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So what's wrong with UKIP?

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
To be honest with you, I am a bit worried by articles like this:

Nigel Farage 'used N-word to dismiss black vote': New race row hits Ukip | Daily Mail Online

And yes... I know it's the Daily Mail. But it doesn't help and I do wonder if Nigel the people's man who I would happily have a pint with is hiding some other less than pleasant views.

Daily Mail

There's your problem. Innocent until proven guilty, I say. Also, this is an article from May and was dismissed as "clutching at the straws".
I find it healthy to read from several sources and form my own opinions instead of parroting the left all the time. And this is from 7 months ago! I recall David Cameron letting a few swear words slip a while ago, also.

Think what you want about Nigel, but more and more of the British people are starting to find common ground with him: which is a first in politics.[/QUOTE]
 
I'd say the lack of political experience and the unusually high number of buffoons in a single party. Although no doubt 70% of the hate towards UKIP is borne unfairly out of the tabloids.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
UKIP appears to have a problem with science..


Hi....
Many of my neighbours installed solar-voltaic panels on their roof-tops, spending up to £20,000 because they believed in the deal that the Gov was offering them. And then, out of the blue, their returns were halved......

If UKIP had done that it would be headlines, all over.
I'm beginning to think that UKIP's momentum is not slowing, and the GE is getting close now.

I wonder how many seats they will get....... ?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Hi....
Many of my neighbours installed solar-voltaic panels on their roof-tops, spending up to £20,000 because they believed in the deal that the Gov was offering them. And then, out of the blue, their returns were halved......

If UKIP had done that it would be headlines, all over.
I'm beginning to think that UKIP's momentum is not slowing, and the GE is getting close now.

I wonder how many seats they will get....... ?
Unless support rises dramatically they'll find it hard to win many seats. FPTP makes life difficult for smaller parties.

EDIT

BBC NEWS | Election 2010 | Results | United Kingdom - National Results

As an example of the disproportionality of the electoral system the Tories got less than twice votes of the Lib Dems in 2010 yet won almost six times as many seats. For comparison though, the Lib Dems got 57 seats on 23% of the votes. UKIP seem to be in the 20 percent region in opinion polls so maybe as many as 50 seats.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Unless support rises dramatically they'll find it hard to win many seats. FPTP makes life difficult for smaller parties.

EDIT

BBC NEWS | Election 2010 | Results | United Kingdom - National Results

As an example of the disproportionality of the electoral system the Tories got less than twice votes of the Lib Dems in 2010 yet won almost six times as many seats. For comparison though, the Lib Dems got 57 seats on 23% of the votes. UKIP seem to be in the 20 percent region in opinion polls so maybe as many as 50 seats.

Good answer.........
I still don't know why the people voted to keep FPTP in the voting referendum. I wonder if the electorate actually knew what it was voting for.

We are stuck with it now.
30+ seats would throw the big parties into hysteria, I reckon, so that should 'do 'it'
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
UKIP appears to have a problem with science.

UKIP pledges to ban climate change lessons in schools - Index on Censorship | Index on Censorship

Ukip's energy and climate policies under the spotlight | Bob Ward | Environment | The Guardian

Roger Helmer, Ukip’s European parliament leader and energy spokesman, has controversially said climate change is a “myth” and that “fossil fuels are the future” of British energy policy.

We are always told that climate change is the top priority and those who don't think that it is are lunatics. I have, countless of times, said to people that I don't think it should be a top priority--and have thus been met with a great hysteria about such a statement.
Tens of millions of people have been forced into fuel poverty, manufacturers being driven away because of complicated carbon taxes, and of course Asian countries and now America are exploiting cheap fossil alternatives which means that our industry cannot compete, globally, with these countries. Oh and let's not forget the wind turbines that pepper the shorelines and countrysides of Europe today. We can go on about "green growth", but the factual consensus says that we are facing an industrial massacre.
And can I just say that the Arctic ice caps have actually increased 1.7 million km in size over the last couple of years. Even trees are growing at an accelerated rate due to global warming--as concluded by scientists conclude in a peer-reviewed study.[NATURE.COM]
Don't you understand that the Earth randomly cools and warms intermittently?




Chasing the financial sector for funds does not suggest a radical break from business as usual. If UKIP has the same set of sponsors as the other parties it will deliver the same set of policies.

