So This Is Christmas

[Salvador]

As a former Christian, I still like celebrating Christmas because I like Christmas carols, Christmas
trees, ornaments, Santa, elves, holiday decorations, Christmas lights, shopping, and wrapping presents ..Merry Christmas, everybody!

..

 

[InChrist]

Jeremiah chapter 10 calls them heathens instead of Pagans and specifically talks about decorating trees. We are told not to follow these customs.

I looks like Jeremiah 10 was referring to taking trees, craftsmen carving them into an idols, plating them with silver and gold, and people worshiping these idols as gods instead of the God who created heaven and earth. Don't see any connection to Christmas, Christmas tree decorations, or acknowledging and rejoicing in the birth of Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth who came to earth, became human, and went to the cross to offer salvation and eternal life to all who believe.

 

[InChrist]

As a former Christian, I still like celebrating Christmas because I like Christmas carols, Christmas
trees, ornaments, Santa, elves, holiday decorations, Christmas lights, shopping, and wrapping presents ..Merry Christmas, everybody!

..

Beautiful music!

 

[Altfish]

I would venture a guess that there are those who don't identify with Christianity that celebrate Christmas...that there are those that even call it Christmas.

Are you a non-Christian that celebrates Christmas? If so, define your worldview and tell us why you celebrate it.

It is a holiday time that non-Christians embrace.
I am a humanist with no religious affiliation but I love Xmas, we get over a week off work - I can hardly be grumpy and insist on going in.
I love the presents, parties, family get togethers. Xmas morning we usually visit our long passed relatives at the Crem, then to the pub where we'll meet people that we've not seen since last Xmas; then onto someone's house (often ours) for Xmas dinner.
No sign or mention of religion.
What is not to like?

 

[Augustus]

Jeremiah chapter 10 calls them heathens instead of Pagans and specifically talks about decorating trees. We are told not to follow these customs.

How do you get 'decorating trees' from this? It's clearly talking about carved, wooden idols:

they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

 

[Augustus]

Are you a non-Christian that celebrates Christmas? If so, define your worldview and tell us why you celebrate it.

It's a cultural tradition and a reason to have good food and drink with family and friends.

Would be silly not to...

 

[SalixIncendium]

Specifically its talking about a carved wooen idol worshiped as a god.
But really all Christian customs have pagan origins simply by virtue of formulating in a pagan environment. From the flood story to demons and devils to the trinity to hell, all draw on earlier pagan mythos.

I looks like Jeremiah 10 was referring to taking trees, craftsmen carving them into an idols...

How do you get 'decorating trees' from this? It's clearly talking about carved, wooden idols:

they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

Does it really speak of carving wooden idols, though? Or is that simply how people choose to interpret it? Let's examine the text in question:


From the King James Version...

Jeremiah 10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 10 - King James Version


It really doesn't speak specifically of "carved wooden idols." I think it can be interpreted as the custom of cutting down a tree, trimming, mounting it, and decorating it.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I am a humanist with no religious affiliation but I love Xmas, we get over a week off work...

Are you a teacher? If not, what profession gives you over a week off for the holiday?

 

[Altfish]

Are you a teacher? If not, what profession gives you over a week off for the holiday?

Construction industry and it closes down over Xmas; in the UK many people are off between Xmas and New Year, this year I finish on 21st December and am not back in until 2nd January*


* But because I'm off sick getting a new knee it doesn't really affect me.

 

[Kenny]

Jeremiah chapter 10 calls them heathens instead of Pagans and specifically talks about decorating trees. We are told not to follow these customs.

I take the Romans 14 approach. If your position of faith is don't celebrate as unto the Lord, then don't do it. If your faith gives you the berth of grace and you can do it unto the Lord, then do it. Just don't try to be a stumbling block to others.

 

[Augustus]

Does it really speak of carving wooden idols, though? Or is that simply how people choose to interpret it?

To me it's pretty clear it is talking about idols, not decorated trees:

they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


They aren't decorating a tree with silver and gold tinsel but an idol with actual silver and gold, which 'like a scarecrow' can't speak, and must be carried. As it is just an idol, it can do nothing for you.

Makes little sense in the context of a tree.

Continues:

No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power

So it's comparing their mighty God with wooden idols.

Continues again:

They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.

I'd say that's pretty clear.

 

[blü 2]

Are you a non-Christian that celebrates Christmas?

Dang right.

If so, define your worldview

I'm philosophically a materialist, politically moderate left, and fond of the question 'What's true in reality?' and a good party.

tell us why you celebrate it.

It hasn't been a Christian celebration since Dickens' day or earlier ─ A Christmas Carol is not about religion but human decency. Christmas works beautifully a time to celebrate humankind inclusively ─ good will to all ─ to remember friends near and far, and to get the tribe together for cheer, exchange of presents, and the marvel of little grandkids.

