Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
Nothing serious, really!
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So what's wrong with UKIP?
- Thread starter Ultimatum
- Start date
Nothing serious, really!
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
I know I am rambling on about it, but when I asked in thread title "what is wrong with UKIP?", I expected to have reasonable debates with people on UKIP's policies. But instead, of doing that some people think it's a good idea to attack at UKIP candidates. It's disgusting. And the only reason this is happening, whether that be on a day-to-day basis or with the media, is because they know that they are wrong. They know. They know they cannot debate the EU and win, they know they cannot debate immigration and win, etc..
If I had "What is wrong with the LibDems?", I would expect honest debates on policies and not on the fact that one the LibDems candidates was sent to jail for planting bombs..
Please don't go for the player, go for the ball.
If I had "What is wrong with the LibDems?", I would expect honest debates on policies and not on the fact that one the LibDems candidates was sent to jail for planting bombs..
Please don't go for the player, go for the ball.
Secret Chief
nirvana is samsara
No, it's not about "wrong." It's about viewpoints. UKIP is a Eurosceptic right-wing populist party. My views, attitudes, opinions are broadly left-wing so am not going to find much I agree with in a party like UKIP am I? I don't need to make it "personal" in order to think UKIP is "wrong."
DayRaven
Beyond the wall
I will indeed watch with interest.
My opposition to UKIP is the same as my opposition to the "Conservatives": neither party are social conservatives. You need a genuine conservative movement in politics just as you need a genuine liberal movement. We no longer have the former and the later are degenerating.
There isn't a "left" or "right".
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
People have been saying that for a while so it's difficult to say. On the other hand I can't see them getting a lot of MPs elected next May.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
I have been saying since the last general election tht UKIP are going to have a massive affect on the next election.
This will be a far greater effect than the number of seats they win. It will mainly be because of the number of votes they get in seats that they do not win. In many cases this will decide the actual winner.
The likelyhood of a hung parliament will be even greater than it was for the present one.
The additional uncertainty of the change in the SNP seats to be won from labour and the split loyalties of the NI vote. Could make forming any sort of government very difficult indeed.
The UK never has been especially right wing and has never been particularly insular , both things promoted by UKIP. while I expect them to do well I do not expect them to achieve any thing like a majority. My own preferenc for a liberal philosophy will be sunk near without trace. Which will move the remaining choices much furter to the right than we have experienced in any recent election. With all the remaining parties all fighting over the same space, will make the final tally of seats totally unpredictable. And the next governments task near impossible.
This will be a far greater effect than the number of seats they win. It will mainly be because of the number of votes they get in seats that they do not win. In many cases this will decide the actual winner.
The likelyhood of a hung parliament will be even greater than it was for the present one.
The additional uncertainty of the change in the SNP seats to be won from labour and the split loyalties of the NI vote. Could make forming any sort of government very difficult indeed.
The UK never has been especially right wing and has never been particularly insular , both things promoted by UKIP. while I expect them to do well I do not expect them to achieve any thing like a majority. My own preferenc for a liberal philosophy will be sunk near without trace. Which will move the remaining choices much furter to the right than we have experienced in any recent election. With all the remaining parties all fighting over the same space, will make the final tally of seats totally unpredictable. And the next governments task near impossible.
DayRaven
Beyond the wall
The political right is, usually, confused with conservatism but it's nothing of the sort. "Right" and "Left" are reactionary positions both the same in nature and opposed to conservatism (and indeed liberalism). Seeing conservatism as part of the same political spectrum as fascism or Nazism is as perverse as seeing liberalism linked to Marxism or communism.
Yerda
Veteran Member
Right. The lack of genuine political choice offered by the main parties is probably the biggest political problem we have in the UK.
This is hardly a good reason to trust a banker and party leader who is sitting idle in the Euro parliament taking our money. Whenever I hear Farage speak I hear a man talking vague platitudes. What is the "absolute sense" have you heard?
They have allied with a party whose leader denies the holocaust, yes? This does not concern you?Ultimatum said:
Please. If you look at the voting records of these goons you would be ashamed of using their name in such a sentence. They are human impersonators out to get as much as they can as fast as they can.Ultimatum said:
I'll have a re-read through the thread. All that comes to mind is that you don't like seeing so many immigrants from the EU who are claiming benefits.Ultimatum said:I would say that it's a very big issue (although not the only one), and we need to do something about it. Why do we need to do something about it? My previous posts will provide a clue into that
What I think of them? If it's happening then I think that they are leaving a sinking ship. The odd thing is that the BNP are publicly saying that they agree with everything UKIP says. In the by-election won by Reckless, BNP members were actively encouraging people to vote UKIP.
As for Emily Thornberry, she probably is a snob. She is a Labour parliamentarian. I think they only come in snob colour.
