So What Happened To All The Changes, Tribulations, And Woe Jesus Had Promised?

[Skwim]

What is abomination of desolation?

.

 

[ecco]

Here you go again promoting lies and delusion because you do not understand Gods' Word

No lies. No delusions. Just an ability to read 2000 year old stories as translated to English. Just an ability to understand that when powerful entities coerce an innocent young female to accept being impregnated, that that is RAPE.

You do know your only fulfilling the scriptures... For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Thank you for proving God's Word true again

Are you really that naive? Really? What do you expect storytellers to say? "Hey, this is all a bunch of nonsense"? Of course, they are going to say the kind of BS that you quoted. The only thing that is proved is that the old storytellers knew how to manipulate the naive people who would blindly accept their words. I guess that includes "angels".

There are many things that proves God's Word true. This conversation is simply one of them and for that I thank you

See above. I'll bet you also believe the Gospel writers were eyewitnesses to all the word for word quotes they attributed to Jesus. Oh, well.

 

[ecco]

All I hear are your words from your own imagination repeating yourself, which are not God's Word because you do not understand God's Word and do not know God. Please let's continue the discussion when you have something intelligent to say.

OK. Here is something rational, intelligent, and factual. Rape is rape. The Bible was written and compiled by misogynistic men who believed women were their subordinates.

“For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior” (Ephesians 5:23, ESV).

“Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. … Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (Ephesians 5:22 and 25, ESV).​

Some of the strongest adherents to the Bible's misogynistic views are alive and well today.

Do you have anything except your blind belief that the Bible was written by God? That is a fantasy that even Most Christians no longer believe. Your Bible was written by an anonymous group of men trying to promote an alternative religion. At least with Muhammed and Baluluah and Joseph Smith, we know who the actual writers were.

 

[ecco]

ALL reading requires interpreting.
If it was very clear then everyone would interpret it THE SAME WAY, but they don't.
I thought atheists were logical but I guess that does not apply across the board.

No. All writing does not need interpreting. Some writing is very clear and specific.

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain,
​

Does that need interpreting? In context, it's clear to anyone with a 10th-grade education what "knew" means. If one knows the English language one does not need to interpret "conceived" and "bare".

Would anyone interpret that passage as: "Adam and Eve were married so they were acquainted with one another and Eve devised a plan to see Cain with no clothes on.

Tell me again about who is being illogical.

You are in no position to say "All of the Bible was intended to be interpreted literally." You have absolutely nothing on which to base that assertion other than your own opinion.

Sure I am. Sure I do. Sure is anyone with any valid concept of why and how people write stories that they hope/expect will become scripture. Do you really think the guys who wrote "in the beginning" or the detailed genealogies were just giving hints?

Do you think the writer of Matthew was just messing with people when he (allegedly) wrote:
Matthew 24:30-31

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.​

That was meant to be taken literally. That was meant to be accepted as Truth From God.




Did your Baluluah write in such a way that his writings could be interpreted in many different ways? If so, they are as useless any other stories written by men.

 

[ecco]

The laws were established with supernatural guidance, but Moses did not write the OT as Baha’u’llah wrote His Book of Laws. That is the difference.

Who wrote the book of Genesis and when was it written?

Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › Book_of_Genesis

What makes you believe that 3000 years from now people won't be saying: "Baluluah? Nah. There never was a Baluluah. No one really knows who wrote all that stuff".

 

[ecco]

Muhammed was not illiterate.
Claim of Muhammad’s illiteracy | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

Muhammad was illiterate:
Is it True that Prophet Muhammad Was Illiterate?

I guess we'll have to wait until we get to heaven and ask him ourselves.

 

[ecco]

According to official Bahai, Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad were all Manifestations of God and therefore infallible.

That is true, but so what?

Cough. Choke. Gag. Laugh out Loud. You seriously want admit that after all the stuff you wrote. Really?

 

[3rdAngel]

No lies. No delusions. Just an ability to read 2000 year old stories as translated to English. Just an ability to understand that when powerful entities coerce an innocent young female to accept being impregnated, that that is RAPE.

