Featured So Jesus is not God?

Choose any of the fifteen or more that I gave you. Each of them is insistently incompatible with Jesus being God, and each is from the horse's mouth.

And since you have no case where Jesus claims to be God, under our agreed rules that makes the score not less than 15-0 in my favor.

I don't recall that we said all scripture was equally authoritative. I take it that words attributed to Jesus in direct speech in the gospels are the most authoritative of all. Should Paul contradict Jesus, for instance, Paul would lose, no?

And all the other arguments didn't arise until the late fourth century, long after Jesus' death, when, as you know, to satisfy the religious politics of the day, the Trinity doctrine, incoherence and all, was invented.

It's this anachrony you keep ignoring. No such issue existed in Jesus' time.

Who gives a tart about blasphemy? Much as some churches like to do so, you can't alter the facts by declaring them blasphemous. (You remind me of Wojtyła forbidding the faithful to discuss the ordination of women as priests.) And in this case it would make Jesus a fifteen-fold blasphemer or worse ─ there's a dingbat notion for you.

Of course it couldn't have been blasphemy before the latter fourth century anyway, since there was no Trinity doctrine before then. And it's incoherent anyway, so no one can say what it means, hence how any remark about it could be blasphemous.


Have you started your Trinity thread yet?

 

No sign of Jesus claiming to be God.

Quite a lot of evidence of people from much later centuries and millennia wanting, wanting, wanting Jesus to be God, though.

 

Then explain why Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega in verse 11 and the First and the Last in verse 17.

You're loosely interpreting the thing. There is still a clear distinction between Jesus and His followers. Jesus actually claims He will be in them and the Father will be in Him. So that's a huge distinction. Jesus also called Himself the vine whereas everyone else would be only branches on the vine. (John 15:5) The point here is that the fullness of Divine nature dwells in Jesus' bodily. (Colossians 2:8-9) And if you want the holy Spirit of God; then you have to be connected to Jesus. That way the Spirit will flow from Him into you.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 1:18 is not a quote from Jesus directly; but a quote from John and what it means is that Jesus the Son declares the Father by being the express image or manifestation of the Father.

This is the idea in 1 Timothy 6:14-16 where we see Jesus will "show" the unseeable God.

1 Timothy 6:14-16
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Yes, in the flesh He certainly had all His power from God. But in John 8:42 the idea of proceeding from God implies you are God. We see that the Spirit of Truth (John 15:26) and the Word of God (Matthew 4:4) proceed from God. So Jesus claiming to have proceeded and come forth from God is a claim to Divine nature.

That doesn't negate my point. Jesus claims to have wanted to gather Jerusalem for a long time.

Well I agree with you my wording was off. But I believe no one can direct the Spirit of God except God Himself. If Jesus claims to send the Spirit then that means He is God.

See Luke 24:49

So? He still has power to forgive sins and that should normally be only for God. The fact that He's in the flesh means He only does His Father's will. (The Spirit of God) and not His (flesh's) will.

I think unless you understand how Jesus is both flesh and blood and yet in Spirit Divine you won't see my side of the argument.

Elsewhere Jesus does claim to send it as I pointed out. But I digress, the "another" counselor is the self-same Jesus but in Spirit form rather than flesh. That's why Jesus says He is with you but will be in you.

Yes He is the mediator as the scripture says. That's not a new idea but that doesn't negate the fact that He claims to be the Truth. If He is the Truth then He is God.

That's a good reason why we know Jesus is God. All glory that you give to Jesus truly goes to God instead. Yet, God says He will not give His glory to another. (Isaiah 42:8, Isaiah 48:11) But Jesus claims He will return in the "glory of the Father". (Matthew 16:27, Luke 9:26, Mark 8:38)

That clearly means when Jesus returns it will be in the glory of God.

And? I'm making the case by bringing up these verses that Jesus is God manifest. If you honor the manifestation of God then you honor God.

Yet Jesus claims that no one has greater love than the one who lays down His life for his friend. (John 15:13) So clearly God has to have the greatest love. (1 John 4:8) Therefore God has to lay down His own life.

Secondly, Jesus claims that the good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep. (John 10:11) So again, God is a Shepherd (Psalm 23) and must give His life for the sheep.

 

Nothing that came out of the mouth of the prophet Jesus, were his words.

Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS that he shall speak in my name, I will punish, etc.