Are you implying that Labour, the Conservatives, and Lib Dems don't do this either? Hahahaha!

I'd say the lack of political experience and the unusually high number of buffoons in a single party. Although no doubt 70% of the hate towards UKIP is borne unfairly out of the tabloids.

I do agree that Nigel Farage seems to be the only prominent member of the part who is capable of becoming Prime Minister. Let's also keep in mind that UKIP is, relatively, a very new party in comparison to LibLabCon and it will take time for more UKIP members to gain familiarity in the public. And, actually, more and more UKIP members are starting to pop up on our T.V. sets a bit more often. People like Suzanne Evans, Douglas Carswell, and Mark Reckless, for example. And, as I have said many times, the other parties also have dodgy characters among their ranks and it is just unfair to single out UKIP on matters such as these. It's going to take time... or not... we'll just have to wait for May.


The Guardian and now the Mirror? Oh Lord, Jaiket, you must broaden your horizons and find out the real facts for yourself!

When he gave that speech, he was a Conservative, and a lot of Conservatives were talking that way about the NHS. And he was talking about the £xxx,xxx,xxx's that is wastefully spent on middle management within the NHS.
What you will now see, Jaiket, is garbage thrown at UKIP coming up to this general election, and let's be clear, UKIP had a massive debate about the NHS, like a party should when forming policy, and they will leave it free at the point of use.

The left are literally digging for sh*t against UKIP, when actually and ironically, it was Labour that privatised a lot of the NHS through PFI deals!

Also, news broke yesterday, but was lost amid the defection, UKIP were going to pledge an extra £3bn/year to the NHS over Labour.[/QUOTE]
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
We are always told that....
Waffle.

But this week UKIP Education spokesman MEP Derek Clark has said the party will go even further. Clark told Index on Censorship:


We will still ban Al Gore’s video for use in schools if I’ve got anything to do with it. I will not have much opposition within the party. It is, of course, not just this video which needs banning; all teaching of global warming being caused in any way by carbon dioxide emissions must also be banned. It just is not happening.”


This is first rate, Sarah Palin-esque, idiocy. It lends further credibilty to the claims that UKIP is run by and for the swivel-eyed fruitbats that used to live on the fringes of the Conservative party.

Ultimatum said:
Are you implying that Labour, the Conservatives, and Lib Dems don't do this either? Hahahaha!
The appeal to hypocrisy is generally accepted as fallacious argument.

As the wording of my post might have suggested to you, I am implying that UKIP is chasing the same sources of funding as those parties. This would concern me if I were a UKIP member.

Ultimatum said:
The Guardian and now the Mirror? Oh Lord, Jaiket, you must broaden your horizons and find out the real facts for yourself!
If you could only focus a little of that critical thought in the direction of UKIP we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't care that this moron went from Conservative to UKIP (like everyone else who counts in UKIP). He's an ideological reprobate that any party should be embarrassed to host.

Ultimatum said:
The left are literally digging for sh*t against UKIP, when actually and ironically, it was Labour that privatised a lot of the NHS through PFI deals!
If you had started a thread on what's wrong with Labour I would have obliged you. As it is this one is about UKIP and so far we have seen that they are scientifically illiterate, chasing the city's cash, and opposed to the NHS. The poor man's Conservative party.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
t UKIP is run by and for the swivel-eyed fruitbats that used to live on the fringes of the Conservative party.

Careful, you're showing your lefty political illiteracy again. I have run over this in previous posts, yet you are still not facing up to the facts and going with the tribalistic commentary.
I do agree with the notion that it's ridiculous to scrap teaching about global warming.

However, my position on the carbon taxes remain unchanged.

The appeal to hypocrisy is generally accepted as fallacious argument.

As the wording of my post might have suggested to you, I am implying that UKIP is chasing the same sources of funding as those parties. This would concern me if I were a UKIP member.

One either makes a change or one does not. It is like Nigel Farage sitting in the European Parliament. He does not need to be there (in terms of contribution to "democratic" procedures"), but he does need to be there at the same time, to spread the message of EU-scepticism through a big platform.
UKIP now face an extremely well-funded Conservative and Labour party. They need to keep up to make a change. They have to keep up with the bigger parties in terms of campaigning in the next 100 days leading to the general election.

If you could only focus a little of that critical thought in the direction of UKIP we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I quite clearly rebuked the point.