Let's add denial to your lies and delusions because you do not understand God's Word because you do not know God. Thanks for proving God's Word to be true again *2 THESSALONIANS 2:11; ISAIAH 66:4

Are you really that naive? Really? What do you expect storytellers to say? "Hey, this is all a bunch of nonsense"? Of course, they are going to say the kind of BS that you quoted. The only thing that is proved is that the old storytellers knew how to manipulate the naive people who would blindly accept their words. I guess that includes "angels".

Seeing you see not and hearing you hear not because you deny God's Word *MATTHEW 13:13. You do not see because you close your eyes. You do not hear because you close your ears and it is people like you who fulfill the very Word of God you deny. The fool says in his heart there is no God *PSALMS 53:1. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned *1 CORINTHIANS 2:14 for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness *1 CORINTHIANS 3:19. Although I feel suppy for you as you do not even know you are fulfilling the very scritptures you deny and proving God's Word true for all to see. Thankyou

See above. I'll bet you also believe the Gospel writers were eyewitnesses to all the word for word quotes they attributed to Jesus. Oh, well.

Let me know when you have something intelligent to say and we will talk more latter

 

[3rdAngel]

OK. Here is something rational, intelligent, and factual. Rape is rape. The Bible was written and compiled by misogynistic men who believed women were their subordinates.

“For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior” (Ephesians 5:23, ESV).

“Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. … Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (Ephesians 5:22 and 25, ESV).​

Some of the strongest adherents to the Bible's misogynistic views are alive and well today.

Do you have anything except your blind belief that the Bible was written by God? That is a fantasy that even Most Christians no longer believe. Your Bible was written by an anonymous group of men trying to promote an alternative religion. At least with Muhammed and Baluluah and Joseph Smith, we know who the actual writers were.

YawwwnnZZz, sorry did you say something intelligent? I could not find it.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. All writing does not need interpreting. Some writing is very clear and specific.

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain,

Does that need interpreting? In context, it's clear to anyone with a 10th-grade education what "knew" means. If one knows the English language one does not need to interpret "conceived" and "bare".

Would anyone interpret that passage as: "Adam and Eve were married so they were acquainted with one another and Eve devised a plan to see Cain with no clothes on.

I agree that the meaning is clear, but you still had to interpret it as you read it.

Interpret: explain the meaning of (information, words, or actions).
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=interpret+meaning

Sure I am. Sure I do. Sure is anyone with any valid concept of why and how people write stories that they hope/expect will become scripture. Do you really think the guys who wrote "in the beginning" or the detailed genealogies were just giving hints?

Maybe the Bible writers did expect people to interpret the whole Bible literally, but does that mean you believe everything in the Bible is literally true? Do you believe that?

Do you think the writer of Matthew was just messing with people when he (allegedly) wrote:
Matthew 24:30-31

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

That was meant to be taken literally. That was meant to be accepted as Truth From God.

Maybe it was intended to be taken literally or maybe not, but either way, it was meant to be accepted as the Truth from God. It is definitely open to more than one interpretation; it is not like the verse you posted above. Who is the Son of Man referred to in these verses? Jesus was given the title “the Son of Man” but the title Son of Man does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It also applies to Baha’u’llah.

To explain in brief, Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible (who was Baha’u’llah) will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. He devoted quite a bit of text to explaining what clouds means. To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ. Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded.

The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of Man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven....

Maybe you can now understand how serious it is when verses are misinterpreted.

Did your Baluluah write in such a way that his writings could be interpreted in many different ways? If so, they are as useless any other stories written by men.

The fact that some scriptures can have more than one meaning is just the nature of scriptures. Some scriptures can have more than one meaning and some have one obvious meaning, but you’d be surprised the lengths people will go to in order to deny the meanings that are obvious. Some Baha’is will say that Baha’u’llah did not mean for us to interpret the self and passion writings literally just because they do not want to face reality.

The point is that no two people are going to interpret any passage exactly the same way because we all process what we read differently. The other point is that people will SEE what they want to SEE in a passage because people generally believe what they WANT to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

What makes you believe that 3000 years from now people won't be saying: "Baluluah? Nah. There never was a Baluluah. No one really knows who wrote all that stuff".