The words that Jesus spoke were the words of the 'Son of Man,' The MOST HIGH in the creation, who gave his eternal life that mankind might live, and whose spirit descended upon the man Jesus as these heavenly words were heard, "You are my Son, [My chosen heir] this day I have begotten thee."

 

I believe I can understand that because people sometimes think the body is essential to God and it is not. However for identity purposes it works fine. We don't usually identify ourselves by our spirit but it is important for Jesus to do so to justify His authority.

 

Using the Bible to confirm itself is nonsense. So I will write a book indicating that Im God, then when people disagree, I can then say, "Look its written in this book"

Really.........

 

Well I believe that the body is essential to God.

The image that you see---it isn’t really me
It’s but the womb in which I’m being formed
For I am spirit—I am mind
And it’s the only place you’ll find
WHO I AM, until the day I’m finally born.
For I will not be free, until this body that you see
Has returned to the dust from whence it came
It’s then that I’ll be born from this womb in which I’m formed
To continue on in life’s eternal game.

The root to the word “BRAHMAN” originally meant “SPEECH”, much the same as the “LOGOS” is said to mean ‘WORD.

The Greek word “LOGOS” which has been translated as “WORD”, should be seen as ‘The thoughts in the mind which are to be expressed.

The term, “LOGOS” pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vach.' Vach means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vach has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

John 1: 1; In the beginning was the Word=Logos and the Logos was God. And the supreme personality or controlling mind to have developed within the invisible eternal body of ever evolving information, was “THE LIGHT OF MAN” All the information, knowledge, wisdom and insight, gained from mankind, the MOST HIGH in the previous creation, who was the Light and life of that ever growing body of information, which is called God. All things came into existence through him, by him and for him. Without him, nothing exists.

You, the invisible mind that has developed within that created body, are the controlling godhead to that body, with which you are one being. But your words or your speech, is merely the expression of the thoughts that are stored in the mind that is you. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, only the mind that develops within that body.

The Logos/word, should be seen as the gathered information of past aeons that is waiting to be expressed. The LOGOS is in fact, the invisible living universal mind, in which is gathered all of the information of every universal body throughout all eternity and should be seen as the essential divine reality of the universe the eternal spirit from which all being originates, and to which all must return.

You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, and It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information = SPIRIT is gathered.

“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become who you are, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its earthly tabernacle=tent, which is your body.

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality = “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”

Then of the Thee in Me who works behind
The veil, I lifted up my hands to find
A lamp amid the Darkness; and I heard,
As from Without__ “The Me within Thee is blind.”.... By Omar Khayyam.

When the body in which you [the mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body: “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU = the mind=spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force=soul, from which it will be resurrected in the next cycle of universal activity. Unless of course, the information=spirit that is “YOU” has condemned ‘WHO YOU ARE’ and ‘WHO YOU ARE’ having being condemned by ‘YOU’, is then divided from the universal life-force, which is the second death. For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul. Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”

Are you true to "WHO YOU ARE?" Or do you condemn your parental spirit?

 

Please clarify those references. In Revelation all the claims to be alpha and omega that I can find are attributed to God.

Meanwhile we have the fifteen or more statements attributed to Jesus in direct speech which I set out previously, each making a clear distinction between Jesus as the envoy of God, and God as the boss, whom Jesus serves and tells us he worships ('my god' John 20:17) adding that God is 'the only true god' (John 17:3) and the source of any power that Jesus has ('the Son can do nothing of his own accord' John 5:19; 'I can do nothing on my own authority' (John 5:30); 'I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me' (John 8:42); 'My Father [...] is greater than all' (John 10:29).

So Jesus is telling it as it is ─ one God who is Jesus' God, and one servant of God, revealer of God, special envoy of God, mediator of man and God, Jesus.

Or else ─ as you claim ─ he's really God all along and therefore a deliberate liar and deceiver; and on the cross he cries out, 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?'; and being God, is his own Father, begging the question where the Father got that title from.

Further, your argument is an anachrony. There was no doctrine of Jesus being God, no notion of the Trinity, until the latter 4th century. And all the other texts you cited to support the Trinity notion would never have occurred to a reader who had not heard of the Trinity doctrine ─ as Jesus had not, since it wasn't invented till towards the end of the 4th century CE.

