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Featured So, What Happened, Jesus?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Skwim, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Matthew 24


    Verses 1- 3, Jesus talks about The destruction of the temple and its implications.

    Verses 4-14, Jesus talks about The flow of history until his return.

    Verses 15-35, Jesus talks about the sign of His coming and the end of the age.*


    Starting at verse 29 we read

    ERV
    29 “Right after the trouble of those days, this will happen:

    ‘The sun will become dark,
    and the moon will not give light.
    The stars will fall from the sky,
    and everything in the sky will be changed.’[c]

    30 “Then there will be something in the sky that shows the Son of Man is coming. All the people of the world will cry. Everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. He will come with power and great glory. 31 He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels all around the earth. They will gather his chosen people from every part of the earth.

    32 “The fig tree teaches us a lesson: When its branches become green and soft, and new leaves begin to grow, then you know that summer is very near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that the time[d] is very near, already present. 34 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever.

    In other Bibles verse 34 reads as:

    GNT
    "Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died."
    KJV
    "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
    NOG
    “I can guarantee this truth: This generation will not disappear until all these things take place."
    NIRV
    "What I’m about to tell you is true. The people living now will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
    MSG
    . . .Don’t take this lightly. I’m not just saying this for some future generation, but for all of you. This age continues until all these things take place. Sky and earth will wear out; my words won’t wear out."
    GNT
    "Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

    So what happened? Nothing happened, that's what happened.

    The sun never became dark.
    The moon still gives light.
    The stars are still in the sky,
    Everything in the sky has not changed.
    And everyone did not see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.​


    Question: How could Jesus (god) have been so terribly wrong?



    *source

    .
     
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  2. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    It's not been fulfilled....yet.

    The generation spoken of refers to the Parable of the Fig Tree. Which you posted here:

    This Parable, long story short, is talking about when Israel becomes a country controlled by the Jewish people. Which happened on May 14th, 1948.

    So according to this prophecy the generation that is spoken of, is who we call the baby boomers basically. Based on that. The apocalypse is set to happen sometime between 1948 and 2058 (roughly, no man shall know the exact date).

    This is based on a human life span, not many humans live longer than 110 years so I'm safe with calling 110 years as good.

    At least that is my understanding of it. Still got 29 years to know if I'm right or wrong though.
     
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  3. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we'll have to wait that long...

    But others have made similar errors in regard to the "generation" of Mt 24. JWs used to think it was the generation that saw the events of 1914. By your method that still has 5 years to go before we can say they were wrong. But the WT has abandoned that anyway, since most of the people alive in 1914 have long since passed off the scene, oops, I'm sorry, I mean as a result of "increasing spiritual light". I wonder what you'll do as 2058 approaches without incident? Claim some divinely inspired refinement of understanding? Or more likely you'll just do what the rest of us will do as that date approaches - die. Which is, as far as I can tell, exactly what Jesus did.

    But as to how Jesus could have got it wrong - I don't think "he" did. "He" wasn't speaking literally, "he" was quoting imagery from the Hebrew scriptures (see e.g. Joel 3:15) about the judgement of God on the nations and on Israel. So somebody put that succession of words in his mouth AFTER the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70CE and essentially, it was suggesting that whilst God was indeed rightly pissed at Israel, eventually the nation(s) that participate in their downfall will in turn get their comeuppance as well. Which of course they did. But there was no need for divine revelation to reveal that nations come and go over time. Most of Bible prophecy is about nations coming and going. The more immediately after the events they "foretell" they are written, the more startlingly "accurate" the prophecies become and the more astonishingly they fit subsequent fulfillments as history repeats itself in its endless process of teaching us that it teaches us nothing.
     
    #3 siti, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    He wasn't wrong.....and he is not God. (Matthew 24:36) Those renderings show that human translators didn't have a clue what he was talking about.
    The first rendering is a pathetic translation of the original.

    According to Strongs, the word "generation" used in that verse "genea" can mean......
    1. the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
    2. metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character"
    But this is hardly acknowledged by many translators, so they render Jesus' words as nonsensical.

    Since Jesus was talking about his return in the future, these events described in Matthew 24 would allow his disciples at that time to comprehend the "signs" indicating that Christ was now ruling in heaven. These were the signs of his "presence" (parousia) not of his "manifestation" to judge the world. (These are two separate events)

    Jesus would direct a monumental preaching campaign in "all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" that these were the "last days" before God's Kingdom rule directly intervenes in man's affairs to clean up the rot. (Matthew 24:14; Daniel 2:44) After this witness is given to God's satisfaction, then Jesus will manifest himself to judge the nations....the "end" of this wicked world of mankind will then come.