I don't care that this moron went from Conservative to UKIP (like everyone else who counts in UKIP). He's an ideological reprobate that any party should be embarrassed to host.

He no longer holds this opinion. He has changed parties and UKIP is clear on a free-at-the-point of use health service. Innocent until proven guilty.

If you had started a thread on what's wrong with Labour I would have obliged you. As it is this one is about UKIP and so far we have seen that they are scientifically illiterate, chasing the city's cash, and opposed to the NHS. The poor man's Conservative party.

"Poor Man's Conservative Party"
You, despite my previous posts, have failed utterly to understand what UKIP stands for. And you keep making out that it is a "Conservative" party. It certainly is not. If you actually look at the demographic of UKIP voters for yourself, you will find that 1/3 are ex-Labour, 1/3 are ex-Tory, 20% are people who have never voted before, and the rest are ex-other parties. You must clear away your tribalistic political views. Oh, and thanks for calling me a poor man.

"Scientifically Illiterate"
You obviously have no idea about global competitiveness, either. Perhaps you should pick up an economics textbook.
I don't know if you know this but our aluminium smelters have closed down, steel production has relocated to India, and why the cement industry is (pun intended) crumbling. Why? Because we have a ridiculous carbon tax pressed on companies that, through a renewable energy scheme, adds 20% to the energy bill of companies than if we had a free market.
And whilst you're banging on about global warming, China and India are building a total of 800 coal-fired power stations. You can spout all you want, but business, industry, and manufacturing don't want to hear what you are saying, Jaiket.

"Chasing the city's cash"
If you were running a political party that was gaining traction but needed funding in the run-up to an election, would you just think: "Ach, I'm going to not do anything at all, not ask for any funding, let the other parties fly aheads with expensive campaigns" or would you actually, perhaps not to everyone's content, ask for funding? Sometimes it's okay to ask, if, in the long run, it's going to pay off.
I would certainly do the same.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
However, my position on the carbon taxes remain unchanged.
That's nice. The point I made (in this thread where you have invited people to comment on what they find wrong with UKIP) is that there is a prominent member of UKIP espousing outright climate change denial. And we both know he isn't the only one.

If you would like to educate me as to the failing of carbon taxation I would happily read your sources and commentary.

Ultimatum said:
One either makes a change or one does not. It is like Nigel Farage sitting in the European Parliament. He does not need to be there (in terms of contribution to "democratic" procedures"), but he does need to be there at the same time, to spread the message of EU-scepticism through a big platform.
UKIP now face an extremely well-funded Conservative and Labour party. They need to keep up to make a change. They have to keep up with the bigger parties in terms of campaigning in the next 100 days leading to the general election.
My point is this:

How do you expect UKIP to make a change when they are funded by the same people who fund the current mess?

Ultimatum said:
He no longer holds this opinion.
I don't believe this for a second.

Ultimatum said:
"Poor Man's Conservative Party"
You, despite my previous posts, have failed utterly to understand what UKIP stands for. And you keep making out that it is a "Conservative" party. It certainly is not. If you actually look at the demographic of UKIP voters for yourself, you will find that 1/3 are ex-Labour, 1/3 are ex-Tory, 20% are people who have never voted before, and the rest are ex-other parties. You must clear away your tribalistic political views. Oh, and thanks for calling me a poor man.
Are you unaware that UKIP is run by ex-Tories and funded by Tory donors?

I've read all about the demographics of UKIP voters. Have you seen the polls on who UKIP voters would like to see in a coalition after the GE? Starts withs a C and ends in onservatives.

Ultimatum said:
"Scientifically Illiterate"
You obviously have no idea about global competitiveness, either. Perhaps you should pick up an economics textbook.
I don't know if you know this but our aluminium smelters have closed down, steel production has relocated to India, and why the cement industry is (pun intended) crumbling. Why? Because we have a ridiculous carbon tax pressed on companies that, through a renewable energy scheme, adds 20% to the energy bill of companies than if we had a free market.
And whilst you're banging on about global warming, China and India are building a total of 800 coal-fired power stations. You can spout all you want, but business, industry, and manufacturing don't want to hear what you are saying, Jaiket.
First, when I want to read junk/voodoo/ideology I'll pick up an economics textbook until then I'll stick to science.

Second, I'll be happy to read your sources on carbon taxation.

Third, I don't control India and China's energy policy.

