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Featured So, What Happened, Jesus?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    genea, translated as generation from the Greek, means familial connection, past, present, future. Thus, this genea shall not pass away is literally true. Those with familial connections to whom He was speaking still exist, they haven´t passed away.

    You speak about The Kingdom, but I don think you have a clue as to what it is. Christ made it clear that the Kingdom existed at His time, yet he told Pilate that his kingdom wasn´t of this world.

    It is a Spiritual kingdom which would become a literal one, they are both the same.

    Certainly if Christ said his kingdom existed at his time, then certainly it was at hand to all that heard him.

    What you don´t grasp is that the Spiritual kingdom ( The Kingdom) has always existed, and will be reconciled as the literal kingdom (The Kingdom) at the end.

    This is the problem with superficial understanding, and cherry picking verses to make a criticism point.

    Exegesis is the method that must be used , line upon verse by verse to get clear understanding.

    Yes, all Christians from the beginning, to now have looked for the inception of the literal kingdom. However, this is not surprising since we were told to be prepared. Being prepared is the journey, the literal kingdom is the arrival. By being prepared we are able to live a Christian life and to fulfill responsibilities given to us.
     
  2. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    A non denominational Bible church is just that, they preach from the Bible, and I have found little I disagree with.

    Denominations, including yours major in minors. I have already mentioned to you your denominations adulteration of the Bible, adding what was never in the original manuscripts. Why, because your denomination wasn´t happy with how the Bible was written, it didn´t meet the organizations narrative, their particular minor to major in.

    I have 10 translations, including yours. In comparison, you can find word manipulation substitutions/omissions on virtually every page.

    This is anathema to me, essentially lying.

    The Catholics have traditions, the Pentacostals have speaking in tongues, the Adventists have the sabbath, you have your adulterated Bible and a man made name for God as your badges to show your specialness.

    The tetragrammaton YHWH, had no ¨J¨ sound in it to use in the name Jehovah. In fact, the ¨J¨ wasn´t even in use in English till the 1500ś. So, Jehovah is not the name of God, yet you believe it is, and condemn others for not using it.

    The Gospel is about one thing, the life of Christ, his teachings, his death and resurrection, accepting the ransom and substitutionary life provided for those who repent and come to him, and the power of The Spirit to lead and enlighten.

    It isn´t about keeping a special day, or charismatic manifestations, or a name for God.

    I would be happy to discuss your view of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation. Who and what they are, when do they come into existence, what their role is.

    Please take your time and answer these question with supporting verses and comments, I will then respond in kind.

    Peace
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Consider these things.

    1.
    Mark 9: 1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”​

    So the message here (and elsewhere in Mark and the gospels) is, Get ready, the Kingdom is at hand! It's happening NOW. It's about YOU!

    2.
    Mark 13:29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.
    So this is the same message, the same idea, the same sense of immediacy.

    3.
    γενεά basically means 'birth'. By association it can mean 'descent', hence 'family' and 'tribe'. But every translation I can find on the net chooses another of its meanings, 'generation'. Why is that, do you think?
    As I mentioned in another thread just recently, in the NT 'The Kingdom of God' has two meanings:

    First, ‘the Kingdom of God’ can mean the presently-living faithful, sometimes seen as faith itself as an entity:
    Mark 4:26 And he said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed upon the ground,
    Mark 10:15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
    Matthew 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
    Luke 10:9 heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
    Luke 10:11 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
    Luke 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
    Luke 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
    Luke 17:21 nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
    Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit;​

    And second, ‘the Kingdom of God’ can mean a future establishment or condition:
    Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."
    Mark 9:1 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."
    Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
    Mark 10:23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!"
    Mark 10:24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
    Mark 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
    Matthew 21:31 “Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
    Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
    Luke 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."
    Luke 13:28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.
    Luke 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
    Luke 22:16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
    Luke 22:18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
    Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.
    1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,
    1 Corinthians 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
    1 Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    Galatians 5:21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    2 Thessalonians 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering ─
    (And there are a number of other uses of the term which are unclear:

    See above.
    If that's a problem, it's not my problem.
    No, the document must be translated to find what it actually says. Once the words are clearly in place, arguments for possible alternative significances can be offered if they're based on evidence. If they're based on doctrine, that's simply requiring the text to conform to someone else's view, a perversion of the actual text.
     
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  4. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Oh, not this again.

    There are several types of myths.
    1. Explanations of the past
    2. Prophecy of a single specific timeline
    3. Myths of recurring events.
    Let's strike the second one from your head. God lives in eternal time, meaning certain things happen every generation.

    The moon does not give light during a new moon, and during a lunar eclipse. The sun goes dark every solar eclipse. This happens very often, in fact. But more specifically,

    In all likelihood, non-believers will not even be able to see Jesus if he were to come straight from the clouds. They have what TvTropes calls a Weirdness Censor. That is to say, as people see strange things, those who can't simply lock them away in a mental home. It's obviously not my failing that I can't see miracles! Just a side note, there is a legit difference between a hallucination and a mass witnessing of Jesus, which actually happened within months of the death of Jesus, and was reported by like 5000 people.