    The ones he was talking to initially were those assigned to rule with him in heaven, (all of the first Christians were of that group) but there was a problem in choosing these ones once the foretold apostasy set in. They became almost lost in the world of "weeds" (counterfeit Christianity) sown by the devil. It would not be until the "time of the end" began that God would again cleanse his worshippers, and choose the remaining ones of that "generation". This fits the second definition mentioned above.
     
  5. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Deeje - that's pretty rich coming from a JW - for several decades the WT held that that was exactly what it meant - and by WT, we would of course be including the "...group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character" you refer to - presumably meaning that the 20th century Witnesses who promoted the "contemporaneous generation" aka "millions now living" interpretation for several decades, shared the spiritual endowments, pursuits and character of Jesus' earliest disciples and yet were capable of "pathetic" interpretations of scriptural ideas. Somehow that seems almost as blasphemous as suggesting that Jesus made a boo-boo. The Faithful and Discreet Slave stuffed up. Heaven forbid!
     
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  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Oh uh.... are we going to do this again Skwim?;)
     
  7. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Nope, I'll just claim and I qoute my future self "well p00p, I was wrong, oh well!" That's even if I live to 2058, which is looking doubtful. I got 10 years in me for sure, as long as I have my meds. With or without meds 20+ years more is just about impossible.

    Anyways, I am not too worried about if I am right or not. God declared no man shall know the date. So by Gods will alone, no man shall figure out the exact date, so there is no point wasting too much time or energy on it. This was just a fun little research hobby for me, that I enjoy discussing.

    Toodles
     
  8. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I'll be 95 - so you never know.
     
  9. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Meh I got a rare auto-immune disease that causes my immune system to attack my muscle receptors. Basically it blocks my nerves from sending signals to any body parts, body parts that get fatigued are vulnerable. I can rest my legs, back, arms, eyes and throat if they get weak on me. But I can't rest my involuntary muscles like my lungs or my heart (obviously) so it's just a matter of time before one of them stop receiving signals and don't "start" back up on it's own. My lungs have give out on me twice already, and heart once. Luckily, they restarted on their own, but I still had to go to the ER anyways. But my luck will run out one day for sure, and I've made my peace with it.
     
  10. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    A good discussion is here

    Quote
    . It’s a large issue and has several layers. Each one needs careful, patient attention.

    It’s fairly easy to comb through the New Testament superficially and gather a lot of texts together that seem to indicate a false teaching about how quickly the second coming of Jesus would happen. But if you take each one, each text or each group of texts carefully, patiently, and study it out with the help of those who have perhaps given more thought to it, what I have found is that there are explanations of how to understand those texts that do not impute error or false prophecy to what Jesus or the apostles taught.
    Unquote
    by John Piper

    Five pointers on a solution here

    Jesus Said He’d Return Soon, So Where Is He?
     
  11. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I salute your stoicism. I hope its later rather than sooner. In my own case, although I seem to have been blessed with good health so far, I'm currently only ten years off the longevity record for males in my direct paternal line. My Dad died of lung cancer at 66, his Dad, my grandfather, only made it to 59, my great-grandfather 38, g-g-grandfather 41, g-g-g-grandfather 48...before that I'm not sure, but going off the average of the last 5 generations, I'm already on borrowed time. My Dad was remarkably unperturbed (at least outwardly) when he found out he had terminal cancer. I hope I'll be as cool and philosophical about it if it ever happens to me. I did have a bit of a scare about a decade ago when the doctor ordered a biopsy to rule out stomach cancer - but it was ruled out so I guess that wasn't really a fair test. Anyway, I guess we all have to make the most of whatever time we have and I certainly wish you the best in that.
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Ah, but the light on the path gets brighter....understanding is clarified more and more over time....but how would you know? You no longer feed at their table. The FDS are as human as Jesus' apostles were.....why do you expect them to be any more perfect? We get what we need, when we need it. Its always worked for me. I get what I expect....perhaps you didn't.
     
