrathful forms. I don't know anything about their wrathful forms.
     
  20. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    now this is a subject well worth reflecting upon the true meaning of wisdom and ignorance , then it is possible to understand the function af wrathfull beings

    [​IMG]
    yamatanka , ........ both terible and splendid :namaste
     
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