And that doctrine is incoherent, as the churches admit by calling it 'a mystery in the strict sense' in that it cannot be found by reason but only by revelation, and when revealed it cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason (their words, not mine) ─ meaning, as I keep pointing out to Oeste, that it's a nonsense. (EITHER God is ⅓ Father and ⅓ Son and ⅓ Ghost, OR the Father is 100% of God and separately from that Jesus is 100% of God and separately from both the Ghost is 100% of God = 300% = 3 gods. BUT instead, the Trinity doctrine claims that 1+1+1=1 ─ which as the churches and I agree is incoherent (though while we agree it makes no sense, they prefer to call it 'a mystery in the strict sense' and I prefer to call it 'a nonsense'.)

So not only do you accuse Jesus of anachrony, but you also accuse him of believing nonsense. A most unkind view, it seems to me.


And since you want to resort to statements not attributed to Jesus, I can give you these ones which also clearly distinguish God from Jesus:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ [...]​

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
​

To which we can add:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
​

Can't say plainer than that.

​

 

Good sound logic comments, your speaking to the deaf & blind my friend

 

Hey my friend, Im happy for to you believe what ever you want.

 

Since the NT expressly and repeatedly contradicts the Trinity doctrine, it seems an abuse of history to say otherwise.

But should someone wish to believe in the Trinity doctrine and make no claim that the NT supports it, I have no dog in that fight ─ like you I regard it as a matter for them.

 

In Revelation 1:17-18 we know Jesus calls Himself the first and the last because He says He was dead and is now alive. This statement "the first and the last" was only previously said by God of Himself in Isaiah 44:6.

And in Revelation 1:11 Jesus also says He is the Alpha and Omega but of course not in your RSV which is not trustworthy.

But even in the RSV it is obviously Jesus talking in Revelation 22:12-16 when He again says He is the Alpha and Omega.

Jesus being the Word of God makes it clear He is the Alpha and Omega because words are comprised of letters. Isn't that obvious?

All you can do is argue Jesus' humanity as if it proves He is also not God. No one is even trying to argue against Jesus' human nature which is very important part of the equation. I can show you why God needed to become a human being if you like.

None of that is false. All of that is true. Yet, we know from the scriptures that Jesus is obviously also God.

Let's take Isaiah 9:6 for example:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given:" (There is your human man child Jesus! Very important)
"and the government shall be upon his shoulder:" (This means He will be given great power an authority in human form. Again this is really important and I could get into it more.)

But then the verse goes on to describe Jesus as "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father". So Jesus is more than just the Son of man. He is God in the Spirit and human in the flesh.

"and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace."

Suppose the flesh cries out My God why have you forsaken me?" The flesh had to die.

God is two natures. God in His love nature had to have a sacrifice to appease the consuming fire side of His nature.

So He had to have a human body to die for atonement. This is Jesus the "Lamb of God" that "takes away the sins of the world". Otherwise who could be saved from the wrath of God? For He is a consuming fire. So He took on human nature and conquered it. As He said "I have overcome the world". The last act of submission of the flesh to the Spirit was death because it was the hardest and final thing for the flesh to do. (see John 12:25)

Why do you insist I even believe the trinity doctrine? I definitely don't. You should read early church writings and the writings of let's say Ignatius who make it clear they know Jesus is God. Ignatius knew Paul in the flesh btw. What I present is non-trinitarian but affirms that Jesus is God. The belief that Jesus is God is from the earliest church history.

As stated I'm not trinitarian. Leave that for Oeste to explain please.

For me it's simple enough:
God is one person. He's the Father through the creation of children. He is a Spirit (John 4:24) and God is holy. (Leviticus 11:44) So no wonder they call Him the holy Spirit. The Son of God is God manifest in the flesh. He was born of the virgin so He had a human (mortal) body. Therefore because He has this created body (Hebrews 10:5); He has a God(a Creator) and a Father(begotten of the holy Spirit). But that doesn't mean He was not indwelled with the fullness of God's nature bodily. (Colossians 2:8-9) If that's not simple enough; then maybe nothing is.

As Paul says you are complete in Him who is the head of all principality and power. That means all that you ever need of God is inside the man Jesus Christ. You need no other. This is why He (the Son of man) becomes Vine whereas all others are the "branches". Because the Spirit of God flows from Him into them.

Great scriptures.