Ultimatum said:
"Chasing the city's cash"
If you were running a political party that was gaining traction but needed funding in the run-up to an election, would you just think: "Ach, I'm going to not do anything at all, not ask for any funding, let the other parties fly aheads with expensive campaigns" or would you actually, perhaps not to everyone's content, ask for funding? Sometimes it's okay to ask, if, in the long run, it's going to pay off.
I would certainly do the same.
Good luck with that.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I checked out their website once. It told me I should fear outsiders, love the rich for all their hard work and contributions, hate the poor who are parasites, and worship money. Which one shouldn't I have a problem with?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I checked out their website once. It told me I should fear outsiders, love the rich for all their hard work and contributions, hate the poor who are parasites, and worship money. Which one shouldn't I have a problem with?
To be fair, the message has been drastically altered in the last couple of years.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
That's nice. The point I made (in this thread where you have invited people to comment on what they find wrong with UKIP) is that there is a prominent member of UKIP espousing outright climate change denial. And we both know he isn't the only one.

Fine.

If you would like to educate me as to the failing of carbon taxation I would happily read your sources and commentary.

So you agree with my opinion of needing to get rid of the carbon tax for the sake of our business/manufacturing/industry staying here and staying competitive?

My point is this:

How do you expect UKIP to make a change when they are funded by the same people who fund the current mess?

Today, a criminal will be claiming benefits from the state--from the taxpayer.
There will be another person, who genuinely cannot work and has no criminal record, who will, also, be claiming benefits from the state--from the taxpayer.

Do you believe it fair to look down upon the person who cannot work and is claiming genuinely, when there is a criminal somewhere else claiming for the same source?

I don't believe this for a second.

Any evidence to back up that claim?

Are you unaware that UKIP is run by ex-Tories and funded by Tory donors?

Does it matter if they're ex-Conservative if their opinions have changed? I'm an ex-Conservative voter, also, but I disagree with and really do not like the Conservatives. My opinions have completely changed since joining as a UKIP member.
One's opinion can be changed with discussion and debate, you know.

I've read all about the demographics of UKIP voters. Have you seen the polls on who UKIP voters would like to see in a coalition after the GE? Starts withs a C and ends in onservatives.

UKIP could, possibly, form a coalition with the Conservatives at the next G.E. if David Cameron would agree on a nationwide referendum on EU membership. The terms and timing would have to be absolutely right, however.
There is no chance with Labour, as they are pro-mass immigration.

[/QUOTE]First, when I want to read junk/voodoo/ideology I'll pick up an economics textbook until then I'll stick to science.[/QUOTE]

Okay..

Second, I'll be happy to read your sources on carbon taxation.

Well, it's quite simple economics, really. Raise taxes substantially, money flows to areas with a lower tax rate. Much like what is happening to our manufacturing.

Third, I don't control India and China's energy policy.

Exactly the point. Most Asian countries are not going to care about CO2 emissions.



I would hate to see what it was before then, because I don't even think it's been a year since I first looked at their website.

I don't know what websites you're visiting!
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
So you agree with my opinion of needing to get rid of the carbon tax for the sake of our business/manufacturing/industry staying here and staying competitive?
I'm sceptical bit willing to read what you might suggest on the matter.

I found a report by PricewaterhouseCoopers, I haven't had time to read it all yet but as far as I can see there is a single paragraph on green taxes. Pages 28 and 29 have a run down of key sectors and not once are green taxes or carbon taxation mentioned as a major challenge.

On page 24 you'll find this:

So if the UK is competitive in terms of worker productivity growth, why has it been losing
manufacturing jobs faster than its European partners, and why has its balance of trade with
the Eurozone been deteriorating? The answer to this conundrum seems to be that countries
like Germany and the Netherlands have been able to upgrade (and therefore retain) a greater
proportion of their manufacturing jobs than Britain has. Combine this with Britain’s worsening
balance of trade, and the conclusion appears to be that the scope of manufacturing activity
and of the manufacturing value chain in which Britain has a genuine competitive edge is
dangerously narrow.


Elsewhere you'll find several reference to British industries lack of R&D being a major issue in depleting our stock of manafacturing jobs.

http://www.pwc.co.uk/assets/pdf/ukmanufacturing-300309.pdf

Ultimatum said:
Today, a criminal will be claiming benefits from the state--from the taxpayer.
There will be another person, who genuinely cannot work and has no criminal record, who will, also, be claiming benefits from the state--from the taxpayer.