They can SAY whatever they want to say about His Writings but they can be proven wrong because the original Tablets of Baha’u’llah stamped with His official seal reside in a vault in Haifa, Israel. They are carefully protected so they cannot be accessed and destroyed.

It is a historical fact that Baha’u’llah existed and founded a religion, nobody can deny that.

Baha’u’llah: the Founder of the Baha’i Faith

The only question that remains is whether He was a Messenger of God or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

I guess we'll have to wait until we get to heaven and ask him ourselves.

If we get that opportunity.
Same with all this religious stuff that cannot be proven.

 

[Trailblazer]

Cough. Choke. Gag. Laugh out Loud. You seriously want admit that after all the stuff you wrote. Really?

I have no idea what you mean. After all what stuff I wrote?

 

[ecco]

Let's add denial to your lies

Please show where I have lied. Accusing someone of being a liar is contrary to the rules of the forum. If you can prove I lied, I'll accept that. However, I am not a moderator.

 

[ecco]

Maybe the Bible writers did expect people to interpret the whole Bible literally, but does that mean you believe everything in the Bible is literally true? Do you believe that?

I don't believe any of it is true. I have posted many times that the writers of the Bible stories were people trying to get a new religion established. That is true for the OT and the NT. It is also true of anything Baluluah and John Smith and Muhammed wrote.

However, that is not the point of discussion. The point of the discussion is whether or not the writers expected people to accept their writings as factual and not as allegory or just-so stories.

Do you think Baluluah expected you and others to accept his writings as truth? If so, why don't you give the same amount of respect to other writers of scripture?

 

[ecco]

Jesus was given the title “the Son of Man” but the title Son of Man does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It also applies to Baha’u’llah.

Duh! When the Bible writers wrote about "Son of Man", they didn't know about Baluluah.

 

[ecco]

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. He devoted quite a bit of text to explaining what clouds means.

Really? In real factual terms or in nonsensical metaphysical terms?

Your link goes to an index page. Do you expect me to look through all the articles until I find Baluluah's writings about clouds?

 

[ecco]

The fact that some scriptures can have more than one meaning is just the nature of scriptures. Some scriptures can have more than one meaning and some have one obvious meaning, but you’d be surprised the lengths people will go to in order to deny the meanings that are obvious. Some Baha’is will say that Baha’u’llah did not mean for us to interpret the self and passion writings literally just because they do not want to face reality.

All of which makes all scripture really worthless.

 

[ecco]

They can SAY whatever they want to say about His Writings but they can be proven wrong because the original Tablets of Baha’u’llah stamped with His official seal reside in a vault in Haifa, Israel. They are carefully protected so they cannot be accessed and destroyed.

Uh huh.
I'm sure the keepers of the Holy Grail also carefully protected it.
I'm sure the keepers of the Arc of the Covenant also carefully protected it.
Oops.

Stuff happens.

When you use the term "tablets" are these stone tablets or what?

It is a historical fact that Baha’u’llah existed and founded a religion, nobody can deny that.

Many people have founded religions. Betcha can't name them because the "winners" struck their names from the rolls of history. Do you even know who Marcion is? Have you read any of his writings? Do you know how many NT books/stories were not included in accepted scripture?

The only question that remains is whether He was a Messenger of God or not.

Just like Muhammed and Joseph Smith and Jim Jones and David Koresh and Sung Myong Moon and Shiva and.........

 

[3rdAngel]

Please show where I have lied. Accusing someone of being a liar is contrary to the rules of the forum. If you can prove I lied, I'll accept that. However, I am not a moderator.

Your lie as shown through the scriptures as quoted was in reference to THESSALONIANS 2:11 is you trying to make out that God raped Mary which is simply a lie you have chosen to believe not based on any fact or scripture because you do not understand the scriptures because you do not believe in God. You ignoring context and the scriptures provided in love and as a help to you does not make them disappear. You are only proving God's Word true. For that I thank you again