1 Corinthians 8:6 proves there is only one God (the Father) for the church and yet Arianists (whom you seem to champion) claim there are two gods. Because they interpret John 1:1 to mean there is a greater God and a lesser -- lower case -- god. 1 Corinthians 8:6 (thankfully) refutes this false teaching; stating very plainly that for the church there is only one God.

Philippians 2:11 proves that Jesus is the Father manifest and no other because whenever we confess Jesus (The Son of man) we glorify the Father and not anyone else. So Jesus is the name given among men whereby they must be saved. Because in Him dwells all the fullness of the Divine nature. Jesus is the name of God manifest in the flesh. So everyone who wants to glorify the Father goes to Jesus and calls on that name.

1 Timothy 2:5 proves that the man Jesus is mediator which is a great topic but doesn't refute the fact that Jesus is God.

 

You do realise of course, that not one word that came from the mouth of the prophet Jesus, originated from him, but were the words of the Lord that he was commanded to say.

In reference to the prophet Jesus, we read in Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I will punish, etc.

Jesus admits that he spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say by our Lord God and saviour, who chose him as the one to speak in his name, “Who I Am,” and Jesus says in John 5: 24; “Whoever hear my words (The words that he was commanded to say) and believes in “HIM” who sent me, has eternal life.

So we must believe in the Lord, who put HIS WORDS into the mouth of his chosen prophet Jesus, in order to inherit eternal life.

John 14: 24; “And the word which you hear is not mine, but ‘THE’ Fathers who sent me. Not “MY Father” but THE Father of us all: “Our Father who is in heaven.”

Whose words were these in reference to the body of Jesus which had been filled by the spirit=information=words of the Lord which had descended upon him in the form of a dove? “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by “Who I Am,” who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. _________________________

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who had chosen Jesus as his earthly host body=Temple, through which he could reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice he makes for mankind and who had put his spirit=words into the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus; who said through Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

 

Of course Jesus spoke all through the Anointing. No one's arguing against that. But whatever He testifies of Himself is true. So for example in Revelation 1:17-18 we see Jesus call Himself the First and the Last. A title only said of God previously.

However, as for Jesus raising Himself. Jesus claimed to have the authority to raise Himself from the dead in John 10:18. The Father told Him that He(Jesus) had the power to both give His life and take it back again.

 

If you're right then Jesus was an outright liar in all those quotes I provided. Paul got it wrong too. And the author of 1 Timothy.

If only they'd all waited another three or four hundred years it would all have become clear, right?

That isn't my argument.

My argument is in several parts.

First, Jesus makes fifteen or more statement none of which is compatible with the Trinity doctrine.

At the same time, he never once claims to be God. Instead he constantly identifies himself as the envoy and servant of God, who has no powers on his own account, but solely those that God lets him have.

Two, Jesus was a circumcised Jew in the stories. The god of the Jews is the nothing-like-Trinitarian god. Jesus' remarks about God are completely consistent with the Jewish view ─ as you'd expect.

Three, the Trinity doctrine is a 4th century invention. It didn't exist in Jesus' day. It arose because of the church politics of later centuries.

Four, the Trinity doctrine is a nonsense, both in my view and in the churches' view.

No one is even trying to argue against Jesus' human nature which is very important part of the equation. I can show you why God needed to become a human being if you like.

No, we don't know that. Instead we have Jesus' clear and repeated denials that he's God.

Let's not. Jesus is not mentioned once in the Tanakh ─ ask any Jew. The messiah mentioned there is a political and military leader who will restore the Jewish state to independence and preferably dominance. The 'suffering servant' in Isaiah is the nation of Israel. Oh, and Jesus was not called Immanuel. And the government was never on Jesus' shoulder or anywhere near it.

Why would that worry God even for a second? It wouldn't even involve pain unless he wanted it to.

But he's still a single God and Jesus is simply his chosen envoy. We have Jesus' repeated word for it.

Okay, you don't ─ my apologies for my error.

You're saying I should believe them on this matter rather than Jesus? That's ridiculous. Or Jesus is a liar. No third way.

So God is one person, and Jesus was really God walking around on earth and lying about his identity.

While he was on earth, no one was in heaven, because there's only one of him.

And when he cried out on the cross, My God, why have you forsaken me? that was a calculated deceit to protect his disguise.

Have I understood you correctly?