Do you believe it fair to look down upon the person who cannot work and is claiming genuinely, when there is a criminal somewhere else claiming for the same source?
The people who fund political parties control their agendas. This is how politics works.

Ultimatum said:
Any evidence to back up that claim?
I'm not zipped up the back.

Ultimatum said:
Does it matter if they're ex-Conservative if their opinions have changed? I'm an ex-Conservative voter, also, but I disagree with and really do not like the Conservatives. My opinions have completely changed since joining as a UKIP member.
One's opinion can be changed with discussion and debate, you know.
Well, I salute your charitable outlook.

Ultimatum said:
UKIP could, possibly, form a coalition with the Conservatives at the next G.E. if David Cameron would agree on a nationwide referendum on EU membership. The terms and timing would have to be absolutely right, however.
There is no chance with Labour, as they are pro-mass immigration.
Take a look down the list of 100 reasons to vote UKIP on the website. Which of those do you think will be possible in a UKIP-Tory coalition?

Ultimatum said:
Well, it's quite simple economics, really. Raise taxes substantially, money flows to areas with a lower tax rate. Much like what is happening to our manufacturing.
Simple economics also talks about externalities like pollutants being expelled into the environment. The market is not free if society is paying a chunk of the cost of production.
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
UKIP with out Nigel Farage as Führer would simply fall apart in acrimony.
we have the situation where he is almost daily having to contradict what his candidates and MEP's are saying.
He is the sole arbiter of Policy and strategy.
I assume such candidates were selected for their compatibility with the aims of UKIP. However their repeated and oft corrected statements seem to be far to the right of where Farage wants them to be perceived.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
I'm sceptical bit willing to read what might suggest on the matter.

I found a report by PricewaterhouseCoopers, I haven't had time to read it all yet but as far as I can see there is a single paragraph on green taxes. Pages 28 and 29 have a run down of key sectors and not once are green taxes or carbon taxation mentioned as a major challenge.

It is actually toward the bottom of the report.

Green taxes are another high-profile issue, and one that is currently creating considerable uncertainty. The first Carbon Budget is due in 2009, and the government has committed to an 80% reduction in carbon emissions by 2050. However, it is as yet unclear how such reductions are to be achieved. To date, the main ‘green’ tax break relevant to manufacturing firms is the 100% deduction available on capital investment in designated energy and water-saving plant and machinery, which is tax deductible in full in the year of purchase. There needs to be much more clarity about the long-term direction of environmental taxes, so that manufacturers can plan for future investment. It will be vital to ensure that any changes create a fair tax regime that does not pose disproportionate burdens on UK business.

The people who fund political parties control their agendas. This is how politics works.

The treasurer of UKIP takes the donations. The treasurer of UKIP does not represent or reflect upon policy. If one wants to donate to UKIP's cause, then I'm sure it will be taken in good faith. Is one to vet every single donor that wants to contribute?
It will not divert the cause of UKIP, as Nigel, who is has the final word in the party, has been campaigning for the same thing for 20 years. He is very different from the mainstream parties' leaders, as they, quite frankly, take the same social democratic view on every issue that pops up.

I'm not zipped up the back.

?

Take a look down the list of 100 reasons to vote UKIP on the website. Which of those do you think will be possible in a UKIP-Tory coalition?

Both the Conservatives and UKIP have not ruled out a coalition. If, and it will be the case, it's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives at the G.E., well, let's be honest, we don't want Labour in power. We want to, at the very least, make sure that we have a fair referendum on EU membership.

Simple economics also talks about externalities like pollutants being expelled into the environment. The market is not free if society is paying a chunk of the cost of production.

No, economics talks about the potential cost of pollutants on companies. Science talks about the effects of pollutants on the environment.
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
UKIP with out Nigel Farage as Führer would simply fall apart in acrimony.
we have the situation where he is almost daily having to contradict what his candidates and MEP's are saying.
He is the sole arbiter of Policy and strategy.


Well, if people are going to ahead and say something that the party does not stand for, I would expect the leader to stand up and say "No, this is not the view of the party".
If a Conservative backbencher were to say: "The EU is broken" (which some do), and this quote was spread over the media like there was no tomorrow, we can be sure that Mr. Cameron would say: "I disagree".
 
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