    As to the stars disappearing from the sky, as streets become brighter and brighter, this is exactly what is happening. It's called light pollution. The city is so well-lit that the night sky cannot be seen. Virtually every generation has been put to the test. In Jesus's time, it was Nero. More recently, there was the upheaval during World War I, and then World War II, and then there were Depressions and famines, and plagues. Every generation has been in End Times.

    The question is, given that eclipses are a regular occurrence, would you know if the "big one" hit?

    By the way, on the subject of eclipses, the "sun became dark" as Jesus was being crucified.

    This literally cannot happen naturally. Why? Because Passover is a holiday where a solar eclipse cannot occur (solar eclipses require a new moon while Passover only takes place during a full moon). So the event we are looking at announced by Jesus is either (a) both a solar and lunar eclipse, in rapid succession (basically, not coming unjoined) or (b) some sort of thick cloud mass (such as pollution) that covers the sun, moon, and stars.
     
  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Hey! Please feel free to pass on by if the issue is too troubling.

    So wouldn't things happen every generation if god didn't live in eternal time?

    .
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The trouble with God's eternal time is that it's meaningless in almost every context, including this. The question here is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in Mark, copied in Matthew and Luke (hence approved by their authors).

    Please have a read of my post #163 above.
     
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  7. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    I am not wading through numerous links.

    The point I have discovered about this eternal time, is that either you live in it, in which case you can experience and attach significance to these signs, or you don't. The human mind attaches connection to what is around it (this is not to say such stuff is more or less real).
    Think of those 11:11 types or pyramid power, or whatever. There are certain constants, but reality is self reinforcing provided something continues to be true for you. Let me give you an example. Tonight, we had round bone "lamb" chop, only it tasted like beef (lamb is somewhat sweeter even without mint jelly), the fatty portions had the same mouth feel as beef (the fat is slightly less tough for lamb than beef), and we have a feeling that the butcher wasn't sure what they had after a day or two. We call this rejection, when a person wants to believe something, and they simply can't see it this way.

    An atheist cannot see the world in Christian terms unless they change their whole mindset, any more than a devoted Christian can deny what they once felt. The Christians that do tend to turn away from the faith are those that see Jesus as a sort of historical figure that did good things, rather than an eternal figure who was there in the beginning with God. I have seen different religions point to similar figures, and view it not as "Christians stole from them" but as this sort of guy was around in different forms, and Jesus was just the famous one.
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I take it this is addressed to me? If not, my apologies.

    In #163 you don't need to click on the links ─ they're only the indecisive references. The texts that make the point are set out in full in the post itself.
    What does 'living in eternal time' mean that 'living in time' does not?
    Reality is the world external to the self, nature, the realm of the physical sciences, the place where all things with objective existence are found eg your air, your parents, your tax assessment. If you can't find it out there then the only place it exists is in your brain, as a concept ─ an abstraction, a generalization, a thing imagined.
    A statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / conforms to / accurately reflects objective reality. Statements about reality are accurate if they accord with the best opinion for the time being. Thus it was once true that the earth was flat, but now it isn't. Thus it was once untrue to say, The Higgs boson is real, but after 2012 it was true. In other words, the test for truth is as objective as we can make it, but there are no absolutes.
    If it's important enough, you send it off to the lab with a note, 'Is this lamb, beef or other?'
    I think that has to be right, for active believers. Though, in my observation, most believers know and are content with the forms, and derive emotional satisfaction from them; very few enquire into the actual doctrines, let alone do so critically or skeptically. Some may regard it as a ticket to heaven, others not think about it. (My mother, I'm sure, regarded her religion (Pisco) simply as a form of good manners.)

    It seems to me that the one central thing in all this is that no one has a definition of God appropriate to a being with objective existence. If we found a real candidate, one with objective existence, we'd have no way of telling whether it was really God or not. Nor is there a coherent concept of 'godness', the real quality a real god would have and eg a superscientist would not. This underlines for me that gods exist only as concepts in brains, and not only does God not have objective existence but even believers don't think [he] does. To say that God exists 'as spirit' or 'immaterially' or 'supernaturally' is to say nothing, since no test will distinguish any of those from 'imaginary'.
     
    #168 blü 2, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Does that mean that they have no doctrines? What do they preach from the Bible?

    Have they come to my door with "the good news of the Kingdom"? (Acts of the Apostles 5:42; 20:20)
    I must have been out shopping. :oops:

    There is no church in existence that has no disagreement with other denominations. Its the reason why there are denominations in the first place. Those who claim that they have no disagreements just avoid the contentious issues by never mentioning them. How does a non-denominational church, (for example,) treat homosexuality.....sex before marriage.....divorce....headship in the family arrangement....involvement in politics or joining the military....and things like these?