I'll be honest, I am fascinated by the media. If you have anything on the subjectI will read it.Ultimatum said:
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
On his EU attendance, it is laughable to imply Farage is lazy. His work rate is probably the highest of any MEP — it’s just he’s not doing what they’d like him to do. Oh, and if you hadn't noticed, he's leading the 3rd biggest political party in the UK at the moment. I also believe he had a neck operation and has been recovering.
They have done a deal with one MEP who comes from a party who's party leader has said things that neither UKIP or Nigel Farage agree with. I will say it again: You are referencing a party leader and not the individual concerned.
The fact of the matter is, the people as a whole in Rochester and Strood trusted him which is why he retained his seat. Say what you will.
No, not at all. I want the UK to leave the EU.
Brussels wants to be like America. The difference with America is that when America was founded, people left their homes in Europe, crossed the Atlantic, started with a blank sheet of paper, and had the intention of forming a country. And they did it! They had some brilliant people, wrote an excellent constitution, and they got on with it. Interestingly, it took them 100 years after forming a country to have a proper monetary union. In Europe, the beaurocrats are trying it the other way round. And it's not working. In America, there is an American demos. There is NO European demos in Europe, there is no such thing as a real sense of EUROPEAN identity. If we went to all the nations of the European Union and we showed them two flags: their country's flag and the retched thing in my avatar and we say to them: "To which do you owe your alliegance to?" I know what the answer is. You know what the answer is. So we don't want this United
States of Europe: it is not desired. And if we attemp to impose the retched thing in my avatar, and an anthem, and a police force, and an army UPON the people of Europe without their consent, far from that being a recipe for peace and harmony, we would risk what happened with Yugoslavia. We would just go back to how we always were.
And it's not immigrants that I don't like because, in fact, I have many immigrant friends! It's the illegal immigrants that I don't want in this country. Just like everyone else.
No, these are very different parties:
The BNP are a protectionist party who want to put tariffs up on goods that come in from outside of Britain; UKIP is a free trade party who believe that having a Free Trade deal with the European Union is much too small and too backward for what we want. We want to have a Free Trade deal with the English speaking world, like the Commonwealth, America, etc.. So that's a difference on trade. In terms of race, the BNP will prohibit anybody from being a member of the BNP if they come from a mixed race or different background. UKIP is colourblind: Here's a hint: They aren't interested on whether people are black, white, or yellow, they just aren't interested in that. People are people and if they are legal UK citizens, then they are part of the same family that UKIP is part of. And, indeed, an increasing number of ethinc minority groups are starting to stand for UKIP in election. So UKIP have nothing to do with BNP on the race issue.
People have tried to group the BNP and UKIP together. But actually, nowadays, they don't call UKIP racist anymore because it simply isn't true. (Unlike the BNP, of course)
And you have just highlighted a problem! Ed Milliband insists that Labour is still the working-man's party. But in reality, doesn't seem to be the case.
I'll be honest, I am fascinated by the media. If you have anything on the subjectI will read it.[/QUOTE]
Yerda
Veteran Member
I'll take your word on his work rate. I have witnessed none of the charm that is famously winning people over, but what I'll do is go and read some interviews and get back to you on the question of why you find him trustworthy.
Yes. Again I have assumed you are correct. If the leader of a party comes out with the holocaust denial chat then I'm inclined to want nothing to do with the party that made him leader. I see that you don't feel that way.Ultimatum said:
I guess the best I could say is I hope they know better than I do.Ultimatum said:
We can be in the EU without being part of a superstate or federal Europe. We don't even have to use the currency. Leaving the EU will only solve the problem of being in the EU if it is one. That's about it. We face massive problems in housing, health care, work, education, debt, inequality, hunger, and so on. If we left the EU tomorrow everything that is threatening to ruin people's lives right now would still be exactly the same.Ultimatum said:
I hope you are right.Ultimatum said:
Hasn't been for a long time.Ultimatum said:
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
Ah yes sorry, I will answer your previous question:
I find Nigel Farage to be the most trustworthy of the main party leaders. (But of course this is an opinion)
We obviously have different ideas on how political figures should associate themselves with others.
He allied not with a holocaust denier, but with a different individual.
We can be in the EU without being part of a superstate or federal Europe.
Of course we can't. That is the whole point of the EU. To bring countries together under 3 centralized institutions:
the European Comission, the European Council, and the European court.
We don't even have to use the currency
Well that is talking about the Eurozone, which is another topic of discussion. And thank God we don't have to share that currency.
Leaving the EU will only solve the problem of being in the EU if it is one. That's about it.
It may not be a problem for the people (which, admittedly, is true), but it certainly is a problem for the small and medium-sized business in the country. And it is no wonder that the big multinationals want to stay in because EU regulations make it extremely difficult for the smaller medium-sized businesses to succeed.