Our tradition is a big dinner on Christmas eve, everyone bringing something special, the venue rotated around the tribe, which can involve other cities. Staying over is the rule, which can see sleeping bags and antique mattresses in odd places. We get up when ready on Christmas morning and have breakfast. About 10.30-11.00 am we gather in the relevant living room, where there's a decorated tree of respectable size with the presents piled under it. We have champagne, Christmas cake, and a few usual specialties like kipferln, then someone is volunteered to be Santa, puts on the red hat and passes the presents out from under the tree while the cake and champagne supply is maintained. Then a large lunch, an afternoon sleep for those who feel like it, a walk (weather permitting) or whatever. Throughout the day and evening we ring people who can't be there. In the evening a light dinner of leftovers.

Works for me.

 

[SalixIncendium]

To me it's pretty clear it is talking about idols, not decorated trees:

they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”


They aren't decorating a tree with silver and gold tinsel but an idol with actual silver and gold, which 'like a scarecrow' can't speak, and must be carried. As it is just an idol, it can do nothing for you.

Makes little sense in the context of a tree.

Continues:

No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power

So it's comparing their mighty God with wooden idols.

Continues again:

They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.

I'd say that's pretty clear.

Not necessarily. In the KJV, there is no mention of the word "idol." In the New Revised Standard Version makes mention of the instruction given by idols is no better than wood.

I'm not saying that your interpretation is incorrect, but I am not seeing any mention of carving idols.

Aspects of nature were revered as divine by "heathens." Is it unreasonable or unrealistic to think that there were those that revered trees themselves as sacred, cut them down, trimmed them, and adorned them with silver and gold decorations? Can we rule out such an interpretation? If so, why?

 

[Augustus]

Not necessarily. In the KJV, there is no mention of the word "idol." In the New Revised Standard Version makes mention of the instruction given by idols is no better than wood.

I'm not saying that your interpretation is incorrect, but I am not seeing any mention of carving idols.

Aspects of nature were revered as divine by "heathens." Is it unreasonable or unrealistic to think that there were those that revered trees themselves as sacred, cut them down, trimmed them, and adorned them with silver and gold decorations? Can we rule out such an interpretation? If so, why?

Within context, I'd say that is highly unlikely.

The verse later talks about graven images, again continuing the motif that they are powerless: "Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them."

In the Bible there is plenty about idolatry, and, to the best of my knowledge, not much about people worshipping decorated trees.

Also would people who revered trees as sacred cut them down?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Also would people who revered trees as sacred cut them down?

You're right. No one has every done anything quite so silly in the name of religion.

 

[BSM1]

You're right. No one has every done anything quite so silly in the name of religion.

But...oh, wait...sarcasm. Merry Christmas.

 

[Windwalker]

It is not about when. It is about how. We should not use heathen methods to celebrate such as decorating trees or hiding eggs at Easter, which is also pagan.

Why not? Why does it matter to God? Does God require the exact coinage in the precise combinations of currency in order to hand out gumballs of Grace, according to your beliefs? Is he kind of like the parent who tells their child, "No, I'm not going to love you unless you pick up your room like I told you to"? That sort of conditional love, which is not experienced as love by the child? Is that God to you? How secure in that sort of "love" do you feel? Very secure?

 

[oldbadger]

Construction industry and it closes down over Xmas; in the UK many people are off between Xmas and New Year, this year I finish on 21st December and am not back in until 2nd January*


* But because I'm off sick getting a new knee it doesn't really affect me.

Good luck with the knee operation.
I hope you will push through pain barriers afterwards and work that knee .......... If you do it could all be sorted out within 12-16 weeks. If you don't it could be hell-for-ever.

One of my neighbours is back at ballroom dancing after 12 weeks of physio.

 

[Altfish]

Good luck with the knee operation.
I hope you will push through pain barriers afterwards and work that knee .......... If you do it could all be sorted out within 12-16 weeks. If you don't it could be hell-for-ever.

One of my neighbours is back at ballroom dancing after 12 weeks of physio.

Thanks, doing ok, first post op physio appointment today, she was happy enough.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Why not? Why does it matter to God? Does God require the exact coinage in the precise combinations of currency in order to hand out gumballs of Grace, according to your beliefs? Is he kind of like the parent who tells their child, "No, I'm not going to love you unless you pick up your room like I told you to"? That sort of conditional love, which is not experienced as love by the child? Is that God to you? How secure in that sort of "love" do you feel? Very secure?

Yes, why not? Because God says so. He does not want us to follow heathen practices. If you really love God you should want to act in a way that He approves.