    OK, those are some serious allegations....can we have some examples so that we can consider your evidence? I frequently use Strongs Concordance and Biblegateway to compare translations and I have never come up with a problem in the way the NWT renders its verses. I usually find that once I have researched the original language words, that the "10 translations" are the ones in error with their own agenda to support.

    Let's explore them....

    How did Jesus and his first century disciples show their 'specialness'? Wasn't it the fact that they were different...not like everyone else....in fact deliberately going against what everyone else in their own religion believed?

    Didn't Jesus, as the "Fine Shepherd", lead them out of that corrupt religious system and into a new pen, under a new covenant? I don't think you will get a much more 'different' group of Christians than JW's when you compare them to Christendom's churches....denominational or not. We don't see it as "special....just "different" as Jesus said the "wheat" would be at the "harvest time". We believe that its harvest time is looming right now. What about you? The harvest was about the 'difference', not the 'sameness'.

    I have seen people use a lot of excuses for not using God's exclusive name....no matter how we pronounce it...there is only one Jehovah...Yahweh...YHWH...יְהֹוָ֥ה.

    Deuteronomy 6:4
    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. " דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:

    Psalm 83:18
    "Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth." יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:

    I love using the Tanach for the Hebrew scriptures because God's name יְהֹוָ֥ה is there in the Hebrew text even though it is missing in the English translation.

    Exodus 3:13-15....Tanach

    13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
    יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
    14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
    ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

    15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
    טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

    Now it is glaringly apparent that God's illustrious name was lost to Israel because they failed to keep using it "forever", not mentioning it in every generation as instructed.

    So if we know what God's name is in Hebrew, but we don't really know how to say it, is it wrong to use the English translation? Let me ask you if you use the name "Jesus"? In many denominations, the name of Jesus is the only one they know and use, so if many believe that Jesus is God, then why is it OK to use his name in English but not Jehovah's? Would you like to go back and change every "J" name in the Bible? Most of them incorporate Jehovah's name. I don't think you've thought this through.

    The gospel is the "good news" about all those things. But it goes further than that....as part of the sign that he was ruling in his Kingdom, Jesus said at Matthew 24:14....
    "And this good news [gospel] of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

    So the gospel closely involves God's kingdom...the one Jesus taught us to pray for. Can you tell me what the Kingdom of God is, and how it "comes" as this is part of what we are to preach. Christendom is clueless about this....and they don't preach except in church......I don't think preaching to the converted is what Jesus had in mind....do you? (Matthew 28:19-20)

    Perhaps a new thread is appropriate. I will do some further research and get back to you. This should be rather enjoyable. :)
     
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  10. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    You guys are too crafty for me, I had better come up with a better disguised fallacy.
     
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    How about NO fallacies at all?

    .
     
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  12. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    I commented on "many Biblical scholars, and scholars of the history of the east who are not Christians, most reluctantly admit that Christ existed." Making up fantasy to support fantasy, what a concept. I have read the gospels, they read like fiction but you are free to believe, just don't bother trying to convince others that you are not being fooled.
     
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  13. MJ Bailey

    MJ Bailey Member

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    If the difference wasn't meant to be realized, would or could you realize it? :)Just asking from being in a mood:mad:
     
  14. MJ Bailey

    MJ Bailey Member

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    Depending on your own personal beliefs you can read a Scientific manual of sorts and place it as an arbitrary dictation. It was always my "personal" understanding that if there is a relevancy in fact (some sort of tangible evidence) discrepancies can not and will not exist. What individual would write about someone in whom did not exist; unless authors of "fantasies" were regarded as scholars in the time of Christ and before?
     
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  15. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    It is you who are fooling yourself. but you are free to do so.

    Are you accusing me of being a liar ?
     
  16. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    No, I accused you of fooling yourself and then you came back that it was me fooling myself, and then you asked me if I accused you of being a liar of which I answered, "No,..."
     
  17. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Good
     
  18. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    Why, were you lying or just passing along real bad information that someone else made up?
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    I don't think fantasy is the right word. Teaching myths would be more accurate.

    Old Testament books

    • Pentateuch (Law of Moses) The book of Genesis answers the question,...
    • Historical writings. Joshua is the story of how Israel moved into the promised land of Canaan.
    • Wisdom and poetry. Job is a book of wisdom that addresses the problem of innocent people who suffer.
    • Major prophets. Isaiah preaches judgment and comfort for the nation...
    Old Testament books | OverviewBible
    overviewbible.com/old-testament-books/
     
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  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Numbers
    Numbers tells the story of Israel’s wanderings through the wilderness in route to the promised land of Canaan. Numbers begins and ends with Moses counting all the people in the nation, which is how the book gets its name.


    Joshua
    Joshua is the story of how Israel moved into the promised land of Canaan. It details the battles and treaties between Israel and the native Canaanites, and then tells us how the tribes of Israel divvied up the land.


    Judges
    Judges is the account of how Israel behaves between the death of Joshua and the leadership of a king. Instead of remaining loyal to God and following His laws, this generation of Israelites wanders in their faith, worshiping idols and indulging in gratuitous violence.
     
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