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  13. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Well whatever your doing its working so keep it up! My Grandma lived to be 95, she woke up at 3am every morning to feed her Canaries (she bred and sold em as a profession). Then she would make breakfast for herself then do a 5 mile walk all just before the sunrise. She was a strong woman, and outlived my Grandpa by 25 years. 65 is about as far as males make it in my family. Cancer and on my Dads side, Heart disease on my Moms. I'm 41 now so yeah, I'm gonna do like you said and just make the best of whatever time I have left. I've accomplished most of what I wanted to do, so I'm content regardless. Still would like to visit New Zealand, S. Korea, Japan, China, Mongolia one day. So I'm gonna try to figure that out, if not its ok.

    Anyways thanks for the chat I guess we've derailed the thread enough already. Take care!
     
  14. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Well according to you what I got on the particular passage of scripture in question (at least in the early part of my JW years) was equivalent to a "pathetic translation". If what the FDS dished up 25-50 years back was "pathetic" what confidence do you have that it is any better now? And if the light really does get brighter over time, shouldn't they be doing better now than Jesus and his disciples did 2000 years ago? Are they?
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Auto immune diseases are on the rise....conventional medicine has no answers because they cannot acknowledge the cause. Ever thought of integrative medicine. I have heard that they have had really good success with auto immune disorders and even some cancers. There are clinics in Mexico I believe and of course in Asia. They have a holistic approach and tackle the cause of the problem rather than just the symptoms of the disease. That is the path I would take if I ever needed that kind of help.
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Of course....its what we need, when we need it, so I follow the direction of the only organization who have managed to preach the Kingdom message in all the inhabited earth before the end comes....one people...one message for all....every day is one day closer.....I look forward to it with eager anticipation.....how about you?
     
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  17. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    So sorry to hear but... this life is not the end.... hope in God!
     
  18. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure we have really. If you take a less literalist approach to what Jesus said and apply it individually, none of us know the "day or hour" that "the sun will be darkened and the moon not give its light" in our own lives...(whatever we believe about what may or may not happen thereafter), I think that puts the things Jesus said about how we should treat others with compassion and dignity (thinking parable of the sheep and goats, golden rule, etc. etc. here) in the context of doing the best we can to follow his teaching and example (whether or not the account is literally true) before the sun darkens on our own life. Nobody can escape that eventuality (whatever we believe about....etc) and nobody can do anything about anything after that (Ecclesiastes 9:5) - at least not until we are ushered into the "afterlife" if there is one. Personally, I don't believe there is - but surely its much better to close our eyes for the last time having done the best we could for our fellow man, than to regret a self-serving lifestyle when its too late to do anything about it. To me the latter would be "hell".

    Anyway, to put it in the context of the OP - I don't think Jesus was wrong. First, Jesus might not even have said it anyway because it is remarkably like something that was already said by whoever write the prophecy of Joel (Joel 3:15) - and I don't know, maybe others too. The gospel writers do seem to have had a penchant for putting the words of the prophets and psalmists in Jesus' mouth - or maybe Jesus really was an avid prophet-quoter - but it certainly wasn't Jesus' original ideas that were being expressed. Secondly, whoever did write those words of (or as if uttered by) Jesus might very well not have been thinking of a literal fulfillment in any case - I honestly think it is unlikely that they were because I reckon even then people were smart enough to know that suns don't just go out. And third, even if I am wrong on both counts - is there any reason why one should not take a piece of literature - like Matthew 24 - and draw from it whatever life lessons they can see in it?
     
  19. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Not on your life - Amos 5:18; Isaiah 5:19. I certainly hope it doesn't come on a day when I have called the FDS interpretations "pathetic" - that would certainly be a fearful day wouldn't it?
     
  20. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Yeah my Neuologist said that it is unknown still why the immune system does this. It just turned on me one day, and started attacking me. The disease is called Myasthenia Gravis. No cure, but treatment with meds works, and some people can have their thymus gland removed and no more MG. But I dont know if that would work for me or not. Will certainly look into it, if meds start to lose potency.

    Honestly I think it's just Gods will. This is how He intends for me to die. I was born with the disease.There is no escaping it. In all honesty, I got lucky as it didn't present symptoms for the first 30 years and even then I made it another 9 years before it became debilitating. Usually it presents itself shortly after puberty maybe early 20's. So I count that as a win in my book. I'm in a MG group on FB and just about everyone else is in their 20's in college, with their whole life ahead of them. I can't imagine being that young and struck down with MG. It would ruin (arguably) the best years of your life.

    I see nothing wrong with that. Matthew is one of my favorite books. Matter of fact, Matthew was the book I gave my first sermon on when I was ordained. Just as a Deacon though. I am no Pastor, I lack the people skills to Pastor.
     
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