We face massive problems in housing, health care, work, education, debt, inequality, hunger, and so on. If we left the EU tomorrow everything that is threatening to ruin people's lives right now would still be exactly the same.
Exactly the same? Not really. The housing crisis would loosen its' ever tightening grip thanks to controlled immigration numbers. We would have around £12bn/year (net) extra to spend on public services (EU fees).
Not much (in terms of people problems), but not exactly the same.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Yes, it looks that way. Possibly things won't look all that different to now.
Altfish
Veteran Member
UKIP have sense of humour by-pass...
Ukip fail to see funny side of Trumpton Twitter account - Telegraph
...when will they realise that if you criticise and try to have something banned on the internet, the opposite happens it goes viral. UKIP members should look up The Streisand Effect
Ukip fail to see funny side of Trumpton Twitter account - Telegraph
...when will they realise that if you criticise and try to have something banned on the internet, the opposite happens it goes viral. UKIP members should look up The Streisand Effect
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
I don't see much wrong with UKIP policy-wise.
Ignorant and stupid comments from some members within the party do annoy and concern me over the types of viewpoints that UKIP is attracting.
However, I lean more libertarian myself and so lean toward UKIP. An open door immigration policy is madness for an island which has a housing crisis and a beds crisis in the NHS, not to mention ever longer waiting lists. (Yes, I support free healthcare, I said I only "lean" libertarian, okay.
)I was once of the opinion that the European Union could be reformed. That it could be brought back to the ideal of a closely-knit and powerful trading bloc that could hold its own against the US and China. I was wrong though. The EU is wholly committed to ever closer union and striving for some kind of utopian federalism, with expansionist goals that encourage any old country to join regardless of economic stature.
What was once a common market has transformed into a political union, one where laws are made for us in another country, one that is anti-democratic. Since when has a British vote ever meant anything in the EU? The people in charge of the EU are not who the British people have voted for.
I realise though that we must be careful as a people to not point our fingers at immigrants and lump all of our problems and blame on them. If we do so, we only play into the hands of those who hold real power and wish to hide their more shady dealings, namely multinational corporate entities that lobby our governments. And yet I would say some way to solving this is leaving the EU as well. The EU panders to corporate power, not the people. Heard of TTIP, anyone?
We also must, however, be unafraid of being labelled bigoted or politically incorrect and pursue a sensible immigration policy. Having an open door is far from sensible. And those who point fingers and cry out "Bigotry!" should realise that having an open door to Europeans while having immigration restrictions for the rest of the world is a bigotry in of itself.
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
All parties have shady types of people doing shady types of things within the party. It is certainly not just exclusively UKIP.
Those who call "bigotry" are simply parroting the media.
Would you call Australia bigots? What about the USA? Or Canada? Because, in essence, these people are implying this.
How a country thinks that declining a fluent-speaking, qualified doctor from New Zealand, yet being forced to accept an EU paedophile is good immigration policy is beyond me.
And I understand that you shouldn't unload all of the cause of your problems on immigrants, but the fact of the matter is this: We have an oversupply of unskilled labour which has seen the ordinary British worker have his wages compressed over the last 10 years, and we have a crumbling NHS.
These are massive issues that need to be resolved. And will only be resolved by leaving the EU or borrowing more money (which is a good thing of course (!). That's a fact.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
Hear hear.
What would you have the UK do after leaving though?
I have heard calls for greater trade among the commonwealth though I've also read other commonwealth countries frankly aren't that interested, especially if it's going to be some kind of "Commonwealth Union".
Before the common market we had good trade relations with Australia, but after joining the common market we could no longer keep those relations, and Australia turned its attention to East Asia, and it has no intention of changing that. Same goes for many other countries.
Ultimatum
Classical Liberal
We will continue trading just as we are now, I presume. Germany will want to keep selling us their cars, France will sell us their wine, and we will enjoy Danish bacon (!)
I have also heard Nigel Farage say he would have a Free Trade deal with the English speaking world, like the Commonwealth, America, etc.. I personally see this as viable: They sell us their goods and we offer them goods. To decline any free trade deal with a first-world country is economically backward.
To think that trade would be harmed by leaving the EU is silly thought. The EU is a POLITICAL union, not an economic union (this is the Eurozone).
And you'll also find that the Americans and Canadians who do follow UK politics, the majority agree with what Farage says.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
To be honest with you, I am a bit worried by articles like this:
Nigel Farage 'used N-word to dismiss black vote': New race row hits Ukip | Daily Mail Online
And yes... I know it's the Daily Mail. But it doesn't help and I do wonder if Nigel the people's man who I would happily have a pint with is hiding some other less than pleasant views.